[TWoW Spoilers] Barristan

[Mrmanakan]

"I don't think you have to be a Targaryen to ride a dragon.  After all, the Targaryens were not the only family in Valyria.  Heck, given the evidence we have it appears the Targaryens were either not very well respected or even exiled from Valyria."

If I remember right the targarayens were the ruling family of valaria and that a part of the family (Aegon and his sisters part) was exiled before the fall. Atleast that was my impression from the little tidbits given. I'd imagine at that point the targarayens were probably a huge family and that valyria was also old so there was most likely many branches of targaryens. I believe the blood is important, although Bran maybe able to contradict this with his warging. The dragons know who Dany is, does she? Martins made "the blood of the dragon" seem like its a big deal and her being of old valyria and all that. My theory is bran will be able to maybe warg the dragons but he'll never ride one. That's why I liked the R+L=J so much but now he's dead atleast ATM. Dany is totally one of the main protagonists but I feel like they're multiple protagonists, tyrion is just as important as Dany and bran may prove to be the same, although I feel like he's getting played or something sketchy is going on in that story line....I.e. cold hands was basically a whitewalker. And they're playing into Brans dreams and ambitions as he is young and easy to manipulate. Anyways dany's story (minus the redudance of her sittin on daario's cock or mereense cock in general in dwd) is fascinating and her last chapter in dwd made me yearn for more. In fact her chapters in the next book are the ones I'm anticipating the most. I have a feeling it'll be her going to vaes dothrak before back to mereen. She will prove her strength to the khalasar and finally have her true khalasar, she has to goto asshai too in this book, I'd imagine...atleast theyve been hinting at that for uh 4 books now, well I guess 3 (bc of feast for crows). Anyways long story short targaryens and dragons are linked like Starks to the north (trees and animals)

[Ponys123]

Valyria had no ruling family, it was a republic. What do you think the Volantenes modelled their government on?

[aryagonnakill]

"I don't think you have to be a Targaryen to ride a dragon. After all, the Targaryens were not the only family in Valyria. Heck, given the evidence we have it appears the Targaryens were either not very well respected or even exiled from Valyria."

If I remember right the targarayens were the ruling family of valaria and that a part of the family (Aegon and his sisters part) was exiled before the fall. Atleast that was my impression from the little tidbits given. I'd imagine at that point the targarayens were probably a huge family and that valyria was also old so there was most likely many branches of targaryens. I believe the blood is important, although Bran maybe able to contradict this with his warging. The dragons know who Dany is, does she? Martins made "the blood of the dragon" seem like its a big deal and her being of old valyria and all that. My theory is bran will be able to maybe warg the dragons but he'll never ride one. That's why I liked the R+L=J so much but now he's dead atleast ATM. Dany is totally one of the main protagonists but I feel like they're multiple protagonists, tyrion is just as important as Dany and bran may prove to be the same, although I feel like he's getting played or something sketchy is going on in that story line....I.e. cold hands was basically a whitewalker. And they're playing into Brans dreams and ambitions as he is young and easy to manipulate. Anyways dany's story (minus the redudance of her sittin on daario's cock or mereense cock in general in dwd) is fascinating and her last chapter in dwd made me yearn for more. In fact her chapters in the next book are the ones I'm anticipating the most. I have a feeling it'll be her going to vaes dothrak before back to mereen. She will prove her strength to the khalasar and finally have her true khalasar, she has to goto asshai too in this book, I'd imagine...atleast theyve been hinting at that for uh 4 books now, well I guess 3 (bc of feast for crows). Anyways long story short targaryens and dragons are linked like Starks to the north (trees and animals)

I'm sorry but thats not correct. The post you quoted was correct. You can find this info right on the wiki, and probably on the app.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Valyria had no ruling family, it was a republic. What do you think the Volantenes modelled their government on?

You may be right, but it is less than perfectly clear. The word “republic” does not occur anywhere in the first five books, but certainly the Volantene systems of government is more reminiscent of the ancient republics like Athens or Venice than it is of anything else, including our own prevailing system.

The Wiki says that Valyrian system of government was a “freehold”, that it was (somehow) governed by the “freeborn landholders”. The word “freehold” does occur 16 times over the course of the first five books, almost always in association with old Valyria.

• Game: It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers.
  
• Clash: In olden days, our island was the westernmost outpost of the great Freehold of Valyria.
  
