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Angalin

R+L=J v.42

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Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?

Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Throneshas been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?

Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread 22a)

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

R+L=J v. 41

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I mean, at this point, whenever new members join there should be a bunch of things they have to read before they are allowed to post, like how the Targaryens are not immune to fire, etc. Seriously.

Agreed but we all know that never happens :bang:

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I mean, at this point, whenever new members join there should be a bunch of things they have to read before they are allowed to post, like how the Targaryens are not immune to fire, etc. Seriously.

:agree:

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Agreed but we all know that never happens :bang:

Well, we were all noobs once so some things (like those derived from SSMs) I don't mind seeing explained over and over again. Basic familiarity with the text though (like Dany's burns)... that's a horse of a different color and should be a no brainer.

Maybe there should be an R+L=J 101 thread to lay out the basics. The "prerequisite" if you will ;)

ETA: or everyone could just read Dr Pepper's excellent summary at the start of each thread and the denizens could continue patiently discussing the finer points :D

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I mean, at this point, whenever new members join there should be a bunch of things they have to read before they are allowed to post, like how the Targaryens are not immune to fire, etc. Seriously.

Well, there's quite a simple solution to all that.

Make this thread be about its supposed subject: The theory that R+L=J, period, and supporting details for that (where was Jon borne? was Lyanna attended by Wylla?) -- and only that.

Then create another thread, and pin it, for all other discussion of Jon's parents. Give it a title such as: "Who are Jon Snow's parents, if not Rhaegar and Lyanna?"

This way, R+L=J true believers can have their own little church in which to worship, and other folks can peacefully discuss the wide world of alternate options.

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Well, there's quite a simple solution to all that.

Make this thread be about its supposed subject: The theory that R+L=J, period, and supporting details for that (where was Jon borne? was Lyanna attended by Wylla?) -- and only that.

Then create another thread, and pin it, for all other discussion of Jon's parents. Give it a title such as: "Who are Jon Snow's parents, if not Rhaegar and Lyanna?"

This way, R+L=J true believers can have their own little church in which to worship, and other folks can peacefully discuss the wide world of alternate options.

That wouldn't really solve anything eventually people from both sides would some how find their way on to both threads arguing and at some point it would become the same as this thread.

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Well, we were all noobs once so some things (like those derived from SSMs) I don't mind seeing explained over and over again. Basic familiarity with the text though (like Dany's burns)... that's a horse of a different color and should be a no brainer.

Maybe there should be an R+L=J 101 thread to lay out the basics. The "prerequisite" if you will ;)

ETA: or everyone could just read Dr Pepper's excellent summary at the start of each thread and the denizens could continue patiently discussing the finer points :D

Agreed I was referring to the obvious stuff that are as you said "no brainers" like Dany's burn for instance.

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Well, I'm assuming you are discussing my post where - the memory of an aged fan sometimes fails - I'd forgotten about Dany's burns - my mistake. I stand by the statement that Jon is a product of R + L but, his Stark upbringing and Stark genetics are much stronger than any Targaryan ones. He's ice, Dany's fire.

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I agree with you to some extent: At this point in time, Jon seems much more Ice than Fire. However, I also think he hasn't found his balance yet, and won't do so until he finds out about his fiery side and accepts it. Jon might be only ice now, but he has to be ice and fire for the story to end well.

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Well, I'm assuming you are discussing my post where - the memory of an aged fan sometimes fails - I'd forgotten about Dany's burns - my mistake. I stand by the statement that Jon is a product of R + L but, his Stark upbringing and Stark genetics are much stronger than any Targaryan ones. He's ice, Dany's fire.

Baelor Breakspear and Princess Rhaenys didn't look like Targaryens. Are you saying that they're somehow less Targaryen than the silver-haired ones? There's more to who you are than your outward appearance. There are a few hints in the books that Jon follows his father's personality — dwelling, melancholy, etc. — and also that he's capable of having his "dragon" awoken in bursts of extreme anger. Nothing "icy" about throttling Iron Emmett or grabbing Thorne by the throat one-handed.

There's also the matter of, ya know, who his parents are and what elements those families represent. Which is kind of the entire point and also, I think, Rhaegar's overall motive when he had a child with Lyanna.

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I agree with you to some extent: At this point in time, Jon seems much more Ice than Fire. However, I also think he hasn't found his balance yet, and won't do so until he finds out about his fiery side and accepts it. Jon might be only ice now, but he has to be ice and fire for the story to end well.

I agree with this, and I think it's possible we will find that while he was nurtured a Stark, with those elements, his nature will be dragon, but he will have a command of both.

Will he warg a dragon?

Will the dragons come to him, identifying him for what he is, unlike poor Quentyn despite his Targaryen blood.

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I agree with this, and I think it's possible we will find that while he was nurtured a Stark, with those elements, his nature will be dragon, but he will have a command of both.

Will he warg a dragon?

Will the dragons come to him, identifying him for what he is, unlike poor Quentyn despite his Targaryen blood.

Wow I love this thought. Ya I think it's reasonable to say of course Jon is all Ice right now when Stark is all he currently knows. But once/if his Targ side is revealed then I highly doubt he will just completely ignore/abandon the dragon in him.

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Wow I love this thought. Ya I think it's reasonable to say of course Jon is all Ice right now when Stark is all he currently knows. But once/if his Targ side is revealed then I highly doubt he will just completely ignore/abandon the dragon in him.

Guess what I think happens when his killers try and burn his body?

(And yes, I love irony too as Martins book is full of it). :laugh:

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I still think Jon does show flashes of fire, namely with his bursts of temper. There seems to be an idea *cough* that unless you're riding a dragon or screaming about FIYAH AND BLOOD AND CAPSLOCK that you can't be "fiery." That's not accurate.

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I still think Jon does show flashes of fire, namely with his bursts of temper. There seems to be an idea *cough* that unless you're riding a dragon or screaming about FIYAH AND BLOOD AND CAPSLOCK that you can't be "fiery." That's not accurate.

Agreed, like the time he is training with one of the NW members and Jon has a flashback of Robb calling him a bastard, which infuriates Jon causing him to go absolutely ape shit on the NW member he was trainning with to the point where Jon actually had to be pulled off the guy..I know some ppl will just say it's his "wolf's blood", (edit**)- but Starks that had/have that "wolf's blood" type of personality like Arya, Lyanna, and Brandon seemed to act like that(meaning wild) in most situations. Where as Jon is more of a laid back, melancholy kind of guy which is why it seemed like a fire moment to me.

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Agreed, like the time he is training with one of the NW members and Jon has a flashback of Robb calling him a bastard, which infuriates Jon causing him to go absolutely ape shit on the NW member he was trainning with to the point where Jon actually had to be pulled off the guy..I know some ppl will just say it's his "wolf's blood", but that seemed like a fire moment to me.

Yes, that and the time he lifts Alliser Thorne by the neck one-handed, when Thorne calls him a traitor. berserker!Jon is the best.

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