Littlefinger's Downfall

[Kyoti]

I do not remember the "knowledge is power" interaction with Cersie that you are referencing.

Also he is not a "nobody of low birth" he was actually born a Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and was fostered at Riverrun as a ward of the Tullys which was probably one of the most prestiges places to be fostered at.

As for him being careful he has managed to nearly destroy Westeroes with his plans and has secured for himself the ownership of Harrenhall and the Titles of Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and Lord Protector of the Vale and nobody except for maybe Varys and Tyrion have a clue that he was involved in all the bad things that happened . Even Cersie still thinks of him as a friend and wants him to come back as Master of Coin and that says a lot because she's as paranoid as they come.

I might be mixing my Book LF with my Show LF. Regardless it is a minor point.

And, ok, maybe "nobody and of low birth" was a bit of a stretch, but he was about as important in terms of Lords as Hot Pie was in terms of commoners.

All of that other stuff you mentioned is just titles. He has lords and men that are obligated to follow him because of the piece of paper Cersei gave him, but Cersei herself shows time and again what a piece of paper is worth.

So despite a few nit picky type things my point still stands.

[Kienn]

He and Varys will have a get-together where they each poison the other and die.

[Kyoti]

Is Varys similarly powerless?

No. Like it or not Varys does have friends that are truly loyal to him. If nothing else he has his little birds. Also, Varys knows his station, he's not out trying to screw everyone for everything he can get. He has no aspirations for real power, and that in and of itself is a powerful position to be in because he risks nothing in his little plots and schemes. Littlefinger is all in on every bet he makes, he hedges them here and there, but it's still a house of cards.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

No. Like it or not Varys does have friends that are truly loyal to him. If nothing else he has his little birds. Also, Varys knows his station, he's not out trying to screw everyone for everything he can get. He has no aspirations for real power, and that in and of itself is a powerful position to be in because he risks nothing in his little plots and schemes. Littlefinger is all in on every bet he makes, he hedges them here and there, but it's still a house of cards.

He has a friend. Singular. The Great One has the same (friends is stretching it, but they're loyal). The only difference is that we haven't seen most of his.

You have no idea what Varys really wants, how in control he is (not very if we consider Jon Con's first ADWD chapter) and to claim he risks nothing is laughable. Much like The Great One. They both hold power, to claim otherwise is just inaccurate.

[Faint]

I see Littlefinger as an odd character now, having been so diminished by what went on in A Dance with Dragons. Whether he is brought down by Sansa or not seems to be a minor issue when you consider how he has been rendered somewhat irrelevant by Varys.

[Blackfish Tully]

I see Littlefinger as an odd character now, having been so diminished by what went on in A Dance with Dragons. Whether he is brought down by Sansa or not seems to be a minor issue when you consider how he has been rendered somewhat irrelevant by Varys.

what happened in ADWD that diminished Littlefinger? I do not remember anything in ADWD that Varys did that had anything to do with Littlefinger.

[Faint]

what happened in ADWD that diminished Littlefinger? I do not remember anything in ADWD that Varys did that had anything to do with Littlefinger.

Not anything in particular as to Varys acting against Littlefinger specifically, I was speaking more in a general sense by what bringing the Targaryens into the picture will end up doing to whatever plans Littlefinger might have had. The same applies to the North, where the discovery of Rickon, 'Arya,' and possibly Robb's will means that Sansa is not altogether that important anymore. In that sense, Littlefinger's machinations have been restricted to what he can do in the Vale. All the other powers have moved on to bigger things.

[Joyful Union]

His downfall will be dying of a heart-attack at the age of 86, while sitting on the Iron Throne

[Raksha the Demon]

He and Varys will have a get-together where they each poison the other and die.

Nah; LF and Varys will partner to run a seedy brothel in Braavos after they're both run out of Westeros. :cool4:

[Blackfish Tully]

I might be mixing my Book LF with my Show LF. Regardless it is a minor point.

And, ok, maybe "nobody and of low birth" was a bit of a stretch, but he was about as important in terms of Lords as Hot Pie was in terms of commoners.

All of that other stuff you mentioned is just titles. He has lords and men that are obligated to follow him because of the piece of paper Cersei gave him, but Cersei herself shows time and again what a piece of paper is worth.

So despite a few nit picky type things my point still stands.

Actually these are not minor points. You based your argument that Littlefinger was not careful on a scene that never happened in the books and you call him a nobody of low birth when clearly he was not . Then you dismiss his titles as being worthless when they clearly are not. He is the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and the Ruler of Harrenhall and all it's lands and the Lord Protector of the Vale. Lysa Tully made him Lord Protector of the Vale and his other titles were awarded to him by the King and sure he could be stripped of those titles in the future but if the Lannisters start stripping people of their titles for no reason then they will have a hard time getting anybody to trust them in the future.