• Storm: For the Freehold had dragons, and the Empire had none.
  
• Feast: We have flowered in Braavos amongst these northern fogs, but we first took root in Valyria, amongst the wretched slaves who toiled in the deep mines beneath the Fourteen Flames that lit the Freehold’s nights of old.
  
• Feast: Red gold and yellow gold and silver were reckoned to be more precious than the lives of slaves, for slaves were cheap in the old Freehold.
  
• Feast: The dragonlords of the old Freehold were strong in sorcery, and lesser men defied them at their peril.
  
• Feast: Others insist he was a freeholder’s son, born of noble stock.
  
• Feast: The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and
  
• Feast: The Targaryens are the blood of the dragon, descended from the high lords of the ancient Freehold of Valyria, their heritage marked by lilac, indigo, and violet eyes and hair of silver-gold.
  
• Dance: The Freehold’s grasp had reached as far as Dragonstone, but never to the mainland of Westeros itself.
  
• Dance: Dragon roads, men called the great stone roadways of the Freehold, but the one that ran eastward from Volantis to Meereen had earned a more sinister name: the demon road.
  
• Dance: Volantis is a freehold, like Valyria of old.
  
• Dance: What he really wanted was the complete text of The Fires of the Freehold, Galendro’s history of Valyria.
  
• Dance: “After the Doom it pleased the Volantenes to consider themselves the heirs of the Freehold and rightful rulers of the world, but they were divided as to how dominion might best be achieved.
  
• Dance: One was old and one was young and one had lost an ear, but all three had the white-blond hair and smooth fair skin of Lys, where the blood of the old Freehold still ran strong.
  
• Dance: The Targaryens are the blood of the dragon, descended from the high lords of the ancient Freehold of Valyria, their heritage marked by lilac, indigo, and violet eyes and hair of silver-gold.
  

Freeholders though they may have been, the sorcerous dragonlords of George Martin’s Valyria appear to have been just as feared — and as hated — as were the sorcerous dragonlords of Michael Moorcock’s Melniboné.

There are many other parallels between Valyria and Melniboné, including each having a storied 10,000-year history, notable vestiges of the Atlantis myth and its cataclysm, widespread slavery, weird weather apparently controlled by (or itself controlling) some sort of magical intervention, a connection between the rulers and their dragons inculcated since birth (think gifts of eggs), the principal city guarded by sorcerous seas, the eventual magical destruction of that principal city, using special horns to control their dragons, riding their dragons into battle, the practice of capturing a dragon’s breath in a bottle for later use (ok, that’s maybe a stretch, but we do not know where dragonfire comes from), albino sorcerors kept magically alive, magical ancestral swords, the over-arching them of an ageless struggle between polar opposites (ice and fire, law and chaos), and the dragonlords’ alignment with the consuming fire/chaos end of that teeter-totter instead of to the preserving ice/law end of it.

Edited April 14, 2013 by CrypticWeirwood

[Ponys123]

Targaryens were obviously a Targaryen noble family, but Valyria has no ruling family. If you believe I am so stupid as to imply a modern democracy, then it's not my problem.

Republic doesn't mean there are no noble families, and noble families don't mean that there's no republic. Republic = a system of government without a monarch. Take republican Rome for example - it had a clear cut aristocracy, but no one in their right mind could claim it had a single ruling family. Valyria was a freeholder republic, like Volantis - with elected triarchs (consuls) and, presumably, senate-like body.

You pulled the ruling family part out of your ass.

[gougef]

Targaryens were obviously a Targaryen noble family, but Valyria has no ruling family. If you believe I am so stupid as to imply a modern democracy, then it's not my problem.

Republic doesn't mean there are no noble families, and noble families don't mean that there's no republic. Republic = a system of government without a monarch. Take republican Rome for example - it had a clear cut aristocracy, but no one in their right mind could claim it had a single ruling family. Valyria was a freeholder republic, like Volantis - with elected triarchs (consuls) and, presumably, senate-like body.

You pulled the ruling family part out of your ass.

Also, wasn't Targaryens in "exile" on Dragonstone was the only reason that they survive the doom anyway. May be the reason they didn't invade until after the Doom, they needed "permission."

[aryagonnakill]

Also, wasn't Targaryens in "exile" on Dragonstone was the only reason that they survive the doom anyway. May be the reason they didn't invade until after the Doom, they needed "permission."

