Moments of Foreshadowing 4

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

I just came across a nice exchange between Donal Noye and Jon Snow in AGoT that I think foreshadows Jon's being Julius Caesared:

"Yes, life," Noye said. "A long life or a short one, its up to you, Snow. The road you're walking, one of your brothers will slit your throat for you one night.

Oh my god. :eek:

[Ser Wun Wun]

I just came across a nice exchange between Donal Noye and Jon Snow in AGoT that I think foreshadows Jon's being Julius Caesared:

"Yes, life," Noye said. "A long life or a short one, its up to you, Snow. The road you're walking, one of your brothers will slit your throat for you one night.

Very cool

This isn't (in hindsight) as obvious a foreshadowing moment as that, but it is a neat little tie in between Jon's death and something he says in ACOK:

ACOK; Jon

He began to flex his hand, opening and closing the fingers. If he let his sword hand stiffen and grow clumsy, it well might be the end of him, he knew.

Then when he dies:

ADWD; Jon

Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly.

I love the way GRRM does these little tie-ins :)

[FittleLinger]

"Yes, life," Noye said. "A long life or a short one, its up to you, Snow. The road you're walking, one of your brothers will slit your throat for you one night.

Doesn't it sound weird how it sounds like said brother will be doing him a favor? Slit his throat for him? Giving him the rebirth he needs?

[Ice Turtle]

Your husband’s been arrested.”

“Tyrion?” she said, shocked.

“Do you have another husband?

It could be that Sansa marries again while Tyrion still lives.

[SerSeymoreThyme]

Sure, no problem. I am indeed fantastic at getting quotes (CTRL+F all the way). I also have a knack for inventive google searches....not to brag or anything :)

This is from HOTU, by the way.

Nice. A winter rose grows from the wall, is that Jon or Arya?

[Ser Wun Wun]

Nice. A winter rose grows from the wall, is that Jon or Arya?

Most people assume it is Jon. At least that is what I perceive the general opinion on this forum to be. His mother Lyanna was given a crown of blue winter roses by Rhaegar, Jon is obviously associated with the Wall, so he fits the symbolism pretty well. But since you are a new poster who has just made the terrible mistake of asking my opinion on it....I'll shamelessly exploit this opportunity to ramble a bit :)

Personally, I think the winter rose represents Arya. We had the Bael the Bard story in ACOK, where Bael left a blue winter rose to replace the Stark maiden he had stolen, so we have a theme of blue winter roses representing Stark maidens. And in general I think these mounts of Dany's are simply people/things that lead her to places where important events in her life occur. For instance, the silver horse led her to the stream where Drogo bed her and made her a Khaleesi, thereby changing her life forever. Things like that. Whoever this grey lipped corpse may be, I assume he is the one providing Dany with the ships that get her to Westeros, where the next important stage of her life takes place.

So I think Arya will be the "mount" that leads Dany to the Wall, where she meets Jon, finds love, etc.. So the vision is still about Jon in a way, just sort of indirectly. If you want to know where I'm coming up with this Arya/Dany connection you can read through Moments of Foreshadowing 3, where it's covered in the first post. There are also several other posts scattered throughout that thread that cover foreshadowing for Dany/Arya and just Arya stuff in general. Maybe you'll find some of it to be convincing.

[J. Stargaryen]

Most people assume it is Jon. At least that is what I perceive the general opinion on this forum to be. His mother Lyanna was given a crown of blue winter roses by Rhaegar, Jon is obviously associated with the Wall, so he fits the symbolism pretty well. But since you are a new poster who has just made the terrible mistake of asking my opinion on it....I'll shamelessly exploit this opportunity to ramble a bit :)

Personally, I think the winter rose represents Arya. We had the Bael the Bard story in ACOK, where Bael left a blue winter rose to replace the Stark maiden he had stolen, so we have a theme of blue winter roses representing Stark maidens. And in general I think these mounts of Dany's are simply people/things that lead her to places where important events in her life occur. For instance, the silver horse led her to the stream where Drogo bed her and made her a Khaleesi, thereby changing her life forever. Things like that. Whoever this grey lipped corpse may be, I assume he is the one providing Dany with the ships that get her to Westeros, where the next important stage of her life takes place.

