R+L=J v.42

[MtnLion]

Ashara in the meantime has returned to Starfall, perhaps to arrange a ship for Lyanna to return to the North. (Ultimately I think Ned did send Jon by ship to Winterfell, although I think it most likely that they took the Western route and Ned disembarked at Seagard, from where he went to Riverrun to collect Catelyn and Robb, while Jon and his entourage, which would have included Lyanna's remains, continued North, possibly to Barrowton- which would explain how they returned Barbrey Dustin her husband William's horse)

It is entirely possible to board ship with a horse. It seemed to me that Catelyn made the trip to Winterfell on her own (of course there was escort, but it seems that Ned was off doing business (maybe returning a horse) when she arrived at Winterfell to find a wetnurse and Jon.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

It is entirely possible to board ship with a horse. It seemed to me that Catelyn made the trip to Winterfell on her own (of course there was escort, but it seems that Ned was off doing business (maybe returning a horse) when she arrived at Winterfell to find a wetnurse and Jon.

Yes, I meant that the horse and Jon et al took ship to Barrowton from Seagard (I just edited my post to make that thought more clear) It seemed easier than trailing a horse around the countryside for some reason.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Ned went to Riverrun to escort Cat to WF. App? Wiki? Damn them- it seems to be one of those things that was there and now is gone. But- reading it was one of those moments where things suddenly seemed quite clear: a ship from Dorne around the west coast could easily drop Ned off in the Riverlands and then continue North all the while avoiding KL or the slightly longer route via White Harbor. It seemed like it wrapped up a lot of things neatly.

Eh, I think the only thing we know for sure is that Jon was there when Cat arrived with Robb. Ned may have been off returning horses, swords or who knows what other relics anywhere in Westeros for all we know :dunno:

[Ser Leftwich]

Yes, I meant that the horse and Jon et al took ship to Barrowton from Seagard (I just edited my post to make that thought more clear) It seemed easier than trailing a horse around the countryside for some reason.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Ned went to Riverrun to escort Cat to WF. App? Wiki? Damn them- it seems to be one of those things that was there and now is gone. But- reading it was one of those moments where things suddenly seemed quite clear: a ship from Dorne around the west coast could easily drop Ned off in the Riverlands and then continue North all the while avoiding KL or the slightly longer route via White Harbor. It seemed like it wrapped up a lot of things neatly.

Eh, I think the only thing we know for sure is that Jon was there when Cat arrived with Robb. Ned may have been off returning horses, swords or who knows what other relics anywhere in Westeros for all we know :dunno:

Is Ned back in KL for Robert's wedding to Cersei? Is that when they reconcile over Lyanna's death?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Is Ned back in KL for Robert's wedding to Cersei? Is that when they reconcile over Lyanna's death?

That's always seemed the likely time to me, but pretty sure he went to WF to get Cat settled in first. I'd actually like confirmation as to whether she went to the wedding with him. That would clear up a few things.

[MtnLion]

Yes, I meant that the horse and Jon et al took ship to Barrowton from Seagard (I just edited my post to make that thought more clear) It seemed easier than trailing a horse around the countryside for some reason.

Yes, when I considered Ashara, the fact that Starfall was a seaport became of importance. Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square, or even Barrowtown are easily reached on the west coast. Might there be a story at one of these places about Ned returning with a child from the war? Hmmm.

[Ser Leftwich]

That's always seemed the likely time to me, but pretty sure he went to WF to get Cat settled in first. I'd actually like confirmation as to whether she went to the wedding with him. That would clear up a few things.

I think there is a passage somewhere about Cersei being escorted from the West to KL for the wedding, which might help to figure out the timing.

ETA: It is part of Barristan Selmy's entry in the White Book.

"Served in the honor guard that brought Lady Cersei of House Lannister to King’s Landing to wed King Robert." ASoS p. 915

So it was l enough time for Selmy to have healed up after the Trident.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Yes, when I considered Ashara, the fact that Starfall was a seaport became of importance. Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square, or even Barrowtown are easily reached on the west coast. Might there be a story at one of these places about Ned returning with a child from the war? Hmmm.