Something, either the app or wiki says they had prophetic dreams of the doom and fled.

[tbc]

You may be right, but it is less than perfectly clear. The word “republic” does not occur anywhere in the first five books, but certainly the Volantene systems of government is more reminiscent of the ancient republics like Athens or Venice than it is of anything else, including our own prevailing system.

The Wiki says that Valyrian system of government was a “freehold”, that it was (somehow) governed by the “freeborn landholders”. The word “freehold” does occur 16 times over the course of the first five books, almost always in association with old Valyria.

• Game: It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers.
  
• Clash: In olden days, our island was the westernmost outpost of the great Freehold of Valyria.
  
• Storm: For the Freehold had dragons, and the Empire had none.
  
• Feast: We have flowered in Braavos amongst these northern fogs, but we first took root in Valyria, amongst the wretched slaves who toiled in the deep mines beneath the Fourteen Flames that lit the Freehold’s nights of old.
  
• Feast: Red gold and yellow gold and silver were reckoned to be more precious than the lives of slaves, for slaves were cheap in the old Freehold.
  
• Feast: The dragonlords of the old Freehold were strong in sorcery, and lesser men defied them at their peril.
  
• Feast: Others insist he was a freeholder’s son, born of noble stock.
  
• Feast: The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and
  
• Feast: The Targaryens are the blood of the dragon, descended from the high lords of the ancient Freehold of Valyria, their heritage marked by lilac, indigo, and violet eyes and hair of silver-gold.
  
• Dance: The Freehold’s grasp had reached as far as Dragonstone, but never to the mainland of Westeros itself.
  
• Dance: Dragon roads, men called the great stone roadways of the Freehold, but the one that ran eastward from Volantis to Meereen had earned a more sinister name: the demon road.
  
• Dance: Volantis is a freehold, like Valyria of old.
  
• Dance: What he really wanted was the complete text of The Fires of the Freehold, Galendro’s history of Valyria.
  
• Dance: “After the Doom it pleased the Volantenes to consider themselves the heirs of the Freehold and rightful rulers of the world, but they were divided as to how dominion might best be achieved.
  
• Dance: One was old and one was young and one had lost an ear, but all three had the white-blond hair and smooth fair skin of Lys, where the blood of the old Freehold still ran strong.
  
• Dance: The Targaryens are the blood of the dragon, descended from the high lords of the ancient Freehold of Valyria, their heritage marked by lilac, indigo, and violet eyes and hair of silver-gold.
  

Freeholders though they may have been, the sorcerous dragonlords of George Martin’s Valyria appear to have been just as feared — and as hated — as were the sorcerous dragonlords of Michael Moorcock’s Melniboné.

There are many other parallels between Valyria and Melniboné, including each having a storied 10,000-year history, notable vestiges of the Atlantis myth and its cataclysm, widespread slavery, weird weather apparently controlled by (or itself controlling) some sort of magical intervention, a connection between the rulers and their dragons inculcated since birth (think gifts of eggs), the principal city guarded by sorcerous seas, the eventual magical destruction of that principal city, using special horns to control their dragons, riding their dragons into battle, the practice of capturing a dragon’s breath in a bottle for later use (ok, that’s maybe a stretch, but we do not know where dragonfire comes from), albino sorcerors kept magically alive, magical ancestral swords, the over-arching them of an ageless struggle between polar opposites (ice and fire, law and chaos), and the dragonlords’ alignment with the consuming fire/chaos end of that teeter-totter instead of to the preserving ice/law end of it.

I've been wondering if there aren't paralells between the Doom and the destruction of the Sharom and Collam Daan in TWoT. Admittedly, the pre-Shadow Age of Legends was a techno-utopia rather than a slave society, but I do wonder if the Valyrians hadn't dug into something beneath the Fourteen Fires that destabilised their magic, or would have unbalanced the battle between Ice and Fire.

[mrlukeduke]

I think it's also connected to events at Hardhome.

[Thor Odinson]

It is possible that Dany arrives in Westeros with a unique army of Unsullied, Dothraki, freed slaves and Dragons! I am already drooling :)

My hope is that Daenerys will sail EAST, not west over the Narrow Sea, and invade the Westerlands. I want to see Casterly Rock burn!

