R+L=J v.42

[Ser Leftwich]

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To your first point, yes I'd say Lyanna (and probably Ashara as well) saw the writing on the wall after the Trident and Ashara was sent to Starfall with a specific task. The KG may have been complicit with the plan to get Lyanna to a ship, but not known of Wylla's mission to locate Ned. So they bid Ashara and Wylla godspeed assuming they are both heading to Starfall and once out of sight, the ladies split up and ride hell for leather in opposite directions.

Again, the idea of Wylla (AFAWK just a commoner wet nurse) being allowed through the guards and filters of the army around Ned at SE does not seem likely. Why would she be let in to talk to Ned? Both Ashara and Wylla maybe. Also, why send away the wet nurse if the baby is already born or imminent.

In the scenario of Lyanna's baby has already been taken to Starfall, again Wylla goes with the baby.

In the scenario of Wylla being a trusted companion/ladies maid to Ashara, she would again be a commoner or of sufficiently low rank that she would not be allowed to see Ned.

If Wylla is a trusted companion/ladies maid to Lyanna, someone from Winterfell that Ned knows, then Wylla would be able to get in to see him.

I wonder where Wylla is from, Dorne or elsewhere.

[Jon Icefyre]

Edric Dayne

Oh ok ya that makes sense I didn't know that Ned had ash blonde hair

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

However, I am not so certain that Ashara was happy about the situation.

I go back and forth on that. Certainly if she felt jilted by Brandon and burdened by the child, the switch would have been very much to her advantage as well as the child's, not to mention the "adoptive" mother's ;)

Again, the idea of Wylla (AFAWK just a commoner wet nurse) being allowed through the guards and filters of the army around Ned at SE does not seem likely. Why would she be let in to talk to Ned? Both Ashara and Wylla maybe. Also, why send away the wet nurse if the baby is already born or imminent.

In the scenario of Lyanna's baby has already been taken to Starfall, again Wylla goes with the baby.

In the scenario of Wylla being a trusted companion/ladies maid to Ashara, she would again be a commoner or of sufficiently low rank that she would not be allowed to see Ned.

If Wylla is a trusted companion/ladies maid to Lyanna, someone from Winterfell that Ned knows, then Wylla would be able to get in to see him.

I wonder where Wylla is from, Dorne or elsewhere.

Well... see my point above that we have no actual evidence Wylla WAS the wet nurse. Just Ned Dayne's assumption that he is Jon's milk brother, which you must admit is based on the fact that Ned Dayne thinks Wylla is Jon's mother. Also, Ned Dayne makes another comment that I find curious "She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born." (emphasis mine) Now I'm not sure what you know about 10 year old kids, but I can assure you that anything before they came into existence is as good as ancient history. Which means it is entirely possible Wylla only arrived on the scene in Starfall about fifteen years ago and we really know nothing about where she came from before that. She could just as well have come from the North as Starfall or anywhere else.

Oh ok ya that makes sense I didn't know that Ned had ash blonde hair

He is described as pale blond in ASoS I think. Arthur as "ash", I made a tiny leap there (eta- I do think there's an SSM on the subject of Dayne coloring somewhere)

[Ser Leftwich]

Well... see my point above that we have no actual evidence Wylla WAS the wet nurse. Just Ned Dayne's assumption that he is Jon's milk brother, which you must admit is based on the fact that Ned Dayne thinks Wylla is Jon's mother. Also, Ned Dayne makes another comment that I find curious "She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born." (emphasis mine) Now I'm not sure what you know about 10 year old kids, but I can assure you that anything before they came into existence is as good as ancient history. Which means it is entirely possible Wylla only arrived on the scene in Starfall about fifteen years ago and we really know nothing about where she came from before that. She could just as well have come from the North as Starfall or anywhere else.

Got it. We have no reason to think that Wylla had anything to do with or was even at ToJ.

We only know that Wylla was Edric Dayne's wet nurse.

ETA: (I was making the leap of once a wet nurse, always a wet nurse. GRRM got me again, curses.)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Got it. We have no reason to think that Wylla had anything to do with or was even at ToJ.

We only know that Wylla was Edric Dayne's wet nurse.

ETA: (I was making the leap of once a wet nurse, always a wet nurse. GRRM got me again, curses.)

He really has a way of doing that, doesn't he?

