Cersei, Lysa, and the Valonqar

[Sneak]

Wasn't Hoster Tully trying to set Lysa and Jaime up at one point? Or was it Jaime and Catelyn?

[DreamSongs]

I was actually doing an Ironborn reread this weekend and started looking at some of the parallels in POV females like Asha, Brienne, Sansa, Cersei. I hadn't thought about comparing Cersei and Lysa before. The most striking thing I see in those POVs is how they manage to place themselves in a male-domineered world. Cersei is resentful of never having the opportunity to break out of her female role whereas Asha and Brienne are able to do so with the support of family. I think overall that would mke a fabulous thread.

[DreamSongs]

Wasn't Hoster Tully trying to set Lysa and Jaime up at one point? Or was it Jaime and Catelyn?

Catelyn was promised to Brandon Stark. Talk was beginning of Lysa Tully and Jaime. Cersei gave Jaime the news and covinced him that by taking the white that he would not have to marry Lysa and would be able to remain with Cersei. The talk was also of Barbrey Dustin to marry Ned, but with Brandon's death, Ned was betrothed to Catelyn

[Pinkie Baelish]

"Only Brienne". He gave her a short, sharp choke.

I don't want to see Jaime + Brienne, but I wouldn't mind this happening.

[Lady Seaworth]

An awesome thread, I never thought abot the similarities before as the two are very different otherwise. I'm just wondering whether these similarities are intentional or whether GRRM subconsciously used some cliches.

I hope they were intentional. I think the parallels really serve to highlight Cersei's decline - seeing her gradually follow the same patterns as Lysa seems to emphasise Cersei's growing lack of control.

Even at the start I think Lysa comes off as someone desperately clinging to the power she's gained through her marriage, after the death of her husband. It's interesting to see this reflected in Cersei later in the series, as Cersei initially appears to be a powerful woman on top of her game (before we learn that she's not all that competent). I never would have imagined Cersei winding up like Lysa while I was reading the first couple of books.

I was actually doing an Ironborn reread this weekend and started looking at some of the parallels in POV females like Asha, Brienne, Sansa, Cersei. [...] I think overall that would mke a fabulous thread.

Ooh, yes! A comprehensive comparison of the female POVs and the way they break (or conform to) their "traditional" gender roles would make for some pretty good discussion. I think the gender role debate could extend to discussing the male POVs, too. I mean, we've got characters like Sam, who was basically disowned for not living up to his expectations, as the son of a lord, to be courageous and able with a sword. (I doubt his father would have been bothered about his temperament if Sam was a daughter instead of a son).

[Brienne Of Bombay]

"Only Brienne". He gave her a short, sharp choke.

I would love to see this happen!!

[Sneak]

Catelyn was promised to Brandon Stark. Talk was beginning of Lysa Tully and Jaime. Cersei gave Jaime the news and covinced him that by taking the white that he would not have to marry Lysa and would be able to remain with Cersei. The talk was also of Barbrey Dustin to marry Ned, but with Brandon's death, Ned was betrothed to Catelyn

Ah thanks (I need to reread). So I guess they kind of, sort of, maybe have Jaime as a almost parallel.

[Minstral]

If Cersei's death follows that closely to Lysa's death then I would be a little bit disappointed. It would be both predictable and not so original. Does the Valonqar even need to be one of Cersei's little brothers, or can it be the "Valonqar" of the queen that would cast her down?

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Does the Valonqar even need to be one of Cersei's little brothers, or can it be the "Valonqar" of the queen that would cast her down?

Yes, it could also be the little brother of the younger queen. But I think that with all the forshadowing about Jaime and Cersei coming into the world together and going to leave it together etc, I think Jaime is still very much the frontrunner of the possible candidates, even if the field is blown wide open by a looser interpretation of who the valonqar might be.

[Ygrain]

I hope they were intentional. I think the parallels really serve to highlight Cersei's decline - seeing her gradually follow the same patterns as Lysa seems to emphasise Cersei's growing lack of control.

Even at the start I think Lysa comes off as someone desperately clinging to the power she's gained through her marriage, after the death of her husband. It's interesting to see this reflected in Cersei later in the series, as Cersei initially appears to be a powerful woman on top of her game (before we learn that she's not all that competent). I never would have imagined Cersei winding up like Lysa while I was reading the first couple of books.

Great insight.

[TalalOfDorne]

Good analysis OP, et al. I hadn't made the connection between Lysa and Cersei before. Much like R+L=J, it seems obvious when all of these dots are connected in one thread.

Thank you! I havent though about til recently as well. The fact that both characters dont have much connection makes it less obvious.

[TalalOfDorne]

If Cersei's death follows that closely to Lysa's death then I would be a little bit disappointed. It would be both predictable and not so original. Does the Valonqar even need to be one of Cersei's little brothers, or can it be the "Valonqar" of the queen that would cast her down?

I thought the similarities between Cersei and Lysa added more weight on the "Jaime Is The Valonqar" argument, but as you said it might not be that way.

After all who knows what Martin will do ?

