Official Court of Law v 8, Daenerys Targaryen

[SeanF]

Welcome to the 8^th instalment of the “Official court of law” for this board. In this thread we will debate and pass judgement on character crimes from the work ASOIAF. As judges we bear a burden of upholding the integrity of our court so being impartial is imperative, keep all arguments in a legal context that suit the standards of this court. All posters are welcomed to make their case, at the end of your argument pass your judgement and sentence!!!!

My learned friend, Lion of Judah, has temporarily stepped down as President of this Court, in order to serve as one of the judges . I shall be taking his place pro tem. We have agreed the ground rules and charges. Counsel for the Defendant has argued cogently that in view of the strength of feeling against the Defendant among this community, she cannot receive a fair trial. This argument has been rejected by the Court, but it has been necessary to amend the ground rules, in order to ensure that the Defendant receives a fair trial. Amendments are highlighted in bold

The rules:-

1. Every poster has one vote (per charge) of guilt or innocence.

2. For a guilty verdict, your sentencing options are:

■ send the Defendant to be ordained as a silent sister (same as prison sentence)

■Death by sword. (Clean and quick)

■Death by flames. (An ode to R’hllor)

■Death by flaying. (oh boy)

■Monetary fine

■Exile and/or

■Stripped of land/title.

■Prison sentence

3. If you find the character innocent, simply state Innocent, or Not Guilty after your argument. As for as evidence that can be submitted, posters can submit any argument they deem relevant. However we cannot use any pardons or prior convictions as evidence in the matter. Our court will not recognize the judgement of any other court or ruling body.

4. You can also vote for charges to be dismissed (majority rule).

5. At the end of the week the vote will be counted and the final sentence carried out. Only the nominated character will be discussed, however, you can indict characters you also find culpable, as part of your ruling, and they can be added to the docket.

6. Votes can be changed before they are counted, but do so in your original post.

7. Posters can just cast a vote, which is your right, but try to state a case as well. Your opinion actually matters and it may serve to change the vote of another judge.

8. Do not take it personally if your favorite character is being torn to pieces. Everyone is fair game.

9. If votes of 'not guilty' and 'dismissed' taken together comprise over 50% of the total votes cast, the defendant is to be found 'not guilty' or the charge is to be 'dismissed', with the option that gained the most votes between the two representing the final verdict.

10. In order to secure a Guilty verdict on any one charge, it is necessary that 60% of the total votes cast must be in favour of a Guilty verdict.

11. In the event that more than 50% of the total votes cast, but fewer than 60%, should be in favour of a Guilty verdict, then the Defendant is to be released on bail, with the Court having the option to retry the Defendant at a future date.

12. In order to sustain a verdict of Guilty, guilt must be established beyond reasonable doubt.

13. In order for a death sentence to be imposed (in the event of a Guilty verdict) it is necessary that 60% of the total votes cast must be in favour of a death sentence. A vote of Not Guilty/Innocent/Dismissal will automatically be treated as a vote against the imposition of the death penalty, even if the Defendant should be found Guilty of any offence. In the event that (a) the Defendant is found Guilty of any charge b a majority vote in favour of a death penalty, but c that majority is less than 60%, then the death sentence will be commuted to forfeiture of property, and a lifetime of service with the Silent Sisters.

14. Subject to this, the sentence is imposed by majority verdict.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77970-official-court-of-law-vol-1tywin-lannister/#entry3893576

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78275-official-court-of-law-vol-2robb-stark/#entry3917441

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78583-court-of-law-v3-jaime-lannister/page__st__100

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79519-court-of-law-v-4-melisandre/#entry3999723

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79879-court-of-law-v-5-alester-florent/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80312-court-of-law-v-6-renly-baratheon/#entry4055467

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/81011-court-of-law-v-7-gregor-clegane/

The charges are set out in the second post, below.

[SeanF]

1. Four Counts of Murder:-

1.1 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully killed a godswife, Mirri Maz Duur, by ordering her to be tied to her husband’s funeral pyre, and then burning her alive.

1.2 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully killed Kraznys mo Nakloz, a citizen of Astapor by instructing her dragon, Drogon, to burn him to death, which instruction was carried out.

1.3 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully ordered her soldiers to kill a citizen of Astapor, Grazdan mo Ullor, and to massacre the adult free male inhabitants of Astapor, which order was carried out.

1.4 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully crucified 163 of the Great Masters of Mereen.