It took me multiple rereads of that one scene with Arya and Ned Dayne before I could put my finger on what was bothering me about it all. And then... :idea:

[Techelles]

I'm warming to the idea that both Ashara and Wylla were involved. Your second point, about Wylla actually traveling with Ned from SE to ToJ to SF giving credence to N+W=J is exactly why. I was never convinced of how she fit in, for some reason Ned deciding to have Lyanna's midwife or the wet nurse pose as Jon's mother didn't make half the sense this does, if we are assuming she is some sort of trusted ladies maid or companion. Let's remember that it is only the assumption that Wylla is Jon's birth mother which leads Ned Dayne to assume he is Jon's milk brother. We have no other proof that Wylla was a wet nurse for Jon. In fact, all we know of that subject is that there was a wet nurse who was not Wylla when Jon arrived at WF.

To your first point, yes I'd say Lyanna (and probably Ashara as well) saw the writing on the wall after the Trident and Ashara was sent to Starfall with a specific task. The KG may have been complicit with the plan to get Lyanna to a ship, but not known of Wylla's mission to locate Ned. So they bid Ashara and Wylla godspeed assuming they are both heading to Starfall and once out of sight, the ladies split up and ride hell for leather in opposite directions.

Timeline is being streamlined here and motives clarified. I'm liking the Ashara scenario more and more, although I'm still holding on to my original supposition that Ashara's "Stark" was Brandon ;)

If both Ashara and Wylla left the tower, it would mean that other servants were at the tower who could look after Lyanna. I'm still not sure about all that. It's possible, though. But I prefer the idea that it was one or the other.

Again, the idea of Wylla (AFAWK just a commoner wet nurse) being allowed through the guards and filters of the army around Ned at SE does not seem likely. Why would she be let in to talk to Ned? Both Ashara and Wylla maybe. Also, why send away the wet nurse if the baby is already born or imminent.

I agree that it would be kinda silly to send away the wet nurse, which is why I prefer Ashara as candidate for the journey to Storm's End -- if we're just choosing between Wylla and Ashara, that is.

But I don't see Wylla having a problem getting an audience with Ned. I imagine he'd be a pretty accessible commander, actually, just as he's an accessible Lord back in Winterfell. Even with that aside, though, I'd think all Wylla would've had to do is mention Ashara Dayne. (Which would help start the rumors about Ned and Ashara, incidentally.)

Got it. We have no reason to think that Wylla had anything to do with or was even at ToJ.

We only know that Wylla was Edric Dayne's wet nurse.

ETA: (I was making the leap of once a wet nurse, always a wet nurse. GRRM got me again, curses.)

Not direct evidence, maybe, but I'd say we do have some grounds for thinking that Wylla was involved with the ToJ situation. If she hadn't been, I doubt she'd be in on the secret that Jon is not who Ned says he is. Ned wouldn't have told anyone after the promise, but if Wylla already knew, then Ned couldn't very well keep the secret from her. So he decided to make her part of his cover story. If she doesn't know anything, what's her motivation for claiming to be Jon's mother? I can't see Ned just paying her off. And if she hadn't been away from Starfall for some time, why would anyone there believe the story?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

If both Ashara and Wylla left the tower, it would mean that other servants were at the tower who could look after Lyanna. I'm still not sure about all that. It's possible, though. But I prefer the idea that it was one or the other.

I agree that it would be kinda silly to send away the wet nurse, which is why I prefer Ashara as candidate for the journey to Storm's End -- if we're just choosing between Wylla and Ashara, that is.

But I don't see Wylla having a problem getting an audience with Ned. I imagine he'd be a pretty accessible commander, actually, just as he's an accessible Lord back in Winterfell. Even with that aside, though, I'd think all Wylla would've had to do is mention Ashara Dayne. (Which would help start the rumors about Ned and Ashara, incidentally.)

Not direct evidence, maybe, but I'd say we do have some grounds for thinking that Wylla was involved with the ToJ situation. If she hadn't been, I doubt she'd be in on the secret that Jon is not who Ned says he is. Ned wouldn't have told anyone after the promise, but if Wylla already knew, then Ned couldn't very well keep the secret from her. So he decided to make her part of his cover story. If she doesn't know anything, what's her motivation for claiming to be Jon's mother? I can't see Ned just paying her off. And if she hadn't been away from Starfall for some time, why would anyone there believe the story?