So I think Arya will be the "mount" that leads Dany to the Wall, where she meets Jon, finds love, etc.. So the vision is still about Jon in a way, just sort of indirectly. If you want to know where I'm coming up with this Arya/Dany connection you can read through Moments of Foreshadowing 3, where it's covered in the first post. There are also several other posts scattered throughout that thread that cover foreshadowing for Dany/Arya and just Arya stuff in general. Maybe you'll find some of it to be convincing.

As far as I know, there's nothing to connect Arya to the blue winter rose, other than Lyanna and Jon. I've made a couple of posts about the symbolism between the blue roses and Jon. Both can be found here. The Moment When All the Smiles Died is probably the most convincing passage.

[ARYa_Nym]

Personally, I think the winter rose in Dany's vision refers to Jon/Rhaegar/Lyanna but I think Arya can be a winter rose.

I posted a few pages back why and a comparison to Juliet (the flower) and a quote from Orlando about girls being roses:

The sun blazed or there was darkness. Translating this to the spiritual regions as their wont is, the poets sang beautifully how roses fade and petals fall. The moment is brief they sang; the moment is over; one long night is then to be slept by all. As for using the artifices of the greenhouse or conservatory to prolong or preserve these fresh pinks and roses, that was not their way. The withered intricacies and ambiguities of our more gradual and doubtful age were unknown to them. Violence was all. The flower bloomed and faded. The sun rose and sank. The lover loved and went. And what the poets said in rhyme, the young translated into practice. Girls were roses, and their seasons were short as the flowers’. Plucked they must be before nightfall; for the day was brief and the day was all.

If Arya dies young and especially during the winter as Lyanna may have she takes on the role of a winter rose imo. Of something whose time was short. Beautiful while it bloomed but was not meant to last after its season was over.

ETA: Oh and there are two mentions in AGoT of Arya liking flowers but she's not specifically linked to blue winter roses.

[J. Stargaryen]

Personally, I think the winter rose in Dany's vision refers to Jon/Rhaegar/Lyanna but I think Arya can be a winter rose.

I posted a few pages back why and a comparison to Juliet (the flower) and a quote from Orlando about girls being roses:

If Arya dies young and especially during the winter as Lyanna may have she takes on the role of a winter rose imo. Of something whose time was short. Beautiful while it bloomed but was not meant to last after its season was over.

ETA: Oh and there are two mentions in AGoT of Arya liking flowers but she's not specifically linked to blue winter roses.

But Lyanna and the Stark daughter from the BtB story both gave birth to sons. Without a son, I think the comparison falls 50% short.

[ARYa_Nym]

But Lyanna and the Stark daughter from the BtB story both gave birth to sons. Without a son, I think the comparison falls 50% short.

I don't think that Bael the Bard story is even true especially the part about the bastard inheriting. It's just something to use as a reference point.

I do think Dany is supposed to go to the Wall and find something as shown by the Undying episode and Jon will be there. She will come across Arya before that though.

[J. Stargaryen]

I don't think that Bael the Bard story is even true especially the part about the bastard inheriting. It's just something to use as a reference point.

I do think Dany is supposed to go to the Wall and find something as shown by the Undying episode and Jon will be there. She will come across Arya before that though.

It doesn't really matter if it's true, it's in the story. Both known instances of Stark daughters and winter roses have the girls giving birth to sons. You can't just dismiss that fact because it's inconvenient to your theory. Personally, I see infinitely stronger connections between Sansa and the blue winter rose than Arya. Right now all Arya has going for her is that she's a daughter of House Stark.

[ARYa_Nym]

It doesn't really matter if it's true, it's in the story. Both known instances of Stark daughters and winter roses have the girls giving birth to sons. You can't just dismiss that fact because it's inconvenient to your theory. Personally, I see infinitely stronger connections between Sansa and the blue winter rose than Arya. Right now all Arya has going for her is that she's a daughter of House Stark.

My theory is that the winter rose in the vision doesn't refer to Arya but she can still be a winter rose.

You're dismissing Arya because she hasn't had a son but apparently it fits Sansa more. So you think Sansa will die young after having a son?

[J. Stargaryen]

My theory is that the winter rose in the vision doesn't refer to Arya but she can still be a winter rose.

You're dismissing Arya because she hasn't had a son but apparently it fits Sansa more. So you think Sansa will die young after having a son?

I could see Sansa having a son, yes. She has flowered after all. And then she has been 'stolen' by Bael-ish. So there are some connections there, even though I think it is mostly a red herring to hide the BtB-Jon connection/clue.

