Cersei, Lysa, and the Valonqar

[Snow Storm]

Great thread, I hadn't ever considered this, mostly because I'm not somebody who does to much analysis, but I saw the title and it seemed so obvious.

A few guys have already admitted to having sexual relations with Cersei one of the Kettlebacks and Lancel come to mind. The High Sparrow would probably assume it was one of them and not Jaime who was and again is away for war

Yes but it could potentially make many other people believe that if she was willing to have sexual relations with her cousin, and a common sellsword (I forget which Kettleback it was), that she was cheating on Robert during their marriage.

[Sailor's Wife]

Interesting.... I'm quite intrigued. I've never read the whole bible, so this is completely out of my waters, however I vaguely remember reading somewhere that some cultures consider twins to be a curse? I'm definitely not sure on that.

You must admit, GrrM writes the theme of "twins" in a very sinister way. Whenever they're mentioned, something dark occurs. Jaime and Cersei are cursed twins, the Twins of the Freys are cursed... there was even a mention of the Redwyne twins that bullied Sam.

I can't think of an occurance of a positively written set of twins. So I'm wondering if there's something there?

When I have more time, I'd like to explore this topic... it might all be a first impression anyways.

[Sailor's Wife]

You could have something there. More than anything, the 'holding the heel' reference made me think that Cersei was the resentful older twin--in her case, because she wanted to be a man, able to be the heir, able to control her own life. Jaime got the birthright as Jacob did, or would have, if not for becoming a KG. And she did reach a point that she became inflexible for Jaime, unwilling to bend--he was quoted as saying he always had to go to her. I liken that to Edom refusing to let Israel cross in its hour of need. Perhaps Cersei is in fact the cursed of the two (prophecy certainly would back that up), or as you say, they are both potentially cursed.

[Sailor's Wife]

The more I think about this, the inflexibility of both Lysa and Cersei also stands out. Perhaps they could also be said to have siblings they resented, as Lysa gave the impression she did Cat.

[TalalOfDorne]

The more I think about this, the inflexibility of both Lysa and Cersei also stands out. Perhaps they could also be said to have siblings they resented, as Lysa gave the impression she did Cat.

Now Im starting to think if Lysa is also part of a secret prophecy that she never told anyone about. We only knew of Maggy the Frog when Cersei became a POV. Is it possible that Lysa may have had her own Maggy?

[Snark_Tamer]

Oh, this is brilliant stuff--thank you all, for fabulous analysis. And I love that Jaime has lost the hand that came into the world holding Cersei--he's been freed from his devotion of her (and maybe she has lost her direction, too).

It hasn't been specifically mentioned, but both Lysa and Cersei, when they feel threatened, respond by isolating as much as possible. Lysa refuses to join the rebellion and is angry that even her SISTER would come to the Vale uninvited (and bring the danger of Tyrion). Cersei, likewise, is getting rid of anyone she feels is 'not hers', which ends up filling the small counsel and Kings Guard with less-than-qualified people.

I like Sansa connected in both of the endings... Jaime is trying to restore his honor by protecting Sansa--that is why he sent Brienne out to find her. But when it comes to Cersei's attention she's been found, you can bet Cersei will think Sansa needs to pay for 'killing Joffrey'. I think it will be in her attempt to kill Sansa that Jaime ends up killing Cersei.

[TalalOfDorne]

It hasn't been specifically mentioned, but both Lysa and Cersei, when they feel threatened, respond by isolating as much as possible. Lysa refuses to join the rebellion and is angry that even her SISTER would come to the Vale uninvited (and bring the danger of Tyrion). Cersei, likewise, is getting rid of anyone she feels is 'not hers', which ends up filling the small counsel and Kings Guard with less-than-qualified people.

:agree: The both do this. Lysa refused Catelyn and didnt aid Robb, her nephew. Cersei does the same with Jaime. And of course theres her Tyrion paranoia as well.

[Mrs. Tyrion Lannister]

You must admit, GrrM writes the theme of "twins" in a very sinister way. Whenever they're mentioned, something dark occurs. Jaime and Cersei are cursed twins, the Twins of the Freys are cursed... there was even a mention of the Redwyne twins that bullied Sam.

Also Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk? Not the QoT's "Left and Right," but historical twins (Kingsguard) who died on one anothers' swords during the Dance of the Dragons.