2. One Count of Genocide.

The massacre of the adult free males of Astapor, detailed in charge 1.3, amounted to the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group

3. Four Counts of Torture

3.1 The burning of Mirri Maz Duur, detailed in charge 1.1, amounted to torture.

3.2 The crucifixion of the Great Masters, detailed in charge 1.4, amounted to torture.

3.3 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully ordered two wineseller’s daughters to be tortured in front of her father, in order to procure information relating to the Sons of the Harpy.

3.4 The Defendant, intentionally and unlawfully ordered numerous unnamed inhabitants of Mereen to be tortured, on suspicion that they were Sons of the Harpy.

4. Two Counts of Criminal Damage to Property.

4.1 The Defendant unlawfully and intentionally set fire to the House of the Undying in Qarth, resulting in its destruction.

4.2 The Defendant unlawfully and intentionally sacked the City of Mereen, resulting in millions of Dragons’ worth of destruction to property.

5. Two counts of Waging Wars of Aggression

5.1 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully waged a war of aggression against Yunkai

5.2 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully waged a war of aggression against Mereen

[MotherAnduin]

1.1 : Guilty.

1.2 : Guilty.

1.3 : Guilty.

1.4 : Guilty.

2 : Guilty.

3.1 : Guilty.

3.2 : Guilty.

3.3 : The defendant is the Queen of conquest of Meereen and hence the source of law. She is not guilty. This is however a very immoral act.

3.4 : The defendant is the Queen of conquest of Meereen and hence the source of law. She is not guilty. This is however a very immoral act.

4.1 : Guilty.

4.2 : Guilty.

5.1 : Guilty.

5.2 : Guilty.

The Defendant is hereby sentenced to be flayed to death.

The Defendant should also be charged for enslaving lambmen, Dothraki, open aggression against Astapor, cheating in business transactions, deaths and property damage caused by Drogon

[Daario's*before*Snows]

3.1 Guilty- Prison sentence (6 month recommendation)

3.2 Guilty- Prison Sentence (3 year recommendation)

All other charges Not Guilty

[Pootie Tang]

1. Four Counts of Murder:-

1.1 Deemed intentional but not deemed unlawful, but as an act of lawful restitution for the death of the defendants dead husband. any court that would vouch for the death penalty would be a hypocritical one to deem the burning of Mirri Maz Dur unlawful. Charges dismissed

The Histories often forgive horrific acts should they prove to lead to a greater good. A real life example coming to mind is the nuculear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that saw a swift end to what could have proven to be decades of more war and strife speculatively killing more in the end. From an utilitarian standpoint, i would argue that it is too soon to know what Danaerys' crimes at Astapor will have for effect. Hence I argue for these verdicts:

1.2 Charges dismissed

1.3 Charges dismissed

1.4 Charges dismissed

2. Charges dismissed

3. Four Counts of Torture

3.1 Charges dismissed, referring to 1.1

3.2 Guilty, Monetary Fine to the citizens of Astapor for ten years.

3.3 Charges dismissed, but should be brought up again when the leader of terrorist organisation 'sons of the harpy' is brought to justice. Restitution must in no way affect the war on terror of Mereen.

3.4 Charges dismissed, but should be brought up again when the leader of terrorist organisation 'sons of the harpy' is brought to justice. Restitution must in no way affect the war on terror of Mereen.

4. Two Counts of Criminal Damage to Property.

4.1 Intentionally, but could be argued from self defence. Not Guilty

4.2 Guilty, Recommendation of severe monetary fine to the citizens of Mereen for 10 years

5. Two counts of Waging Wars of Aggression

5.1 Charges dismissed

5.2 Charges dismissed

The Defendant is charged to pay Monetary restitution to the citizens of Aztapor and the citizens of Mereen.

[DogLover]

I hereby find Daenerys Targaryen guilty on all charges brought against her, except for charge 4.1. The sentence: death by flames.

ETA: After reading the arguments presented by the fellow judges, I've reconsidered my position on charge 4.1. I find the defendant innocent of this charge since it was an act of self defense. I've also strongly considered changing my harsh sentence to death by sword. However, I do feel death by flames is an appropriate sentence for the mass atrocities committed by Daenerys Targaryen. My sentence stands.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

1.1 Deemed intentional but not deemed unlawful, but as an act of lawful restitution for the death of the defendants dead husband.

That's a neat trick: Smother your husband, get to burn one advisor for free.

[Petyr Baller]

I think you need to establish what body of law you intend to apply, and why Daenerys should be subject to that body of law. Furthermore, as the head of state of a sovereign political entity, under American and Earth's international law she has sovereign immunity. I vote for dismissal of all charges unless these points can be satisfied.

