R+L=J v.42

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Ah but there was no guarantee that Lyanna would survive (and she didn't), in which case, better to have a wet nurse and not need one than need one and not have one. I'm also pretty sure that Wylla was pulling triple duty — wet nurse, midwife and handmaiden.

Too true she didn't. Oddly, the whole not needing a wet nurse debate started as an exercise to prove that Wylla's role did not need to be limited to that one particular thing, which is something that never sat right with me. I elaborated on that several pages of wet nurse debate ago ;)

[Dr. Pepper]

Lol - It's unclear because this was a comment on a comment, but I was asking for examples of noble ladies using wet nurses (other than the ones that were specifically singled out as being unable to nurse, like Ned Dayne's mother) the rest all seem to nurse their own babes, which is great but also a difference from real life medieval ladies.

As for Lysa the unforgettable breastfeeder... :shudder:

Oops. Wasn't reading very well. :uhoh:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I would say that they would have one as a precaution! I mean come on, with so many things that could go wrong...it only makes sense!

Okay... Since this was not the main point of my original remarks I give on the wet nurse debate.

It's not what I really wanted to circle my wagons round after all ;)

[Ygrain]

I would say that they would have one as a precaution! I mean come on, with so many things that could go wrong...it only makes sense!

I would just remind that to be a wetnurse, the person has to be continuously nursing, i.e. would have to have some babe with her. No demand, no production. There can be a short interruption but certainly not hanging around TOJ for weeks or so.

[Ser Creighton]

You know I feel like I have been unfare in questioning some opinions on this topic. I figure you guys have reread the books a few time or at least the long time fans. So I thought maybe I will reread the books because we seem to have two different accounts of some things Ned said. Now I know Neds fevered dream about the tower is often recounted as a form of proof but I have seen it posted that you should not trust fevered dreams and that Martin said this. Not the exact wording of what he said but I am sure soome know what I am talking about. Now I don't want ot fight and I love a good debate. But I did just read this and it seemed a very different take than what I read on this thread. Cause this is what I remember reading, and it's directly from the book this is not a dream this is just his conversation with Robert.

AGoT, Eddard pg 58-59 on my Ipad.

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more.

So just to confirm Ned loved the hell out of his sister. Robert too, it may not have been perfect but he did love her and the first thing he does is pay his respect to her.

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the King. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could he could hear her still at times. "Promise me," she cried in a room that smelled of blood and roses. "Promis me, Ned." The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sisters eyes.

Now to me it sounds like he is just promising to bring her home, and that when he agreed she felt secure that she would go home to be beside her father and brother who had been killed. Ned states she wanted to come home that he promised her and he kept his promise. And she was the only person who died that he brought home.. That's what I have always read as the promise from a awake and alert Ned Stark.

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm dead and black. After that he remembered nothing.

Now the only thing I really get from this is the imagery of the dead Rose petals, which always reminds of the thornes from the crown of love and beauty. And the fact that she did have dead rose petals in the dream as wel lso they are real. No mention of a bloody bed. When I read that I always think of decieved with love, like "I really, really love you, but words are wind and their is danger beneath it. I also note that he was in so much grief that he literally passes out, or blacks out. Overwhelmed if you would.

They had found him still holding her body silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. Lyanna was... fond of flowers."

Two things here. Howland Reed of course and who are "they" They indicates more than one. Does anyone know if Martin made a mistake, cause "they" indicates more than one person.

My take on Neds actual words, is that Ned would actualy bring her flowers more often but that it is difficult for him to think about this. Also the ellipsis indicating an omisson. But I consider that him having problems talking about, he can't get all the words out.

The King touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gemtly as if it were living flesh. I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her."

"You did," Ned reminded him.

"Only once," Robert said bitterly.

Robert is under the impression that Rhaegar did something really bad to her. To me I read this as more than Rhaegar just taking Lyanna. I mean he seems to think Rhaegar did something very bad to her, and Ned seems to let him believe that. If it was love Ned could have always just said she did of a fever he never actually did anything to her or he regreted his mistake or something to make it a little easier on her memory. He took her but couldn't go through with it. But whatever happened to her Robert seems pretty angry and Ned seems pretty devestated to the point he can not really talk about it. It never felt like love gone wrong to me, always like a bad place, where bad things happened and painful memories. Lyanna also clearly wants to come home and that seems to be what the promise indicates.