The reason I wonder about Barrowton is that I feel like there's much more to Barbrey Dustin than meets the eye. She has this supposed grudge and I get all the reasons (the betrothal, the scheming maester, the infernal horse...) yet Brandon was fostered in Barrowton and had a romantic relationship with her and her husband was one of Ned's closest friends present at ToJ. So many arrows pointing to something going on there.

I think there is a passage somewhere about Cersei being escorted from the West to KL for the wedding, which might help to figure out the timing.

ETA: It is part of Barristan Selmy's entry in the White Book.

"Served in the honor guard that brought Lady Cersei of House Lannister to King’s Landing to wed King Robert." ASoS p. 915

So it was l enough time for Selmy to have healed up after the Trident.

The same passage notes that he was wounded by arrow, sword and spear, so a lengthy healing time I'd say. Enough time for Ned to travel the length of Westeros twice perhaps? Barristan himself would have had to travel to Casterley Rock to return with Cersei before we'd expect Ned's arrival in KL, and we know that Cersei doesn't favor the quickest modes of transport :)

[Cinder Stark]

About the Jon and Rhaegar parallels:

Both of them show an interest in fighting women who don´t want to be perfect ladies and do what they want.

I always found this sentece from Clash very nice its from the scene where Jon fails in killing Ýgritte:

"He was his fahter´s son wasn´t he?"

Apart from the obvious hint that Jon isn´t Ned´s son I´ve allways wondered if Jon did what his father would have done.

I think Ned would have killed her, but Rhaegar ? I have my doubts he didn´t tell Aerys that Lyannna was the KotLT. I think Jon acted like Rhaegar in this scene.

Jon is also very emo like Rhaehar is described. He looks like a Stark, in his heart is a stark, but his personality some of his father is there, also Ned.

[Techelles]

R+L=J

Never again will I dare claim otherwise.

:cheers:

Thinking along the lines that Ned may have been tipped off at Lyanna's request:

The KG were adamant on not letting Ned in while Lyanna seemed to be holdingonto her life until she could speak to him - seems like a conflict of interests here. A couple of options comes to mind:

1) Lyanna sent for Ned without the KG knowing, e.g. with the help of Ashara (who may have been her lady in waiting at ToJ; hence Ashara's suicide for causing her brother's death)

2) Lyanna sent for Ned with the KG's approval but they changed their minds later - now, this doesn't seem very probable, contacting the second-in-command of the Rebellion would have been a well-thought act

3) Lyanna sent for Ned after she learned about Rhaegar's death but before the news of the Sack arrived. With Rhaegar dead and herself heavily pregnant, she definitely needed help - the future of the Targs was uncertain, Aerys would have been hostile to her, Robert's reaction hardly favourable, so family would have been the logical choice. Also, since Aerys and Aegon are still alive, the KG have no reason to object, it is only the death of these two that changes everything.

Very interesting line of thought. I'd agree with Lady Gwynhyfvar that a combination of 1 & 3 would work best. But however it went down, I don't think the KG gave their approval.

1) So let's say Lyanna somehow convinced Ashara that the war was over and resistance futile. Ashara herself then leaves, either secretly or with the story that she's returning to Starfall. It's known that Ned is marching on Storm's End, so she goes and finds him there. After telling him about the ToJ, Ned puts her on a ship back to Starfall and the magnificent seven head south. If Ashara had left in secret, the KG would have been very suspicious, which would explain why they were not surprised to see Ned. We might ask why they didn't pack up and leave once they began to suspect that Ashara had betrayed their location...well, the only answer I have is that Lyanna was either too pregnant or too sick to travel.

2) Then there's the possibility that Lyanna and/or Ashara sent Wylla to Ned at Storm's End. This would would give additional credence to the N+W=J rumor. Ned would have taken her along to the ToJ to take care of the baby. If Ashara was also at the tower when Wylla left, then the KG must have sent her back to Starfall when they became suspicious of Wylla's absence, because clearly Ashara was not at the ToJ when Ned arrived, since Arthur's death was news to her. At least, that's how I understand it, and that's what makes the most sense to me.

A strong point of the first option is that it gives Ashara a reason to feel responsible for her brother's death, and thus a more convincing reason for her suicide. A strong point for the second is that it probably would have been much easier for Lyanna to prevail upon Wylla than Ashara. The strength of both is that they streamline the timeline by circumventing the need for ravens and too many long journeys. I like the first option best, I think, because it gives a more central role to Ashara, which deepens her relationship with Ned.