[Lady Winter Rose]

1. Four Counts of Murder:-

1.1 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully killed a godswife, Mirri Maz Duur, by ordering her to be tied to her husband’s funeral pyre, and then burning her alive.

I want charges to be dissmissed

1.2 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully killed Kraznys mo Nakloz, a citizen of Astapor by instructing her dragon, Drogon, to burn him to death, which instruction was carried out.

who? Charges to be dissmissed

1.3 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully ordered her soldiers to kill a citizen of Astapor, Grazdan mo Ullor, and to massacre the adult free male inhabitants of Astapor, which order was carried out.

Charges to be dissmissed

1.4 The Defendant intentionally and lawfully crucified 163 of the Great Masters of Mereen.

Guilty, she could just kill them.

2. One Count of Genocide.

The massacre of the adult free males of Astapor, detailed in charge 1.3, amounted to the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group

That was war, I want charges to be dissmissed

3. Four Counts of Torture

3.1 The burning of Mirri Maz Duur, detailed in charge 1.1, amounted to torture.

I want charges to be dissmissed

3.2 The crucifixion of the Great Masters, detailed in charge 1.4, amounted to torture.

I want charges to be dissmissed.

3.3 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully ordered two wineseller’s daughters to be tortured in front of her father, in order to procure information relating to the Sons of the Harpy.

Guilty Monetary fine

3.4 The Defendant, intentionally and unlawfully ordered numerous unnamed inhabitants of Mereen to be tortured, on suspicion that they were Sons of the Harpy.

Guilty. Monetary fine

4. Two Counts of Criminal Damage to Property.

4.1 The Defendant unlawfully and intentionally set fire to the House of the Undying in Qarth, resulting in its destruction.

She was attacked first! Innocent

4.2 The Defendant unlawfully and intentionally sacked the City of Mereen, resulting in millions of Dragons’ worth of destruction to property.

I think this one she is guilty. Monetary fine

5. Two counts of Waging Wars of Aggression

5.1 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully waged a war of aggression against Yunkai

I want charges to be dissmised

5.2 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully waged a war of aggression against Mereen

I want charges to be dismissed.

I choose for charges to be dissmissed.

[Thendel]

On the charges against Queen Daenerys Targaeryen, this juror finds:

On the counts of Murder:

1.1: Not Guilty. The defendant, as Khaleesi of her Khalasar, was in legal right to condemn Mirri Maz Duur to death for deliberate misinformation that lead to the death of the defendant's unborn son and the comatose state of her husband.

1.2: Guilty. The victim had not been informed of the defendant's intentions to declare war, thus this was no act of war.

1.3: Guilty. The victims were civilians.

1.4: Guilty. While the victims were slavers, the manner of the executions were not carried out in consideration of the individual cases, but out of petty revenge.

2. Genocide: Guilty. The crucifications were carried out systematically and intended towards whole or partial extermination of a specific group.

3. On the counts of Torture:

3.1: Guilty. While the crimes committed by the victim were severe, death by burning is a disproportionate punishment.

3.2: Guilty. See above.

3.3: Guilty. Torture is not an appropriate method to use by government officials, suspected connections to terrorist groups aside.

3.4: Guilty. See above.

4. On the counts of Criminal Damage to Property:

4.1: Charges Dismissed. The defendant was assaulted in the place in question, and the use of her dragon was thus intended on personal self-defense, not the destruction of property.

4.2: Charges Dismissed. The defendant has since gone to repair the damage of her own volition.

5. On the counts of Waging Wars of Aggression:

5.1: Guilty. While the conquered city would doubtless have declared war against her, it was due to her unlawful sacking of Astapor.

5.2: Guilty. See above.

Verdict: On the charges against Queen Daenerys Targaeryen, this juror finds her guilty of Murder in cases 1.2-1.4, Genocide, Torture in cases 3.1-3.4 and Waging Wars of Aggression in cases 5.1+5.2. For these crimes, this juror sentences her to Death by Sword. Furthermore, her family will renounce all claims to the cities of Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen.

PS: Love that we can vote on the singular counts now.

[Pootie Tang]

That's a neat trick: Smother your husband, get to burn one advisor for free.

Sacrifice a betrayer, get dragons, more like.

As long as we are taking eyes for eyes, what is life when all the rest is gone?

[SeanF]

I think you need to establish what body of law you intend to apply, and why Daenerys should be subject to that body of law. Furthermore, as the head of state of a sovereign political entity, under American and Earth's international law she has sovereign immunity. I vote for dismissal of all charges unless these points can be satisfied.