When I think of Rhaegar and Lyanna blood and roses always stands out to me. I think deception, like he promised her roses and she only got blood, I think of the movie Blood and Roses which is also about using love to decieve, granted it's a female vampire doing it but that's what it's about. Also I always think of Rhaegar kind of reminding me of a Vampire with the Silver hair and the magical looking eye dressed in that black and red armor. Entrancing women with his harp. Granted he is not a Vampire, but he just strikes me as off, and so do his actions.

You know I won't argue if they are his parents or are not, I figure they have as good a shot as any, but I just don't see a love story. Even the whole think with the crown of love and beauty, it looks nice till you feel the thornes. The whole thing has always felt off to me, pulling a move like that in public on a 14 year old girl. To me if that's a romantic play for her, it's just creepy, his wife is there, her brother is right next to her. Like if he was just being nice, I get it, cool move, but if it's romantic it changes my whole opinion of the guy. Buddy your married you got a kid, she is 14, move along pedo. Then not long after having another kid he absconded with her. Parents? More than possible, but the love story hurts every moral I have.

Anyway that's my take, and seriously who is "they"

[dragontamer]

Honestly, when I reached FFC and understood the Kingsguard's oath it pretty much sealed the deal. It is like GRRM had written explicitly that Jon was born legitimately to Lyanna and Rhaegar. Those who doubt can only be doubting because Jon doesn't know, yet. At the tower we have three of the most honorable, "shining example to the rest of the world", men willing to die defending their king, even though we never get told that explicitly. We don't get told explicitly that Jon is there, but Lyanna had just given birth. Lyanna died of a fever, and the rose slipped from her hand to next appear at the wall of ice. Yes, it was Jon. Treason is a good reason that the truth could not be shared even with those who were most loved. That Rhaegar had had another son that had not been slain at King's Landing would be treason if not revealed to King Robert. There is no doubt what Robert would have done with said child.

I don’t doubt the integrity or loyalty of the 3 KG but I just need to remind first myself and then others that no POV character and one of them being actually of the KG and undoubtedly a loyal one, has never implied that Lyanna and Rhaegar could have been married since his sworn brothers were present there and not with Viserys or provided an explanation for their actions.

So, maybe, since not everything is set in stone, there could be another explanation that would justify why they chose to stay there and not go to Viserys. If it’s so clear why no one in Westeros seems to find it odd?

[Ygrain]

You know I feel like I have been unfare in questioning some opinions on this topic. I figure you guys have reread the books a few time or at least the long time fans. So I thought maybe I will reread the books because we seem to have two different accounts of some things Ned said. Now I know Neds fevered dream about the tower is often recounted as a form of proof but I have seen it posted that you should not trust fevered dreams and that Martin said this. Not the exact wording of what he said but I am sure soome know what I am talking about. Now I don't want ot fight and I love a good debate. But I did just read this and it seemed a very different take than what I read on this thread. Cause this is what I remember reading, and it's directly from the book this is not a dream this is just his conversation with Robert.

What GRRM says is that the dream is not to be taken literally. There are definitely dream elements, such as rose petals snowing around, or the wraith-companions, that can be attributed to fever, and the dream itself may not be a word for word script of what had happened, rather only the gist. However, the fight at ToJ is Ned’s recurring dream (or rather a nightmare), not just one feverish vision.

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the King. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could he could hear her still at times. "Promise me," she cried in a room that smelled of blood and roses. "Promis me, Ned." The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sisters eyes.

Now to me it sounds like he is just promising to bring her home, and that when he agreed she felt secure that she would go home to be beside her father and brother who had been killed. Ned states she wanted to come home that he promised her and he kept his promise. And she was the only person who died that he brought home.. That's what I have always read as the promise from a awake and alert Ned Stark.

You need to read on – you can skip the chapters in between and stick to Ned’s PoVs (and perhaps Dany’s). Later on, he muses how he always keeps his vows and that he paid a price for that, which is inconsistent with merely bringing her home. Furthermore, as he has already fulfilled this promise, there is no reason why it should haunt him like it does and in situations that it does (see below)

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm dead and black. After that he remembered nothing.

Now the only thing I really get from this is the imagery of the dead Rose petals, which always reminds of the thornes from the crown of love and beauty. And the fact that she did have dead rose petals in the dream as wel lso they are real. No mention of a bloody bed. When I read that I always think of decieved with love, like "I really, really love you, but words are wind and their is danger beneath it. I also note that he was in so much grief that he literally passes out, or blacks out. Overwhelmed if you would.

Again, the bed of blood is elsewhere – the hints are scattered all over Ned’s PoVs.