[Tyrion4President]

:bowdown: Seven gods, yes!

Exactly. People tend to forget that this is not history. This is a story. An author plans a storyline, dips into his inner resources (talent, experience, emotions), gets loans from outer ones (cultural references, archetypal parallels, literary echoes) and build a very delicate structure whose foundation is the above mentioned storyline and whose bearing walls are clues, hints and foreshadowings. Displacement of any of these and the whole building collapses or gets seriously damaged.

After my first reading of the saga what really struck me were two elements: the centrality of Jon Snow and the overbearing presence of a character who's already dead at the very beginning of the narration :blink: Rhaegar is the 'stone guest' of ASOIAF. Every second page, main POVs mention him, think about him, remember him, dream about him, wonder about him, have visions about him, love, hate, idealise him. I wondered and still wonder why an author chooses to insist whis such an emphasis on a dead character unless his shadow is much longer and much more solid than what we could think at first reading. Unless he is somehow still alive (metaphorically speaking) and capable of influencing the story arc of major characters.

This is genious :bowdown:

[Sasha Steelsong]

I'm somewhat surprised that not everyone gets it yet, that the thought still has so much opposition. All that's left to do, honestly, to point it out even more is to just put arrows next to the text and underline things.

I am and I'm not.

My husband still doesn't subscribe to the theory but also has come to acknowledge that if Jon is Lyanna's there is no real alternative for a father other than Rhaegar. He's much less into the details and has only done one read through of the series so it may come down to different levels of investment (like he's really excited for the next book but has the willpower not to read any gift chapters - I don't have that willpower). He at one point thought Jon might be Robert's (I know, I know, yes my mouth fell open on that one), but I explained the timeline and he thought about it, and about how Robert was not acting like a man who'd so much as gotten a chance to touch Lyanna, and dropped that pretty quickly. Now he won't be surprised if it turns out that way, but hasn't totally bought it yet because he admits he doesn't want Jon hating Ned for keeping secrets.

As for why people on the board continue to be against it, I would imagine some are like my husband, some know there is something up but haven't settled yet, and some people who are just contrary and don't want it to be true because everyone believes it is (there are always people like that for every theory on anything).

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

:cheers:

Very interesting line of thought. I'd agree with Lady Gwynhyfvar that a combination of 1 & 3 would work best. But however it went down, I don't think the KG gave their approval.

1) So let's say Lyanna somehow convinced Ashara that the war was over and resistance futile. Ashara herself then leaves, either secretly or with the story that she's returning to Starfall. It's known that Ned is marching on Storm's End, so she goes and finds him there. After telling him about the ToJ, Ned puts her on a ship back to Starfall and the magnificent seven head south. If Ashara had left in secret, the KG would have been very suspicious, which would explain why they were not surprised to see Ned. We might ask why they didn't pack up and leave once they began to suspect that Ashara had betrayed their location...well, the only answer I have is that Lyanna was either too pregnant or too sick to travel.

2) Then there's the possibility that Lyanna and/or Ashara sent Wylla to Ned at Storm's End. This would would give additional credence to the N+W=J rumor. Ned would have taken her along to the ToJ to take care of the baby. If Ashara was also at the tower when Wylla left, then the KG must have sent her back to Starfall when they became suspicious of Wylla's absence, because clearly Ashara was not at the ToJ when Ned arrived, since Arthur's death was news to her. At least, that's how I understand it, and that's what makes the most sense to me.

A strong point of the first option is that it gives Ashara a reason to feel responsible for her brother's death, and thus a more convincing reason for her suicide. A strong point for the second is that it probably would have been much easier for Lyanna to prevail upon Wylla than Ashara. The strength of both is that they streamline the timeline by circumventing the need for ravens and too many long journeys. I like the first option best, I think, because if gives a more central role to Ashara, which deepens her relationship with Ned.

