R+L=J v.42

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm I mistaken or Sansa went to a weirwood when she went praying and plotting to escape or it was just a big tree?

i named the Builder not as a real proposal but an exaggeration to show that we don't know when it happened , the scene might just be made to show the extent of his powers

But we do know, as we said, that it's limited to a fairly specific window of time, one in which Old Nan is already, you know, old. Lyanna and Benjen are the only ones who make sense, given the parameters. Not sure why you keep arguing this at this point.

[Dorsai]

It was a heart tree, but not a weirwood. The two are not exactly the same.

I'll stand corrected then

[Dorsai]

Not sure why you keep arguing this at this point.

Because I didn't remember of Old Nan

[Jon Icefyre]

It was just a say , about the resemblance of course ned thought there wasn't he was her brother , he knew her well but Bran didn't aside her statue in her tomb

As I said I'll do my scholars I'm not yet convinced that Benjen was younger than Lyanna

No no, you said "even Margarey Tyrell looks like Lyanna" those were your exact words, which is not true at all according to Ned himself. All bran does is give a description I don't think he ever says the girl was Lyanna we as the reader came to that conclusion because we have more overall information on Lyanna and other factors(like Old Nan) than Bran does and that's what matters most in that specific situation. Had Bran known what we know he would have confirmed her identity as Lyanna.

[MarinaC]

This is my first post, so I'm sorry if someone already had this idea or if I'm being idiot...

I don't think this is really the right place for my little theory, but I've read you guys discussing on Rhaegar's rubies a couple of pages back and that got me thinking...

So, this is the part about the rubies:

(...) aye, and rubies.”

That interested Ser Hyle. “Rhaegar’s rubies?”

“It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

Well, the Ghost of High Heart said that the PtwP would be born from Aerys and Rhaella line. We know that there are 6 confirmed descendants of them:

- Rhaegar and his children, Rhaenys and Aegon (dead or not)

- Viserys

- Dany and Rhaego (stillborn, I know, but still...)

This is a nice parallel with the rubies. "Six have been found". But they're waiting for the seventh, like someone said, it's almost like they are waiting for a savior.

So, perhaps this passage is a hint that none of the know Targaryens of Aerys line are the PtwP, but there's still one not found yet.

I really believe that R+L=J, so Jon is the seventh ruby, thus the savior, the PtwP

It's certainly a stretch, or even a crackpot theory, because the rubies are Rhaegars, not Aerys, and Rhaego was stillborn, etc. But, after all, it doesn't change anything if it's right, it's just Martin showing what a great writer he is by hiding this litlle clues. I just wanted to know if I'm getting really crazy or if it does make sense.

[FrozenFire3]

I see, and maybe it's because I haven't felt that so much anymore I didn't understand what had happened. I really try and choose my threads carefully anymore as I've seen real people treated very badly, above and beyond a passionate debate, over fictional characters.

Emphasys on 'fictional'... Sometimes the level of conflict is such to discourage any attempt at replying :unsure:

On Harrenhal:

No, for me it's about the theory of crowning Lyanna so Rhaegar could share the victory. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying if thats the case, it doesn't make sense. If the goal was to protect Lyannas idenity then the natural course of action would be to have her stay out of trouble and stay behind the scenes, but instead, he made her the star of the show.

I just tend to think that behavior spoke more to something "driven" in him, in the same way that Jorah was driven by Lynesse.

The parallel with Jorah is fully grounded. You often compare the Targaryen inner dragon to the unbridled rage of the Plantagets. It's possible Rhaegar's dragon breathed in his blood the fire of passion instead, causing him to loose both control and common sense. Since we are lacking enough factual basis though, I'd rather suspend judgement. The crowning could make sense once GRRM gifts us with more solid textual ground.

On Modern Comparisons:

I had thought that was what you were alluding to, and I don't think your wrong.

There is such a visceral reaction regarding Rhaegars treatment of Elia that it feels like something more personal.

(And that doesn't mean thats not part of the Authors intent either, because many fans relate to certain characters for a particular reason. So, if an Author can inspire such deep feelings, I imagine thats very gratifying).

However, Rhaegars not loving Elia is one thing I have never held against Rhaegar. Perhaps if her fate had not been so vicious and violent, and it hadn't been related so directly to Rhaegar, people would be better able to "cut through the fog."

But, it's true you can't compare then to now, especially relationships.