[DreamSongs]

Yes, it could also be the little brother of the younger queen. But I think that with all the forshadowing about Jaime and Cersei coming into the world together and going to leave it together etc, I think Jaime is still very much the frontrunner of the possible candidates, even if the field is blown wide open by a looser interpretation of who the valonqar might be.

I wouldn't say that there is alot of foreshadowing about Jaime and Cersei coming/leaving the world together. I've always felt like the emphasis there is on thier belief that that they are the same-- 'If I were a man, I'd be Jaime/If I were a woman, I'd be Cersei'. Those are thier beliefs based on a lifetime together, but ASOS and AFFC shows that they are not on that same trajectory. And that they are two seperate individuals. I think Cersei has always known this, but used Jaime's adoration for manipulation. To Jaime, it is newfound knowledge after his maiming.

I think Jaime being the Volanquer is far too obvious.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I wouldn't say that there is alot of foreshadowing about Jaime and Cersei coming/leaving the world together. I've always felt like the emphasis there is on thier belief that that they are the same-- 'If I were a man, I'd be Jaime/If I were a woman, I'd be Cersei'. Those are thier beliefs based on a lifetime together, but ASOS and AFFC shows that they are not on that same trajectory. And that they are two seperate individuals. I think Cersei has always known this, but used Jaime's adoration for manipulation. To Jaime, it is newfound knowledge after his maiming.

I think Jaime being the Volanquer is far too obvious.

All too often, "obvious" stuff is obvious for a reason: Because it just works so well. And it always bears keeping in mind that on this board the most dedicated fans congregate. What might be "too obvious" to you can still easily elude many a casual reader - and they comprise a large part of GRRM's readership.

By the way, I did not get the impression that all these quotes were just meant to signify that Cersei thinks if she were a man she'd be Jaime and vice versa... "We will leave this world together, as we once came into it"... "I cannot die while Cersei lives. We will die together as we were born together"... "If he were dead, I would know it. We came into this world together, Uncle. He would not go without me" ... these are very specific about shared birth implying shared death and I cannot imagine that's a coincidence.

[TalalOfDorne]

Both treat Sansa the same.

Lysa tried to kill Sansa and got killed instead. I never recalled Cersei trying to kill Sansa, but she allowed her to get harmed. Now im wondering if harming Sansa will have something to with her downfall as well.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Really interesting thread.

And yes it does seem to point to Jaime killing Cersei. Which I've thought for a while, so I'm down. ;)

Lysa tried to kill Sansa and got killed instead. I never recalled Cersei trying to kill Sansa, but she allowed her to get harmed. Now im wondering if harming Sansa will have something to with her downfall as well.

And remember too that Jaime and Brienne are on their quest specifically to find and/or protect Sansa.

[Dolorous Nedd]

This thread is almost spine chilling! Absolutely incredible how many similarities there are. GRRM is a genius. This does lend some hope that Jamie and Brienne may both survive the Lady Stonehart mess, assuming Jamie kills Cersei because of Cersei threatening Brienne.

[TalalOfDorne]

This thread is almost spine chilling! Absolutely incredible how many similarities there are. GRRM is a genius. This does lend some hope that Jamie and Brienne may both survive the Lady Stonehart mess, assuming Jamie kills Cersei because of Cersei threatening Brienne.

He is. And now Im really looking forward to (or hoping for) a Sansa-Brienne-Jaime trio uniting against Cersei

[Where Boars Glow]

I have noticed this for a while but Cersei and Lysa seem to have a lot of similarities in their story lines and appear to be going in a similar direction.

1- Their dream husbands: Both of them seem to have hoped to marry another man. Cersei wanted Rhaegar and Lysa wanted LF. Both of them were let down.

2- Their actual marriages: They are both eventually part of a rather unhappy marriage.

3- Losing children: Cersei lost Joffrey. Lysa may not have lost a child but has suffered a number of miscarriages and had stillborns.

4- Widowing themselves: They both play a hand in ending their marriages.

5-: Paranoia: We see them starting to doubt everyone and alienating their own family as well

6- Death and betrayal:

Lysa: Betrayed by the man she thought had loved her.

Cersei: ???

What Im trying to get to is that they shared a lot of similar situations. But will they share the same way of death?

Does this reinforce that Jaime might be the Valonqar? She does think that he still loves her.

I think the parelelles say more about the plight of the highborn Westerosy woman. The whole system was set up to treat them as barganing chips to be traded and used by fathers and brothers to ice deals. You could throw Lyanna, Cat, Selyse, ect ect in the same boat.

All of them handled that crap situation a bit different.

[TalalOfDorne]

I think the parelelles say more about the plight of the highborn Westerosy woman. The whole system was set up to treat them as barganing chips to be traded and used by fathers and brothers to ice deals. You could throw Lyanna, Cat, Selyse, ect ect in the same boat.

All of them handled that crap situation a bit different.

I agree a lot of women face similar situations in Westeros.

I tried to see if there were the same kinds of similarities between other characters like Cersei and Catelyn but couldn't find as much parallels between them as Cersei and Lysa. So yes women do deal with their situation a bit differently from each other but they do not always deal with them in a strikingly similar way.