I'm warming to the idea that both Ashara and Wylla were involved. Your second point, about Wylla actually traveling with Ned from SE to ToJ to SF giving credence to N+W=J is exactly why. I was never convinced of how she fit in, for some reason Ned deciding to have Lyanna's midwife or the wet nurse pose as Jon's mother didn't make half the sense this does, if we are assuming she is some sort of trusted ladies maid or companion. Let's remember that it is only the assumption that Wylla is Jon's birth mother which leads Ned Dayne to assume he is Jon's milk brother. We have no other proof that Wylla was a wet nurse for Jon. In fact, all we know of that subject is that there was a wet nurse who was not Wylla when Jon arrived at WF.

To your first point, yes I'd say Lyanna (and probably Ashara as well) saw the writing on the wall after the Trident and Ashara was sent to Starfall with a specific task. The KG may have been complicit with the plan to get Lyanna to a ship, but not known of Wylla's mission to locate Ned. So they bid Ashara and Wylla godspeed assuming they are both heading to Starfall and once out of sight, the ladies split up and ride hell for leather in opposite directions.

Timeline is being streamlined here and motives clarified. I'm liking the Ashara scenario more and more, although I'm still holding on to my original supposition that Ashara's "Stark" was Brandon ;)

[UVA]

The reason I wonder about Barrowton is that I feel like there's much more to Barbrey Dustin than meets the eye. She has this supposed grudge and I get all the reasons (the betrothal, the scheming maester, the infernal horse...) yet Brandon was fostered in Barrowton and had a romantic relationship with her and her husband was one of Ned's closest friends present at ToJ. So many arrows pointing to something going on there.

I definitely got that vibe, particularly during her visit to Winterfell's crypt. I just can't get her temperature though, her antipathy towards Ned is a bit too extreme.

[UVA]

Exactly, and trope-busting for the sake of trope-busting can very well net you a bad story. As I've said many times, I'd rather well-told story even if it's a cliche' over a badly done story for the sake of seeking "originality," which is nigh on impossible these days.

There is a reason we still read Shakespeare and "The Illiad," but "Fifty Shades of Grey," while satisfying the current trends, probably will end up in the dust bin of literary history.

Given how you've broken it down so brutally, yet effectively, Jon, the Starks and the Targaryens had better get an ending that's "light, bright, and sparkling."

Agree again. For any story to work the author has to draw on tropes otherwise it doesn't make sense, let alone a good story. Who cares then?

[MtnLion]

although I'm still holding on to my original supposition that Ashara's "Stark" was Brandon ;)

Don't buy that a Stark dishonored Ashara, at all. The construction of that section of prose definitely was intended to convey that idea without saying it. Look at the sentence with Stark in it, and tell me why Barristan would prefer he be first choice for Ashara. Certainly it was not to dishonor her.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Don't buy that a Stark dishonored Ashara, at all. The construction of that section of prose definitely was intended to convey that idea without saying it. Look at the sentence with Stark in it, and tell me why Barristan would prefer he be first choice for Ashara. Certainly it was not to dishonor her.

Ahh, but I don't think a Stark dishonored her either. Barristan recalls that a man dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal, that there was a stillborn girl child (he assumes it was Ashara's- I do not) and that she "turned to a Stark." When I read that I get the impression that poor Barristan is a proper, conservative knight who just didn't understand the situation. He was carrying a torch for Ashara and assumed that many bad things resulted from the Tourney at Harrenhal. I think she (being a free spirited Dornish woman, a la Arianne Martell) had an affair of her own choosing with a randy northern boy, who already had a reputation as somewhat of a ladies man. I further think that she had a child, but that her child was a healthy boy with violet eyes like his mother and ash blond hair like his uncle Arthur and cousin Ned. The stillborn girl child belonged to someone else entirely and Barristan, while giving us some valuable pieces of information, illustrates how he really did not understand what was going on around him. :leer:

[MtnLion]

I further think that she had a child, but that her child was a healthy boy with violet eyes like his mother and ash blond hair like his uncle Arthur and cousin Ned.

Oh oh, sounds like you favor the idea of a switch at birth, like I do. ;)

However, I am not so certain that Ashara was happy about the situation.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Oh oh, sounds like you favor the idea of a switch at birth, like I do. ;)

Yup. A double switch, if you know what I mean :)

[Jon Icefyre]

I further think that she had a child, but that her child was a healthy boy with violet eyes like his mother and ash blond hair like his uncle Arthur and cousin Ned.

Cousin Ned??

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Cousin Ned??

Edric Dayne