They didn't have choices then, I daresay not even the small folk did, and while infidelity was probably still not the optimal way to treat a marriage, even an arranged, or political marriage, having lovers and paramours was not unexpected. But, because we do have choices today, infidelity is more emotionally impactful and it's definitely a life experience that some fans may be sensitive to, thus affecting their overall view of the characters.

I'm not immune to emotional resonance either. Just try to stop that from clouding my overall analysis. Not too much at least ^_^

I find it baffling the way some people can 'forgive' a character like Jamie (don't get me wrong, I love his redemptive arc), king and kidslayer, not to mention questionable incestous father, and can't grant Rhaegar the benefit of doubt :dunno:

I think in the end for me, it's about the story, the feel of the overall work than perhaps any one character. I suppose the one I come the closest to feeling favoritism for is Arya, but I'm aware her road could go either way.

So, in the end, I think it's Martins responsibility to tell a good story, rather than to preserve the nobility of anyone character if it has a purpose to the story. I mean in the end, Jon could end up very much a tyrant if he takes the throne.

And wouldn't that be the the most ironic twist of fate? LOL

As an aside, I do however agree on your take of Rhaegar, and I speculate she could have also have been the reason he needed to become a warrior. She admired martial prowess, so she would need to be impressed, but also, she was betrothed to one of the finest warriors in the land. The idea he may have seen her in a vision and understood he would need to fight for her is also not outside the realm of possibility.

Until we know what he read that compelled him to become a warrior, it's hard to know.

Needing three heads of the dragon, and becoming a warrior might have been two seperate necessities of whatever prophesy, rather than him marching off to fight the Others when he hadn't even visited the Wall, (that we know of).

Edit: Thanks as always for the procuring the awesome graphics. :bowdown:

I live to serve :lol:

[FrozenFire3]

This is my first post, so I'm sorry if someone already had this idea or if I'm being idiot...

I don't think this is really the right place for my little theory, but I've read you guys discussing on Rhaegar's rubies a couple of pages back and that got me thinking...

So, this is the part about the rubies:

Well, the Ghost of High Heart said that the PtwP would be born from Aerys and Rhaella line. We know that there are 6 confirmed descendants of them:

- Rhaegar and his children, Rhaenys and Aegon (dead or not)

- Viserys

- Dany and Rhaego (stillborn, I know, but still...)

This is a nice parallel with the rubies. "Six have been found". But they're waiting for the seventh, like someone said, it's almost like they are waiting for a savior.

So, perhaps this passage is a hint that none of the know Targaryens of Aerys line are the PtwP, but there's still one not found yet.

I really believe that R+L=J, so Jon is the seventh ruby, thus the savior, the PtwP

It's certainly a stretch, or even a crackpot theory, because the rubies are Rhaegars, not Aerys, and Rhaego was stillborn, etc. But, after all, it doesn't change anything if it's right, it's just Martin showing what a great writer he is by hiding this litlle clues. I just wanted to know if I'm getting really crazy or if it does make sense.

Welcome onboard ^_^

I like the way you got in full textual analysis mode from start. Your stretch is quite intriguing if we take into account J. Stargaryen's blood/rubies metaphor. Not to mention the river as metaphor of the blood/legacy/destiny flowing through generations...

[sabrecmc]

This is my first post, so I'm sorry if someone already had this idea or if I'm being idiot...

I don't think this is really the right place for my little theory, but I've read you guys discussing on Rhaegar's rubies a couple of pages back and that got me thinking...

So, this is the part about the rubies:

Well, the Ghost of High Heart said that the PtwP would be born from Aerys and Rhaella line. We know that there are 6 confirmed descendants of them:

- Rhaegar and his children, Rhaenys and Aegon (dead or not)

- Viserys

- Dany and Rhaego (stillborn, I know, but still...)

This is a nice parallel with the rubies. "Six have been found". But they're waiting for the seventh, like someone said, it's almost like they are waiting for a savior.

So, perhaps this passage is a hint that none of the know Targaryens of Aerys line are the PtwP, but there's still one not found yet.

I really believe that R+L=J, so Jon is the seventh ruby, thus the savior, the PtwP

It's certainly a stretch, or even a crackpot theory, because the rubies are Rhaegars, not Aerys, and Rhaego was stillborn, etc. But, after all, it doesn't change anything if it's right, it's just Martin showing what a great writer he is by hiding this litlle clues. I just wanted to know if I'm getting really crazy or if it does make sense.

Since I brought up the rubies, but wasn't sure where I was going with it, I think that is a great analysis...Thanks for adding your thoughts.