The importance of the roses here is the connection to Rhaegar, because he must have arranged the flowers for her, and that they were so dear to her that she held onto them on her deathbed.

The thorns underneath are a common symbolism, most ofteninterpreted that something that seems perfect and beautiful can also be dangerous or cause harm. In relation to the ASOIAF story, we can read the thorns as the tragedy that ensued and that no.one expected at that time, though this is not the only option.

They had found him still holding her body silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. Lyanna was... fond of flowers."

Two things here. Howland Reed of course and who are "they" They indicates more than one. Does anyone know if Martin made a mistake, cause "they" indicates more than one person.

My take on Neds actual words, is that Ned would actualy bring her flowers more often but that it is difficult for him to think about this. Also the ellipsis indicating an omisson. But I consider that him having problems talking about, he can't get all the words out.

Yes, he certainly rephrased what he meant to say and the subject is painful for him.

“They” is definitely not a mistake. There is no further hint to this anywhere, there can only be made a logical assumption that the ToJ must have been staffed to take care of Lyanna’s needs; the most common guess is a midwife/nurse which might be Wylla

The King touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gemtly as if it were living flesh. I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her."

"You did," Ned reminded him.

"Only once," Robert said bitterly.

Robert is under the impression that Rhaegar did something really bad to her. To me I read this as more than Rhaegar just taking Lyanna. I mean he seems to think Rhaegar did something very bad to her, and Ned seems to let him believe that. If it was love Ned could have always just said she did of a fever he never actually did anything to her or he regreted his mistake or something to make it a little easier on her memory. He took her but couldn't go through with it. But whatever happened to her Robert seems pretty angry and Ned seems pretty devestated to the point he can not really talk about it. It never felt like love gone wrong to me, always like a bad place, where bad things happened and painful memories. Lyanna also clearly wants to come home and that seems to be what the promise indicates.

When I think of Rhaegar and Lyanna blood and roses always stands out to me. I think deception, like he promised her roses and she only got blood, I think of the movie Blood and Roses which is also about using love to decieve, granted it's a female vampire doing it but that's what it's about. Also I always think of Rhaegar kind of reminding me of a Vampire with the Silver hair and the magical looking eye dressed in that black and red armor. Entrancing women with his harp. Granted he is not a Vampire, but he just strikes me as off, and so do his actions.

Elsewhere, Robert mention Rhaegar raping Lyanna repeatedly. We do not know what Ned stated as a cause of Lyanna’s death but claiming that Rhaegar never harmed Lyanna would have been little use, IMHO, as abducting a girl he fell for and then not having sex with her would hardly sound plausible.

True enough, this particular scene suggests nothing about love; this again comes from hints further on – perhaps rather than hints, there are facts which do not fit.

First, Dany speaks about Rhaegar dying for the woman he loved – not necessarily true, as she has no way of knowing what really happened, but at least it demonstrates that there is a different version of the story.

Then, you have the name of the place – Tower of Joy. That would be pretty calluous from a rapist to call that the place where he brutalized and imprisoned his victim.

Next, that weird thought about Rhaegar, unlike Robert, not frequenting brothels – the actual content of the comparison does not really matter; the strange thing is that a comparison between the betrothed and the rapist is drawn at all, and that it is one favourable of the rapist. It’s a very weird thing to think for the brother of the raped victim – unless there was no rape. (Personally, this particular sentence set me on the track – it was a moment of WTF, why is he thinking this?!)

Next there is that scene when Jorah compares Dany to Rhaegar when she saves Eroeh from further raping, saying that this is what Rhaegar would have done – again, something inconsistent with the picture of an uncaring rapist. We may claim that Jorah wasn’t at ToJ and cannot know what happened or not but it is yet another piece that doesn’t fit.

Finally, you have that mention about Lyanna’s wolf blood that caused her early death, which very clearly indicates some action on Lyanna’s part that made her complicit in her fate, not merely someone’s victim.

None of these hints carries much weight on its own; together, though, they form the same patterns, all point to the same conclusion: Rhaegar never raped Lyanna.

You know I won't argue if they are his parents or are not, I figure they have as good a shot as any, but I just don't see a love story. Even the whole think with the crown of love and beauty, it looks nice till you feel the thornes. The whole thing has always felt off to me, pulling a move like that in public on a 14 year old girl. To me if that's a romantic play for her, it's just creepy, his wife is there, her brother is right next to her. Like if he was just being nice, I get it, cool move, but if it's romantic it changes my whole opinion of the guy. Buddy your married you got a kid, she is 14, move along pedo. Then not long after having another kid he absconded with her. Parents? More than possible, but the love story hurts every moral I have.

