Robb and the Red Wedding

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

i dont think that can be considered oathbreaking though...

yea it is. the greatjon threatens robb and says he will march his men back home when they gather the banners at winterfell in the 1st book. robb says that after the war he will come back and hang greatjon for being an oathbreaker. the tullys are lord paramounts of the trident or the riverlands and not answering a call for banners is considered oathbreaking although i don't know why he was not killed after robert's rebellion for arriving late to the battle.

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

I will make no argument stating my POV isn't biased, as obviously I am very upset as a Robb fan. Yet I do care about other characters, which is why I stated that I'm sticking with the series despite my misgivings for its author. I have much hope in and love for Jon Snow, and I think that Theon's story is incredibly interesting--I have a fleeting hope that he might yet redeem himself before his death, if it comes. I also favor Edmure Tully, who thankfully was spared of the RW.

how do you like edmure tully? he's one of the biggest reason robb died. all he had to do was obey his orders and hold riverrun and trap tywin in the westerlands. stannis would have won the battle of the blackwater and robb would then have pledged fealty to stannis and defeated tywin together. edmure was jealous and wanted glory and decided to chase away the mountain from the stone mill. his decision hurt robb's plan big time

[Minsc]

how do you like edmure tully? he's one of the biggest reason robb died. all he had to do was obey his orders and hold riverrun and trap tywin in the westerlands. stannis would have won the battle of the blackwater and robb would then have pledged fealty to stannis and defeated tywin together. edmure was jealous and wanted glory and decided to chase away the mountain from the stone mill. his decision hurt robb's plan big time

Edmure fulfilled his orders as best as he knew how, in how he had no idea what Robb was planning in regards to the efforts of attempting to trap Tywin.

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

Edmure fulfilled his orders as best as he knew how, in how he had no idea what Robb was planning in regards to the efforts of attempting to trap Tywin.

obviously not if he failed to obey a simple order. edmure was trying to prove something to robb and his bannerman bc robb took all the glory from capturing jaime and relieving riverun of the siege.

[Minsc]

obviously not if he failed to obey a simple order. edmure was trying to prove something to robb and his bannerman bc robb took all the glory from capturing jaime and relieving riverun of the siege.

Nope, Edmure completely fulfilled his order as best as Robb gave it to him. Simply, by driving off Tywin and Gregor at the Battle of the Fords he was able to insure the safety/hold of Riverrun. It was Robb's fault for not giving Edmure the complete situation thus he had no idea Robb was setting up a trap.

[Eric_20]

Now Edmure was kept alive for a reason, probably has a bargaining ship or political prisoner.

it was Robb who betrayed him

[Ramsay Gimp]

obviously not if he failed to obey a simple order. edmure was trying to prove something to robb and his bannerman bc robb took all the glory from capturing jaime and relieving riverun of the siege.

Robb fucked up by not sharing the plan with Edmure. And Edmure held Riverrun

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

Robb fucked up by not sharing the plan with Edmure. And Edmure held Riverrun

robb couldn't share his plan bc he was still in the westerlands and he wasn't going to send a raven or a rider bc that is too risky. edmure holding riverrun means staying and holding riverrun not going out and protecting a worthless stone mill. i know he's trying to protect his people and trying to make up for letting riverrun get besieged where he got captured but orders are orders and edmure fucked up bottom line.

[Ramsay Gimp]

robb couldn't share his plan bc he was still in the westerlands and he wasn't going to send a raven or a rider bc that is too risky. edmure holding riverrun means staying and holding riverrun not going out and protecting a worthless stone mill. i know he's trying to protect his people and trying to make up for letting riverrun get besieged where he got captured but orders are orders and edmure fucked up bottom line.

You're wrong. No one but Robb and Blackfish think Edmure disobeyed orders. Everyone else thought he did a great job

[sheofseidhr]

The Red Wedding is shocking at first for everyone, but please continue reading.....there is so much more important plots happening in these books than what is written in bold and deemed titles like the "Red Wedding"......it's in the songs, whispers and stories where the good stuff is hidden.....the slight actions and schemes and poems....minor characters move to major......truly a Game of Thrones.........IT GETS SO MUCH BETTER.....by the time you're waiting for the Winds of Winters like the rest of us, Robb will be a memory....or more...a piece of a puzzle.

I actually just finished reading this infamous chapter half an hour ago and now the lower half of my body is numb. I absolutely wept for Smalljon. But will definitely keep reading when the shock subsides.