[The True Queen]

^lol

Nah, just Cersei. Tyrion wouldn't let his rights be destroyed.

And Dany will go to Asshai, to which most of the novels have alluded. Asshai is the home of the LoL, right? so it's time she became indoctrinated with the magic she needs to...help Jon in the last story fight the great Other.

[Fire Eater]

^lol

Nah, just Cersei. Tyrion wouldn't let his rights be destroyed.

And Dany will go to Asshai, to which most of the novels have alluded. Asshai is the home of the LoL, right? so it's time she became indoctrinated with the magic she needs to...help Jon in the last story fight the great Other.

GRRM said we won't see Asshai, so Dany won't go there.

[MikeDC]

GRRM said we won't see Asshai, so Dany won't go there.

Doesn't mean she can't sail by it. Maybe "we won't see it" just means we don't get a POV character stopping and looking around and doing anything there....

[Fire Eater]

Doesn't mean she can't sail by it. Maybe "we won't see it" just means we don't get a POV character stopping and looking around and doing anything there....

The quickest, safest and easiest way to Westeros would be by the Narrow Sea. Dany will land in the Vale, and won't stop by Asshai. GRRM said we would only see Asshai in flashbacks.

[MikeDC]

The quickest, safest and easiest way to Westeros would be by the Narrow Sea. Dany will land in the Vale, and won't stop by Asshai. GRRM said we would only see Asshai in flashbacks.

1. Except that the path from Mereen to the Narrow Sea appears to be slow, dangerous and difficult.

2. As I said, taking "we won't see Asshai" to mean we won't have an immediate POV perspective doesn't settle the question. Danny could sail right by and not stop and look around. Danny/Tyrion/Barristan/Vicatarion could stop and look around, but we only see a flashback of it. Like pretty much everything else GRRM says, he leaves it open enough that if he wants to, he could switch things up, and I wouldn't expect any certainty at this point

[Thor Odinson]

Well, there're advantages to sailing east. You hit the west coast of Westeros instead of east, far from the main strength concentrated around King's Landing, while at the same time being able to strike directly in the Westerlands, one of the main pillars supporting the current dynasy. Knock out Lannister wealth, supplies, and reinforcements early on, and you severely weaken Tommen's strength.

[JMJ]

I believe GRRM has stated there will not be any circumnavigation. Sorry I don't have the reference. Moreover, we have no idea whether there's another continent in the way. Think North America.

[aryagonnakill]

^ Exactly. The map book shows that Ashai is at most in the middle of Essos not even close to the Eastern edge, and then there is still the Sunset Sea.

[Fire Eater]

1. Except that the path from Mereen to the Narrow Sea appears to be slow, dangerous and difficult.

2. As I said, taking "we won't see Asshai" to mean we won't have an immediate POV perspective doesn't settle the question. Danny could sail right by and not stop and look around. Danny/Tyrion/Barristan/Vicatarion could stop and look around, but we only see a flashback of it. Like pretty much everything else GRRM says, he leaves it open enough that if he wants to, he could switch things up, and I wouldn't expect any certainty at this point

Not as slow and dangerous compared to sailing using the Sunset Sea in uncharted waters that captains don't know. I think you are exaggerating, a fleet made up of Dany's army and her dragons would suffer minimal danger with pirates coming after only the ships that stray behind. Dany won't go to or stop by Asshai. "Pass beneath the shadow" referred to Drogon, whom Hazzea's father referred to as "the winged shadow" he passed over her in the fighting pit.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Fire Eater

[MikeDC]

Not as slow and dangerous compared to sailing using the Sunset Sea in uncharted waters that captains don't know. I think you are exaggerating, a fleet made up of Dany's army and her dragons would suffer minimal danger with pirates coming after only the ships that stray behind. Dany won't go to or stop by Asshai. "Pass beneath the shadow" referred to Drogon, whom Hazzea's father referred to as "the winged shadow" he passed over her in the fighting pit.

I'm not exaggerating because I don't really know. It's not clear what she'll have left after the battle for Mereen, what her stance to Victarion will be, or what Victarion himself might think. In any case, even a large army on boats are at the mercy of all sorts of factors. They have to sail past lots of potentially unfriendly places, and could lose lots due to weather.

On the other hand, I do think if she wins the support of the Dothraki, it'll be feasible to cross Essos via the Dothraki Sea.