Anyway that's my take, and seriously who is "they"

Here I would like to address the matter of Lyanna’s age. While considered a child by contemporary standards, she is already a young woman by Westerosi ones (Sansa says that noble girls start bleeding at 12-13, so Lyanna is most probably also “flowered”). Add to it earlier mental maturity, and the picture you receive is definitely not one of a Humbert Humbert. – Plus, it’s not unrealistic even in RL: when I was 14, I was still a kid – another girl I knew, older by just a couple of months but still 14, was a woman already and looked and behaved 16. That’s fully adult by Westerosi standards.

[Ygrain]

I don’t doubt the integrity or loyalty of the 3 KG but I just need to remind first myself and then others that no POV character and one of them being actually of the KG and undoubtedly a loyal one, has never implied that Lyanna and Rhaegar could have been married since his sworn brothers were present there and not with Viserys or provided an explanation for their actions.

So, maybe, since not everything is set in stone, there could be another explanation that would justify why they chose to stay there and not go to Viserys. If it’s so clear why no one in Westeros seems to find it odd?

We think it clear because we know the content of their conversation and that they were apparently aware of Aerys and Aegon's death. Leave that information out (plus the one about bed of blood), mention that it was a remote location in the middle of nowhere, and the logical conclusion is that they never knew a thing until Ned turned up, and couldn't be reasoned with to abandon their previous order to guard Lyanna or to bend knee.

[Bossman Tyrion]

AGoT, Eddard pg 58-59 on my Ipad.

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more.

So just to confirm Ned loved the hell out of his sister. Robert too, it may not have been perfect but he did love her and the first thing he does is pay his respect to her.

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the King. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could he could hear her still at times. "Promise me," she cried in a room that smelled of blood and roses. "Promis me, Ned." The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sisters eyes.

Now to me it sounds like he is just promising to bring her home, and that when he agreed she felt secure that she would go home to be beside her father and brother who had been killed. Ned states she wanted to come home that he promised her and he kept his promise. And she was the only person who died that he brought home.. That's what I have always read as the promise from a awake and alert Ned Stark.

I can't see why this would play on Ned's mind after he'd returned her body to winterfell...

"You did," Ned reminded him.

"Only once," Robert said bitterly.

Robert is under the impression that Rhaegar did something really bad to her. To me I read this as more than Rhaegar just taking Lyanna. I mean he seems to think Rhaegar did something very bad to her, and Ned seems to let him believe that. If it was love Ned could have always just said she did of a fever he never actually did anything to her or he regreted his mistake or something to make it a little easier on her memory. He took her but couldn't go through with it. But whatever happened to her Robert seems pretty angry and Ned seems pretty devestated to the point he can not really talk about it. It never felt like love gone wrong to me, always like a bad place, where bad things happened and painful memories. Lyanna also clearly wants to come home and that seems to be what the promise indicates.

When I think of Rhaegar and Lyanna blood and roses always stands out to me. I think deception, like he promised her roses and she only got blood, I think of the movie Blood and Roses which is also about using love to decieve, granted it's a female vampire doing it but that's what it's about. Also I always think of Rhaegar kind of reminding me of a Vampire with the Silver hair and the magical looking eye dressed in that black and red armor. Entrancing women with his harp. Granted he is not a Vampire, but he just strikes me as off, and so do his actions.

It's not within Ned's interests to let Robert know that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and that they had a child, especially given the promise Ned made Lyana - Robert would almost certainly go straight away and kill the child (he hats Targs...)

You know I won't argue if they are his parents or are not, I figure they have as good a shot as any, but I just don't see a love story. Even the whole think with the crown of love and beauty, it looks nice till you feel the thornes. The whole thing has always felt off to me, pulling a move like that in public on a 14 year old girl. To me if that's a romantic play for her, it's just creepy, his wife is there, her brother is right next to her. Like if he was just being nice, I get it, cool move, but if it's romantic it changes my whole opinion of the guy. Buddy your married you got a kid, she is 14, move along pedo. Then not long after having another kid he absconded with her. Parents? More than possible, but the love story hurts every moral I have.

I've italicized the key part, what you find morally obtuse is not the same as what is to be found morally obtuse in aSoIaF... They do not have an 'over 16 only' law, it is when nature says the maiden is ready - when she flowers. Typically this is years before the age of 16. It is not even a stretch to imagine Lyanna as a woman at the age of 14.