[silentwanderer]

Now Edmure was kept alive for a reason, probably has a bargaining ship or political prisoner.

it was Robb who betrayed him

I would say Walder Frey betrayed them both: Robb with a false sense of security and Edmure with a bribe to steal Riverrun through an heir of Frey blood.

[Greymoon]

I was sad...for a bit.

I've never really liked Robb, because he fits the persona of the romantic hero a bit too much. If I wanted to read a story where the good guys are really all good, and handsome and young and brilliant...I wouldn't be ready Martin. It's a matter of personal opinion.

It's one of the reason I like (notice, the emphasis on LIKE, it's an opinion, not a science ) to think that Jeyne is not pregnant. I also like to think that Robb didn't want to marry a Frey (even before meeting Jeyne, I think there are hints for this in Catelyn's pov.) because like Edmure, he believed all Frey girls to be as ugly as old Walder. Which is rather sexist and childish and all that...and really funny, when pretty Roslin is introduced to us.

I've read here that people see Robb as his father's son. Maybe it is so, but I've always perceived Robb to be more of a Tully. Less foolish than Edmure and with a sharper edge...But only because he was forced into a role that makes him grow up a bit quicker.

Robb was friends with Theon, very good friends by the look of things, which makes me think that he wasn't quite as 'innocent' as he's being portrayed. And don't forget, we look at him through Catelyn's eyes, mostly.

Robb does have Ned’s naivety and unwavering belief in the good of people, BUT-

Ned wouldn't have married Jeyne, he'd rather have dishonored himself and his future wife, the way he does when he claims to have fathered Jon. There's the whole back story of Ashara Dayne...of course we don't know exactly what happened but it is suggested that Ned might have loved someone else. Ned has a very high sense of duty. He wasn't that much older than Robb when he married Catelyn in order to win a war.

Actually, Ned and Robb's experiences are very similar. Both ride to war to avenge their father (and brother), and free their sister(s), from the grasp of a powerful enemy in Kingslanding. But where Ned makes no claim for himself even though it was believed he'd take the Iron throne; Robb does not refuse the crown given him.

And that, for me, is one big mistake. The Lannister wronged him, yes, Joeffrey has to go...Rebellion and revenge I understand. But to claim the crown of the North? To declare an independence that hasn't existed in over 200 years? That, he can't really justify and though it's true that his bannermen forced his hand, ultimately, he had no claim on a crown, and should have bend the knee to Stannis.

Anyway, my point: Ned married out of duty, not out of love. Robb did forsake his own duty to Walder Frey, and ultimately, to the lords and men sworn to him.

He is also only 15, so you can't really fault him for that, especially as he much more grown up than Renly and his knights of summer ;) ...but all in all, he's still just a boy playing at war. And yes, he's sweet but, I didn't feel like I knew him enough to really feel sad. I felt sad for Catelyn, because I imagined it must be horrible to witness that.

[Kevin VanNatter]

Robb doesn't ever get a POV, but that made him all the more interesting to me. It seemed like he was the one really fighting the "bad guys" and taking it to them

The dynamic with the lack of a Robb POV is pretty effective. He gets to play the role of the brave warrior off winning noble battles, which we see through the rose colored glasses. Everyone is talking about the success of the King in the North. He's basically become a legend but then we get to observe the deterioration of the North through characters like Arya. We get hints that things aren't right and when Robb kills Lord Karstark, it is pretty clear Robb has lost the North. But what I like most about the handling of showing how Robb has lost the north is through the other POVs-- like Arya coming across the havoc the "Wolves" have wrecked when she visits the Stoney Sept. For Arya, she's heard things her mother may have done (fucked and released the Kingslayer after a threeway with Brienne) and things the North have done-- but we know that what she's really seeing is that the North has adopted the qualities of the Lord of the Dreadfort. It isn't so much that Robb's men are evil, but the northerners are. Her exposure to that is, more than anything else, what really gives the reader the sense that Robb is not in control and that his actions related to Jeyne Westerling are going to have widespread consequences not only for his own life, but for how we perceive the North. The Northerners were the good guys and now they're not so heroic.

[Kevin VanNatter]

Ned wouldn't have married Jeyne, he'd rather have dishonored himself and his future wife, the way he does when he claims to have fathered Jon. There's the whole back story of Ashara Dayne...of course we don't know exactly what happened but it is suggested that Ned might have loved someone else.