ETA: I'm not sure that the Stark girl has to die young. The girl in the BtB story died after her son was Lord of Winterfell.

Part of the reason I dismiss Arya here is that I expect the series to end before we get too far down the road chronologically; i.e., I don't expect we'll see her mature and have a baby with everything else she has to do. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't really see anything telling me that I am.

People think that the blue winter rose symbolizes Stark daughters, because it does in a way. But what people seem to overlook is that both of the girls give birth to sons*. There is no way that is a coincidence, IMO. What I take that to mean is that blue winter roses do not symbolize only Stark daughters, but their sons as well.

*BTW, I think GRRM intended for us to overlook that last bit, hence the confusion.

[ARYa_Nym]

I could see Sansa having a son, yes. She has flowered after all. And then she has been 'stolen' by Bael-ish. So there are some connections there, even though I think it is mostly a red herring to hide the BtB-Jon connection/clue.

ETA: I'm not sure that the Stark girl has to die young. The girl in the BtB story died after her son was Lord of Winterfell.

Part of the reason I dismiss Arya here is that I expect the series to end before we get too far down the road chronologically; i.e., I don't expect we'll see her mature and have a baby with everything else she has to do. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't really see anything telling me that I am.

People think that the blue winter rose symbolizes Stark daughters, because it does in a way. But what people seem to overlook is that both of the girls give birth to sons*. There is no way that is not a coincidence, IMO. What I take that to mean is that blue winter roses do not symbolize only Stark daughters, but their sons as well.

*BTW, I think GRRM intended for us to overlook that last bit, hence the confusion.

You denied Arya because everything didn't match but for Sansa to apply everything isn't going to match either.

I don't see Sansa having LF's son if he is supposed to take on the Bael role.

Arya also has a link because she has been stolen several times in the story and Mance fashioned himself as Bael the Bard when he thought he was stealing her only it wasn't her.

[J. Stargaryen]

You denied Arya because everything didn't match but for Sansa to apply everything isn't going to match either.

I don't see Sansa having LF's son if he is supposed to take on the Bael role.

Arya also has a link because she has been stolen several times in the story and Mance fashioned himself as Bael the Bard when he thought he was stealing her only it wasn't her.

How is 'what you see' relevant, at all, compared to textual evidence? FYI, I ask myself that same question all the time. Instead of picking this or that from Lyanna's story, try comparing the two known blue winter rose stories and finding their commonalities. Because one of them is not 'a Stark girl who died young', which is evidence you're using to make your case. In the BtB story, the Stark girl is probably at least 30 when she died.

The points about Arya being stolen a few time and Mance are both interesting, IMO. I just don't think we're going to see her have a baby, and that element is present in both prior blue winter rose instances.

[ARYa_Nym]

How is 'what you see' relevant, at all, compared to textual evidence? FYI, I ask myself that same question all the time. Instead of picking this or that from Lyanna's story, try comparing the two known blue winter rose stories and finding their commonalities. Because one of them is not 'a Stark girl who died young', which is evidence you're using to make your case. In the BtB story, the Stark girl is probably at least 30 when she died.

The points about Arya being stolen a few time and Mance are both interesting, IMO. I just don't think we're going to see her have a baby, and that element is present in both prior blue winter rose instances.

You're doing the same thing. You're only focusing on the having a son part. It falls apart if Sansa does not have Bael's ((Baelish's) son and if she doesn't die then it's not exactly the same.

I never said Arya's story would be exactly the same just that she can take on the role of a winter rose. It will bloom during the winter but fades out of season.

[J. Stargaryen]

You're doing the same thing. You're only focusing on the having a son part. It falls apart if Sansa does not have Bael's ((Baelish's) son and if she doesn't die then it's not exactly the same.

I never said Arya's story would be exactly the same just that she can take on the role of a winter rose. It will bloom during the winter but fades out of season.

Wait a second, I specifically said I think Sansa's BtB connections are a red herring for Jon's BtB connection/clue. My point was that there are more Sansa-blue rose connections than there are Arya-blue rose connections. So please quit trying to turn this into a Sansa-Arya debate. It's not.

In both cases where we have blue roses in ASoIaF, Stark daughters have given birth to sons. So if we're going to have another symbolic blue winter rose, it's likely to be a case of a Stark daughter giving birth to a son. I don't see that in Arya's future. Also, based on the previous BWR stories, it does not seem like a prerequisite for the Stark daughter to die young.