Anyway that's my take, and seriously who is "they"

Wet nurse + Reed maybe?

[dragontamer]

We think it clear because we know the content of their conversation and that they were apparently aware of Aerys and Aegon's death. Leave that information out (plus the one about bed of blood), mention that it was a remote location in the middle of nowhere, and the logical conclusion is that they never knew a thing until Ned turned up, and couldn't be reasoned with to abandon their previous order to guard Lyanna or to bend knee.

I am not talking about the 3 KG present or about that time around Lyanna's death or prior. I talk about after the war was over. Barristan knows that his brothers died there and knows about Rhaegar and the lady he loved (Lyanna) and that she was found there. But neither he, a KG member, nor anyone else POV wonders about the KG presence at the TOJ or concludes that an heir should have been inside.

I'm not sure how realistic is for all characters to assume that no knews reached them of the king's and heir's death. It's not like Dorne was a war zone.

[Ghost's Shadow]

That might just have to do with the fact that the parentage of Jon Snow is supposed to be a series long mystery, same as Ned never saw Jon and thought of him as Lyanna's son, and I guess same for Rhaegar. He does say he's 'of his blood (= Stark)' but never includes him as his son in his thoughts.

[Ygrain]

I am not talking about the 3 KG present or about that time around Lyanna's death or prior. I talk about after the war was over. Barristan knows that his brothers died there and knows about Rhaegar and the lady he loved (Lyanna) and that she was found there. But neither he, a KG member, nor anyone else POV wonders about the KG presence at the TOJ or concludes that an heir should have been inside.

Sorry, I didn't express myself clearly. I meant my previous post as an answer to what you asked - why no-one in Westeros suspected the presence of another Targ heir at ToJ. I wanted to say that if Ned claimed that Lyanna died of some non-birth related causes and that the KG were not in touch with the latest development, everyone would think that the KG were there to guard her on Rhaegar's orders.

I'm not sure how realistic is for all characters to assume that no knews reached them of the king's and heir's death. It's not like Dorne was a war zone.

No but the location is remote and isolated and news would take a long time to travel; places with little to no contact with the rest of Westeros would easily learn months or years later, there's nothing unrealistic about it.

[FrozenFire3]

I am not talking about the 3 KG present or about that time around Lyanna's death or prior. I talk about after the war was over. Barristan knows that his brothers died there and knows about Rhaegar and the lady he loved (Lyanna) and that she was found there. But neither he, a KG member, nor anyone else POV wonders about the KG presence at the TOJ or concludes that an heir should have been inside.

I'm not sure how realistic is for all characters to assume that no knews reached them of the king's and heir's death. It's not like Dorne was a war zone.

People assumed that in such a secluded location news of the Trident and/or the sack hadn't reached them. Simple as that. The fact that the king himself looked for Rhaegar's little love nest for a long time - with no results - supported their assumption. It's not to be excluded that Ned validated such a 'vox populi' btw. He had a way of validating other people's (wrong?) assumptions with his tacit consent.

ETA Ygrain, R+L=Jers minds think alike LOL

This is genious :bowdown:

Why, thank you :blushing: :love:

I like to analyse the narrative structure and the whole creative process. It's just my inner classicist nerd at work.There so much Greek tragedy/mythology foundation in GRRM's work (besides evident historical parallels and modern fantasy influence) and if Euripides or Sophocles' are clichés, well, what can I say? People have been hopelessly reading and loving cliché for a good 2 and a half millennia now ;)

And she is your go-to person for reference links to the graphic novels, especially the one with Rhaegar without his helm, and the next frame is Jon.

Theres your "DNA" test. :bowdown:

:D http://www.imagebam....fb26a8214244640

Already ordered GoT comics #12 btw. Waiting like a caged direwolf fateful issue number 13: http://www.imagebam....09e911212723572

[Alia of the knife]

People assumed that in such a secluded location news of the Trident and/or the sack hadn't reached them. Simple as that. The fact that the king himself looked for Rhaegar's little love nest for a long time - with no results - supported their assumption. It's not to be excluded that Ned validated such a 'vox populi' btw. He had a way of validating other people's (wrong?) assumptions with his tacit consent.