All good questions. The purpose of this series of trials is to provide something approximating what would be considered a fair trial in Westeros. In modern jury trials, the judge rules on all issues of law, and the jury is left to determine questions of fact. The jury also has no role in sentencing.

In-universe, you, and your fellow judges, would be expected to make rulings of law, and fact, and to determine the sentence.

So, you must try the Defendant according to whichever body of law you consider appropriate for these charges. And, it is for you to determine whether or not the Defendant possesses sovereign immunity from prosectuion (modern legal systems are not unanimous on that particular point).

[Lord Reaver]

Charges:

1.1 The events happened outside any legal jurisdiction, as no nation claims the area in question, known as "Dothraki Sea". Essos having no multinational statutes or courts, this in effect means the alleged crime happened outside a system of law, and hence cannot be tried. Charges to be dismissed.

1.2 Guilty as charged. No mitigating circumstances can be found, war not having been declared, suggesting that this murder was done purely out of a desire to acquire assets, see charge of "theft of slave soldier company, the Unsullied", which should be added.

1.3 Guilty, see above.

1.4 As queen of Mereen, the defendant is the head of Mereneese law. Furthermore, no agreements on conduct in war has been signed on the continent of Essos, hence the defendant had no requirements on treatments of war prisoners. Charges to be dismissed.

2 Essos having no supernational law nor document setting out the definition of genocide or it's punishment, charges are to be dismissed. Charges of murder may be brought up by the jurisdiction of Astapor however.

3.1 See charge 1.1, the reasoning applies here also. Charges dismissed.

3.2 Unless changes had been made in Mereneese law to the effect that prisoners of war be staked, the verdict must be that the defendant took punishment outside of that normally required from the law, based purely on personal conflicts. Guilty as charged. Decision overturned, as court itself regards torture as valid means of execution. Charge dismissed

3.3 No accusations having been made onto the victims this was clearly an act of unlawful torture and execution. Guilty as charged.

3.4 See above count. Guilty as charged.

4.1 Move to this count being adjusted to Arson and multiple counts of murder. Arguing self defense requires the defendants actions to have been reasonable, which in this case they clearly are not. Guilty as charged.

4.2 No statute of war conduct having been signed between the two parties, no charges can be brought on either side for actions carried out during a state of war. Further no peace treaty was signed, leaving it very much a question when the conflict actually ended. Charges to be dismissed.

5. The continent of Essos having no central authority, there is no body qualified to judge on this matter, nor is there any law under which to try the case. Both charges to be dismissed.

The defendant is found guilty of counts of multiple homicide, homicide, arson, and grand theft. The sentence, according to Mereneese and Astapori law, in which jurisdictions the crimes were committed, amounts to: Execution by flaying.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

As she was acting with in the laws of the area, & they were for the most part deserved punishments: All charges DISMISSED!

BTW-I expect people will vote based on their like or dislike of Dany rather than the rules. I've noticed people make up definitions to suite their needs.

[TheButcherCrow]

1. Four Counts of Murder:-

1.1 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully killed a godswife, Mirri Maz Duur, by ordering her to be tied to her husband’s funeral pyre, and then burning her alive.

- The defendant held title of Khaleesi & was in effect, the law. The death of MMD was a lawful execution. Not Guilty

1.2 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully killed Kraznys mo Nakloz, a citizen of Astapor by instructing her dragon, Drogon, to burn him to death, which instruction was carried out.

- The defendant sacked the city making this a de facto declaration of war. Not Guilty

1.3 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully ordered her soldiers to kill a citizen of Astapor, Grazdan mo Ullor, and to massacre the adult free male inhabitants of Astapor, which order was carried out.

- See above. Not Guilty

1.4 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully crucified 163 of the Great Masters of Mereen.

- A war crime perhaps, but not murder. Not Guilty

2. One Count of Genocide.

The massacre of the adult free males of Astapor, detailed in charge 1.3, amounted to the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group

- I cannot accept that the charge meets the conditions of genocide. Not Guilty.

3. Four Counts of Torture

3.1 The burning of Mirri Maz Duur, detailed in charge 1.1, amounted to torture.

- See charge 1.1. Not Guilty.

3.2 The crucifixion of the Great Masters, detailed in charge 1.4, amounted to torture

- See charge 1.4. Not Guilty.

3.3 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully ordered two wineseller’s daughters to be tortured in front of her father, in order to procure information relating to the Sons of the Harpy.

- The defendant is the Queen of Meereen and cannot be tried for any crimes committed in that city. Charge dismissed.