I think the tragedy of the Starks is that they all had this idea of Ned in there head that might not be true. Ned certainly never talks about his infidelity. We never really see that Robb justifies his decision to marry Jeyne based on Ned's own history but it must play into it and we KNOW that Jon constantly has Ned's shame in his head when trying to figure out his feelings for Ygritte. So, I think the tragedy is that Ned wasn't really the man they thought he was. They're all trying to justify what they do based on who they THOUGHT their father was, but none of us really know the truth about Ned's infidelity. The thing Robb overlooked when he rushed to do the "honorable" thing is that although Ned was honorable, his decision to raise Jon Snow as one of his own natural born sons actually shows Ned was inclined to choose blood over honor. Robb really never looked to protect his own blood once. He chose Jamie over Sansa and Arya. He trusted Theon which led to the alleged demise of Bran and Rickon.

[Erkan12]

Actually, Ned and Robb's experiences are very similar. Both ride to war to avenge their father (and brother), and free their sister(s), from the grasp of a powerful enemy in Kingslanding. But where Ned makes no claim for himself even though it was believed he'd take the Iron throne; Robb does not refuse the crown given him.

Nobody declare Ned as a king. So we can't know what he would do. It was really risky situation since Umbers, Karstarks and Mormonts declare him as KitN and from riverlords Darry, Piper, Bracken, Blackwood, Mallister all these house said they never called king a lannister, after reject of crown they could abandon him if Robb didn't accept the crown.

For marrying Jeyne, Ned would do the same. Difference is Ned was already married, Robb was not.

[Kevin VanNatter]

Yeah, Ned rode to war for Robert. It was Robert's Rebellion and it had more to do with friendship and honor than vengeance. Robb already knew what he had to do...he had to save Ned and his sisters...the only way he could do that was to lead a war, and the only way to lead a war is to unite the North under a king.

[Greymoon]

Nobody declare Ned as a king. So we can't know what he would do. It was really risky situation since Umbers, Karstarks and Mormonts declare him as KitN and from riverlords Darry, Piper, Bracken, Blackwood, Mallister all these house said they never called king a lannister, after reject of crown they could abandon him if Robb didn't accept the crown.

For marrying Jeyne, Ned would do the same. Difference is Ned was already married, Robb was not.

Yeah, Ned rode to war for Robert. It was Robert's Rebellion and it had more to do with friendship and honor than vengeance. Robb already knew what he had to do...he had to save Ned and his sisters...the only way he could do that was to lead a war, and the only way to lead a war is to unite the North under a king.

Yes, okay Robert's Rebellion, but Ned had much more reasons to rebel than Robert. And I do seem to recall that someone Cersei? or Jaime? believed that Ned would take the crown for himself.

Maybe I'm just confused because of the TV show, but anyhow. I don’t have the first two books right now, so I can’t really check the facts, but that’s how I remember it. And who is to say that Robert becoming King was a unanimous decision?Doesn't Robert himself claim he should never have accepted that stupid crown? And that he and Ned were meant to rule together?

Considering the harm that was done to the Starks, Ned becoming King would even have been legitimate in some ways. So, yeah Robert does have the better claim through his Targ blood, and he had the charisma, but by the right of conquest, either one of the two could have ended up King, IMO. Further, Ned was not already married when he and Ashara met, if they were involved at all. Catelyn thinks that he knew Ashara from Harrenhall and fell in love with her then.

Also, Brandon was promised not Ned, so, if it came down to it, Ned might even have been able to refuse a marriage to Catelyn without tarnishing his honor. But he didn't. He married out of duty because it was necessary. For me, Ashara is Ned's Jeyne and Catelyn is his Roslin Frey. One can dispute the fact that Ned and Ashara were involved, but his own reaction to the mention of Ashara Dayne, let's us think that he was infatuated with her, at the very least.

[silentwanderer]

I was sad...for a bit.

I didn't feel it was sad as much as shocking, I was so distracted by Edmure's naive approach to his pretty bride I actually thought the wedding was endearing until all hell broke loose. In hindsight, I should have seen it coming: the Westerling were Lannister bannermen, Robb's men were mad about his wedding, Walder Frey was the father to one of the girls he dismissed, etc.

It made sense, it was the logical move, it was the only natural outcome yet I didn't see it coming until every character was dead.

[Lady Acorns]

I think the RW is the only book occurrence that has caused me to wail out loud! But after shutting the book and hyperventilating for a while, open it again, mind racing and enjoy the rest of the amazingness.

[silentwanderer]

Whenever I reach something like Edmure's wedding,Theon's betrayal or Ned's execution I just have to go back to read every clue and try to understand why did I miss it.