ETA Ygrain, R+L=Jers minds think alike LOL

Why, thank you :blushing: :love:

I like to analyse the narrative structure and the whole creative process. It's just my inner classicist nerd at work.There so much Greek tragedy/mythology foundation in GRRM's work (besides evident historical parallels and modern fantasy influence) and if Euripides or Sophocles' are clichés, well, what can I say? People have been hopelessly reading and loving cliché for a good 2 and a half millennia now ;)

:D http://www.imagebam....fb26a8214244640

Already ordered GoT comics #12 btw. Waiting like a caged direwolf fateful issue number 13: http://www.imagebam....09e911212723572

Agreed, you can see the influence of the Classics all through this.

In terms of history, I think you could see shades of Caligula in Joffrey, though he didn't live long enough to see that depravity play out.

And again, thanks for the links, I can go to work happy now. :P

[Budj]

I always kind of read into that argument with Ned and Robert about where Lyanna should be buried as Lyanna wanting to be back in WF to be near her son. Not necessary and maybe overly romanticized, haha, but it stands out to me that Martin dropped the "Promise me, Ned" in this early conversation as you don't get any other context with regards to a counter of Robert's take on the ToJ situation until later.

[Tyrion4President]

Couldn't agree more. On top of the fact that the whole rebellion situation in general was full of grey areas. You have heroes on both sides fighting for two kings that turn out be the villians. For the loyalists you have heroes like Rhaegar fighting for his father the Mad king, on the rebel side you have heroes like Ned Stark fighting for Robert who in my opinion is one of the biggest secrete villians of the story. A man who was blinded by pure hatred of the Targs to the point where he allowed/approved the slaughtering of innocent children without consequence one of which was still a baby. I highly suspect Robert's hatred for the Targs did not start when Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar(although it did increase it) I think Robert's hatred of the Targs started the day he saw his father die in that ship wreck coming from Essos on the order's of Aerys in order to find Rhaegar a wife, I mean it makes sense. I think Robert blamed Aerys for his father's death afterall if Aerys didn't send his father to find Rhaegar a wife he would have never been on that ship. Robert's hatred for the Targs/Aerys and Rhaegar secretly started at that moment.

yes but didnt Robert use his distant Targaryan lineage to strenghthen his claim the the throne? im sure there are some deep rooted issues that justify Roberts hate for the Targs but he does use it to his advantage when its convienient.

[MtnLion]

I don’t doubt the integrity or loyalty of the 3 KG but I just need to remind first myself and then others that no POV character and one of them being actually of the KG and undoubtedly a loyal one, has never implied that Lyanna and Rhaegar could have been married since his sworn brothers were present there and not with Viserys or provided an explanation for their actions.

So, maybe, since not everything is set in stone, there could be another explanation that would justify why they chose to stay there and not go to Viserys. If it’s so clear why no one in Westeros seems to find it odd?

Because no one in Westeros, outside of Howland and Ned know it. We have hashed the Kingsguard's words and actions with multiple scenarios, and in no case should all three remain and die unless their king is being defended, meaning Jon.

ETA: Now the news that Barristan and everyone else gets is tempered by the need to protect the secret (treason). Ned hurriedly stifles rumors of his single combat defeat of Arthur, for instance.

[Ser Leftwich]

"... the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black." AGoT p. 44

Are these rose petals left over from the crown that Rhaegar gave Lyanna? I have always thought that these petals were meant to be from the crown to show that she had kept it.

Also, was the crown something that was prepared by the Whent's or did Rhaegar make up the crown of winter roses because he knew that Lyanna loved those flowers?

[Zupoleon]

"... the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black." AGoT p. 44

Are these rose petals left over from the crown that Rhaegar gave Lyanna? I have always thought that these petals were meant to be from the crown to show that she had kept it.

Also, was the crown something that was prepared by the Whent's or did Rhaegar make up the crown of winter roses because he knew that Lyanna loved those flowers?

I can't remember if it's explicitly stated, but yes, that's the implication.

[Jon Icefyre]

yes but didnt Robert use his distant Targaryan lineage to strenghthen his claim the the throne? im sure there are some deep rooted issues that justify Roberts hate for the Targs but he does use it to his advantage when its convienient.

Regardless it's pretty damn clear Robert hated the Targs more than anything lol. He admitted on more than one occasion that he wanted to exterminate them all and wouldn't be satisfied until he did. I'm just saying I don't think his hatred started at the TOH or the events that followed the TOH like many people think. To me Robert's Targ hatred started when his father died in that shipwreck, but yes I always thought it was ironic that Roberts Targ blood was the reason he was sitting on the Irone Throne.