3.4 The Defendant, intentionally and unlawfully ordered numerous unnamed inhabitants of Mereen to be tortured, on suspicion that they were Sons of the Harpy.

- See above. Charge dismissed.

4. Two Counts of Criminal Damage to Property.

4.1 The Defendant unlawfully and intentionally set fire to the House of the Undying in Qarth, resulting in its destruction.

- The defendant had reasonable suspicion that her life was in danger. Not Guilty by special defence of self defence.

4.2 The Defendant unlawfully and intentionally sacked the City of Mereen, resulting in millions of Dragons’ worth of destruction to property.

- Act of war. Not guilty.

5. Two counts of Waging Wars of Aggression

5.1 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully waged a war of aggression against Yunkai

- Again, attacking the city is a de facto declaration of war. The fact she won does not mean sghe can be held criminally liable. Not Guilty.

- 5.2 The Defendant intentionally and unlawfully waged a war of aggression against Mereen

See Above. Not Guilty.

I find the defendant Not guilty on all charges not dismissed by this court. Danaerys Targaryen has the courts thanks & best wishes. That was weird, I don't even like Dany.

[SeanF]

BTW-I expect people will vote based on their like or dislike of Dany rather than the rules. I've noticed people make up definitions to suite their needs.

I trust that our judges are conscientious and even-handed men and women.

[Petyr Baller]

I think I have a handle on it now. Sovereign immunity wouldn't make this very interesting, so I disregard it.

1. Murder:-

1.1 Mirri Maz Duur received the death sentence for her own crimes, and seeing as how MMD analogized her own life to Drogo's comatose state, we can even say Dany gave her the gift of mercy (manner of death notwithstanding).

Not Guilty

1.2 In this universe, the death penalty is completely appropriate for the crime of slavery.

Not Guilty

1.3 As near as I can tell, the free men in Astapor were engaged in the slave trade. Even if we can speculate that some were not, there is not enough evidence to convict.

Not Guilty

1.4 The death penalty is completely appropriate for the crime of slavery. Their manner of death is addressed below.

Not Guilty

2. Genocide.

While the adult free males of Astapor may well have all been Ghiscari, Daenerys was attempting to eradicate a social class and provide rough justice for the crime of slavery. Although we cannot condone her goal or method of reaching it, her action not meet the definition of genocide.

Not Guilty

3. Torture

3.1 Since this court has similarly torturous punishments available to it, I conclude that legally justified death penalties may be carried out in a torturous manner

Not guilty

3.2 See 3.1

Not guilty

3.3

Guilty, although torture does not seem to be a very serious crime in this universe, and perhaps not even a crime at all. (the High Septon)

3.4 See 3.3

Guilty

4. Criminal Damage to Property.

4.1 The defendant entered the House of the Undying (if I remember correctly) upon the invitation of the warlocks. Therefore she was to be protected by guest right. When the Undying attacked her, she defended herself with the only means available, which was dragonfire. The destruction of property is unfortunate but justified under the circumstances.

Not Guilty

4.2 The Defendant unlawfully and intentionally sacked the City of Meereen, resulting in millions of Dragons’ worth of destruction to property.

Guilty, although I seriously doubt it was millions of Dragons' worth.

5. Waging Wars of Aggression

5.1

5.2 The eradication of slavery provides adequate justification for waging war in these instances.

Not guilty

In light of the ambiguous legal status of torture, I order that the defendant pay monetary compensation to those victims not reasonably believed to be guilty of a crime.

As for the sack of Meereen, I order defendant to pay monetary compensation to those who lost property and had not been engaged in the slave trade (which might be no one).

[TheButcherCrow]

I hereby find Daenerys Targaryen guilty on all charges brought against her. The sentence: death by flames.

Lol, to quote Buffy Summers:

Trust me. Won't help.

[Pootie Tang]

3. Torture

3.1 Since this court has similarly torturous punishments available to it, I conclude that legally justified death penalties may be carried out in a torturous manner

Not guilty

This.

[Mladen]

1. Four Counts of Murder:-

1.1 QUILTY

1.2 QUILTY

1.3 QUILTY

1.4 QUILTY

2. One Count of Genocide.

INNOCENT

3. Four Counts of Torture

3.1 INNOCENT

3.2 QUILTY

3.3 QUILTY

3.4 INNOCENT

4. Two Counts of Criminal Damage to Property.

4.1 INNOCENT

4.2 INNOCENT

5. Two counts of Waging Wars of Aggression

5.1 INNOCENT

5.2 INNOCENT

The defendent is herby sentenced to be ordained as silent sister (no POV)