ETA: http://awoiaf.wester...index.php/Arryk

ETA Again: I agree this is a terrific thread. I had not considered similarities in the story lines of Cersei and Lysa, yet here they are, lots of them.

[Dolorous Eddard]

So might Brienne be the "younger and more beautiful [person] to cast [Cersei] down and take all that she holds dear," as predicted by Maggy the Frog? But maybe not, since it doesn't seem that Cersei holds Jamie dearly anymore.

[TalalOfDorne]

So might Brienne be the "younger and more beautiful [person] to cast [Cersei] down and take all that she holds dear," as predicted by Maggy the Frog? But maybe not, since it doesn't seem that Cersei holds Jamie dearly anymore.

Well Jamie certainly doesnt hold her dearly, but I dont completely get that from Cersei. She thought that he was coming to her rescue, and when he didnt she thought he never got the letter.

Or maybe it means that she THINKS he still holds her dearly, but she herself doesn't anymore.

[Hermione]

I have to wonder though if Cersei ever really held Jaime dearly and loved him, or if she realised early on she could use his devotion to her best advance. It always seemed to be that what Cersei liked best about Jaime was how he reminded her of herself - so that in loving Jaime, she only loved herself.

Which is not really a parallel with Lysa and LF because I don't think Lysa ever saw herself in LF.

[mrunderhill]

I have to wonder though if Cersei ever really held Jaime dearly and loved him, or if she realised early on she could use his devotion to her best advance. It always seemed to be that what Cersei liked best about Jaime was how he reminded her of herself - so that in loving Jaime, she only loved herself.

Which is not really a parallel with Lysa and LF because I don't think Lysa ever saw herself in LF.

It depends on what your definition of love, but I cannot recall Cersei ever making a sacrifice for Jaime. It was always Jaime giving up things for her. The only person Cersei seems to have ever had a pure unselfish love for is Joffrey.

Lysa loved Littlefinger before she was driven over the edge by her father's betrayal and being forced to marry Jon. Littlefinger was very clever, witty and they spent a lot of time together. Nothing strange about a sweet shy girl falling for him.

[TalalOfDorne]

I just saw one on another thread: Both rule instead of their children as they (The mothers) have no birth right to the seat they hold.

[The Bear]

Just a couple of questions:

- How do we know the hand he held onto Cersei's heel with is the one he lost? Chances are he used his dominant hand but I don't think it can be taken for granted because of the lack of space in the birth canal - he might have been forced to reach with his other hand.

- I was always under the impression Cersei killed her friend simply because she witnessed the prophecy. Where does the idea she killed her because she liked Jaime come from?

Other than that I don't really have anything to ask or to add. Amazing comparison, I'd never noticed it before.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

- I was always under the impression Cersei killed her friend simply because she witnessed the prophecy. Where does the idea she killed her because she liked Jaime come from?

I'll leave your other question to someone more competent, but about this one: Yes, it's quite likely that Melara witnessing the prophecy has something to do with her death as well (as Melara herself said, "a forgotten prophecy can't come true"). However, Cersei did resent Melara flaming for Jaime:

Cersei had not had a friend she so enjoyed since Melara Hetherspoon, and Melara had turned out to be a greedy little schemer with ideas above her station. I should not think ill of her. She’s dead and drowned, and she taught me never to trust anyone but Jaime.

[The Bear]

I remember that line, it just never gave me the impression it was motivation for killing her. I just read the 'Did Cersei kill Melara' thread and it's definitely given me something to think about.

[TalalOfDorne]

Both of them get the men they love to Kings Landing!

Cersei: Gets Jaime to join the KG and Aerys approves.

Lysa: Asks Jon Arryn to give Petyr a job in KL.

[TalalOfDorne]

Just thought of this:

Is it safe to assume that they both had "Daddy Issues"? Lysa certainly did, and maybe even Cersei as well.

[TalalOfDorne]

I remember that line, it just never gave me the impression it was motivation for killing her. I just read the 'Did Cersei kill Melara' thread and it's definitely given me something to think about.

I would say that the prophecy was a major reason, but who knows? She could have done because of Jaime as well.

[Lady Nastja]

Just thought of this:

Is it safe to assume that they both had "Daddy Issues"? Lysa certainly did, and maybe even Cersei as well.

I would say so. Lysa's issues are obvious, and Cersei's, while not as easy to identify, are also there too. Great work on the theory by the way, you have me sold.