BTW, I'm not really sure if this is the appropriate thread to carry out this conversation. I'm happy to move it to one of my BWR threads, or the one about Arya/BWR thread. Your call.

[ARYa_Nym]

Wait a second, I specifically said I think Sansa's BtB connections are a red herring for Jon's BtB connection/clue. My point was that there are more Sansa-blue rose connections than there are Arya-blue rose connections. So please quit trying to turn this into a Sansa-Arya debate. It's not.

In both cases where we have blue roses in ASoIaF, Stark daughters have given birth to sons. So if we're going to have another symbolic blue winter rose, it's likely to be a case of a Stark daughter giving birth to a son. I don't see that in Arya's future. Also, based on the previous BWR stories, it does not seem like a prerequisite for the Stark daughter to die young.

BTW, I'm not really sure if this is the appropriate thread to carry out this conversation. I'm happy to move it to one of my BWR threads, or the one about Arya/BWR thread. Your call.

You're the one who brought up Sansa and said Sansa fit it better. Not me.

My point is I don't think there are more clues. There are only more clues if you focus on one part and dismiss the rest of the story.

Besides, this is about Dany and Arya is the one who has the most foreshadowing besides Jon to encounter her.

[Ser Wun Wun]

People think that the blue winter rose symbolizes Stark daughters, because it does in a way. But what people seem to overlook is that both of the girls give birth to sons*. There is no way that is a coincidence, IMO. What I take that to mean is that blue winter roses do not symbolize only Stark daughters, but their sons as well.

*BTW, I think GRRM intended for us to overlook that last bit, hence the confusion.

Yes, they both give birth to sons, that's true. But in the Bael the Bard story the winter rose is explicitly said to be representative of the Stark maiden he took, not the son she had for him.

ACOK; Jon

Be that as it may, what’s certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is-you have Bael’s blood in you, same as me.”

The Stark maiden was obviously the rose that Bael had, um.... "plucked." I'm not denying the significance of the Stark maiden having a son in Bael's story; it obviously lends credibility to the theory that Lyanna had Jon after Rhaegar gave her some blue roses and "plucked" her (as if R+L=J needed any more evidence). That doesn't change the fact that the winter rose is still explicitly cast as symbolically representing the Stark maiden in Bael's story.

I'm also not saying that your connections in the threads you linked are incorrect, they are quite strong. But, and I think several of the people who replied in those threads pointed this out, we've basically got two symbolism's existing in parallel here, and the difficulty arises in reconciling them. To state it as succinctly as I possibly can, in one instance the rose is symbolic of a Stark maiden (Bael the bard; remember it says this directly) and in the other I think the blue rose is primarily symbolic of Bael's story as a whole, specifically it's ending ("plucked" Stark maiden bears a son).

So we've got two symbolic meanings for these blue roses, which is why both Arya/Sansa (Stark maiden's) and Jon (son of...."plucked" Stark maiden) could fit into Dany's vision imo.

If we go with the first interpretation (which I do because it fits better with my conception of what these "mounts" are; not husbands or lovers but rather people/things that lead Dany to important places), then I think Arya fits better than Sansa for two reasons: 1.) Arya and Dany's storylines are linked in foreshadowing in ways that Dany and Sansa's are not, 2.) Arya has been compared to Lyanna many times in this story, and obviously Lyanna is very strongly associated with winter roses. You've also got the Dany to Rhaegar comparisons, which certainly ties into the Dany and Arya (representing Rhaegar and Lyanna "reincarnations") interacting.

Actually, now that I think more about it, my interpretation kind of ties in both symbolic meanings for the blue roses. Arya (Stark maiden and the clear Lyanna reincarnate of this story) is the mount that is leading Dany to love, meaning Jon (the son of a "plucked winter rose").

And...I'll stop there before I get too far into essay mode.

[J. Stargaryen]

You're the one who brought up Sansa and said Sansa fit it better. Not me.

My point is I don't think there are more clues. There are only more clues if you focus on one part and dismiss the rest of the story.

Besides, this is about Dany and Arya is the one who has the most foreshadowing besides Jon to encounter her.

Uh, that's really interesting coming from someone who is ignoring the birth of a son in both prior BWR instances.

According to the text, if you want a symbolic blue winter rose you need at least the following ingredients: a Stark girl who gives birth to a son. Preferably one stolen by musically inclined royalty.