I guess I'm viewing this as a big tent theory- room for everyone! If both Ashara and Wylla were at the tower but left that would indicate there may have been a maester there to care for Lyanna and the Maester Marywn theorists are in. Aslo, there wasn't a need for a wet nurse until Lyanna died, so there's no need to assume they would have had one hanging around. We are not given to believe that noble ladies didn't nurse their own babes unless it was actually impossible for them to do so (as in the case of Ned Dayne's mother) We do hear about Cersei, Catelyn and Elia having "babes at the breast" (and then there's the freakish Lyssa Arryn)

I agree about Ned being accessible to Wylla if she came with a message and also how her telling one of his men that she had a message for their lord from Lady Ashara would have started a few rumors. She would hardly have walked into camp and proclaimed that she came from Lyanna- think of the pandemonium! By the same token, if Ned and Wylla then spent weeks travelling together (from SE to ToJ to SF) and she didn't actually come from Starfall, how easy is would it be for them to spread the N+W=J story around once they got there?

I get super excited when my thoughts that have been swirling around all suddenly start to come together. At the same time, I'm perfectly willing to give over to a better theory with more support from the text. I love the debate though :)

[Alia of the knife]

This is genious :bowdown:

And she is your go-to person for reference links to the graphic novels, especially the one with Rhaegar without his helm, and the next frame is Jon.

Theres your "DNA" test. :bowdown:

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Nobel women did nurse their own children but most had wet nurses too. That was true in real life as well as in ASOIAF.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Nobel women did nurse their own children but most had wet nurses too. That was true in real life as well as in ASOIAF.

Do we have examples of wet nurses please? (from text not real life)

*edited for clarity

[Dr. Pepper]

Do we have examples please? (from text not real life)

I believe Catelyn, but don't have a quote. But for sure Lysa. That can't be forgotten.

[Jon Icefyre]

But for sure Lysa. That can't be forgotten.

But Lysa was bat shit crazy and nursed him all the way up until she died. Which some would suspect is the reason Robert is such a weird kid to begin with. So I wouldn't exactly call Lysa nursing her son normal behavior or even behavior that was approved of noble women in Westeros.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I believe Catelyn, but don't have a quote. But for sure Lysa. That can't be forgotten.

Lol - It's unclear because this was a comment on a comment, but I was asking for examples of noble ladies using wet nurses (other than the ones that were specifically singled out as being unable to nurse, like Ned Dayne's mother) the rest all seem to nurse their own babes, which is great but also a difference from real life medieval ladies.

As for Lysa the unforgettable breastfeeder... :shudder:

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I think Cat may have mentioned it, & there is the fact that the Dayne's had a wet nurse working for them for "years" but it isn't talked about all that much. But it was a common practice in medieval upper society, & GRRM knows that.

[Jon Icefyre]

I thought old nan was the Stark's wet nurse?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I think Cat may have mentioned it, & there is the fact that the Dayne's had a wet nurse working for them for "years" but it isn't talked about all that much. But it was a common practice in medieval upper society, & GRRM knows that.

See my comment above. Wylla is the only one I can recall being mentioned in the story and Ned Dayne's mother is singled out as having been unable to nurse her babe. I am well aware of the real life medieval practice of noble ladies using wet nurses. What I've been saying here is that Martin seems to be presenting us with something a little different when he specifically talks about Queens and high ladies with babes at the breast. The point, originally, was that there needn't be an expectation to have a wet nurse hovering around Lyanna at ToJ, since they really don't seem to have employed the practice unless it was necessary.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The point, originally, was that there needn't be an expectation to have a wet nurse hovering around Lyanna at ToJ, since they really don't seem to have employed the practice unless it was necessary.

Ah but there was no guarantee that Lyanna would survive (and she didn't), in which case, better to have a wet nurse and not need one than need one and not have one. I'm also pretty sure that Wylla was pulling triple duty — wet nurse, midwife and handmaiden.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I thought old nan was the Stark's wet nurse?

I think they mention that she was a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark ages ago, but let's face it- she's not likely to have been employed in that capacity in a verrry long time ;)

("She Wolves" ought to put that in context...)

[Techelles]

Ah but there was no guarantee that Lyanna would survive (and she didn't), in which case, better to have a wet nurse and not need one than need one and not have one. I'm also pretty sure that Wylla was pulling triple duty — wet nurse, midwife and handmaiden.

This exactly.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

See my comment above. Wylla is the only one I can recall being mentioned in the story and Ned Dayne's mother is singled out as having been unable to nurse her babe. I am well aware of the real life medieval practice of noble ladies using wet nurses. What I've been saying here is that Martin seems to be presenting us with something a little different when he specifically talks about Queens and high ladies with babes at the breast. The point, originally, was that there needn't be an expectation to have a wet nurse hovering around Lyanna at ToJ, since they really don't seem to have employed the practice unless it was necessary.

I would say that they would have one as a precaution! I mean come on, with so many things that could go wrong...it only makes sense!