[Blackfish Tully]

Not anything in particular as to Varys acting against Littlefinger specifically, I was speaking more in a general sense by what bringing the Targaryens into the picture will end up doing to whatever plans Littlefinger might have had. The same applies to the North, where the discovery of Rickon, 'Arya,' and possibly Robb's will means that Sansa is not altogether that important anymore. In that sense, Littlefinger's machinations have been restricted to what he can do in the Vale. All the other powers have moved on to bigger things.

Actually the Targaryens may be the best thing to happen for Littlefinger. More then likely Aegon and/or Dany is going to win the south and Stannis will probably win in the North so if Littlefinger can secure the Vale and the Riverlands and garrision Harrenhall he will be in a powerful position to ally himself with either side and maybe be a deciding force for who will win the Iron Throne.

Sansa is still important no matter what happens with Rickon and Robb's will . She is Jon and Rickons oldest sister so whoever is Lord of Winterfell she will have influence with them and she is an heir to Riverrun and is married to Tyrion which gives her a claim of Casterly Rock.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Littlefinger has influenced so much in this series:

1.) He lied to Catelyn about the dagger used to try to kill Bran Stark being Tyrion's. This led to both Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion on the Kings Road, and Jaime Lannister attacking Ned Stark and his men, and then fleeing Kings Landing to mass a force at Casterly Rock. Ned's honor forced him to take responsibility for Catelyn's actions, and this led to further tension between the Starks and the Lannisters.

2.) He played Ned the whole time he was in Kings Landing. He played with him so much that he even told Ned not trusting him was the wisest thing he had done since coming to King's Landing, and Ned brushed the comment off believing that Littlefinger genuinly wanted to help him. (After this scene, Eddard deserved what he got for still trusting Littlefinger) When the time came for Ned to make swift moves and preserve the throne for a true heir, he trusted Littlefinger to bring the Gold Cloaks in and brushed off Renly Baratheon's warnings about waiting. Littlefinger even told him that making sure Joffrey succeeds would be in his best interest, and he still trusted Littlefinger to bring in the Gold Cloaks and take the Lannisters into custody.

3.) After Renly's death during the War of the Five Kings, he brings the Tyrell's into the fold and sets up the betrothal of Margeary Tyrell and Joffrey Lanniser (I mean Baratheon). This alliance leads to the smashing of Stannis' host at the Blackwater, and it preserved Joffrey's throne. Tyrion played a big part in winning this battle, but Littlefinger is the one who recieved the credit from Tyrion's father Tywin for allying the Lannisters and Tyrells.

4.) Up until that point, I had always thought that Littlefinger's loyalty lied with the Lannisters. However, during Joffrey and Margeary's Wedding, he has Joffrey poisoned and the King dies. He does this in such a fashion that everybody believes he is out of the city on his way to the Vale when the wedding is taking place. Again, the blame is placed on Tyrion for a crime that he did not commit. Littlefinger also manages to have Sansa smuggled from the Red Keep and brought to his ship on the water.

5.) When Littlefinger is at the Vale, we find out from Lysa Tully that Jon Arryn's death, and her letter to Catelyn about the Lannisters, was all his idea. Later on, Littlefinger confesses to Lysa that he only loved Cat, and he throws her out of the moon door.

6.) Later on at the Vale, Littlefinger explains to Sansa that he plans to marry her to Harry the Heir, who is Lord Robert Arryn's heir should he die.

These instances described above are just some of the many things that Littlefinger has done through A Song of Ice and Fire. At first I thought he was working for the Lannisters. Anybody reading his confrontations with Ned in Kings Landing can tell he is playing with him the whole time. However, I had my doubts because of how he blamed Tyrion for the dagger. Then I was sure he was working for the Lannister's when they captured Ned and killed his men in the throne room.

His loyalty to the Lannisters seemed pretty strong to me, right up until Joffrey was poisoned to death and we found out Littlefinger was behind it. Then when he helped Sansa escape with him and brought her to the Vale, I thought in my head that all he wanted was Catelyn the whole time. Now that Catelyn was dead, Sansa was the next closest thing to her. Why else bring her to the Vale when you are about to marry Lysa Tully?

After they are in the Vale, things took a dramatic turn and I was caught so off guard when I found out Littlefinger had Lysa poison Jon Arryn and write the letter to the Starks blaming the Lannisters. Now I feel that the Littlefinger isn't out for anybody but himself. Especially after he told Lysa he only loved Cat.

Everything above is what I have been thinking about when trying to figure out what Littlefinger's demise will be. I think that it will be Sansa, since he has kind of an upsession with her, and that could lead to a fatal mistake for him should she, "Decide to play the Game of Thrones". However, it would be great if Tyrion returned to the Vale and got his retribution. I think Sansa is more likely, but Tyrion would be so much more interesting. Him and Littlefinger have had great parts in the story and they are two of the smartest characters we have been introduced to.

How does everybody else think Littlefinger will meet his demise, if he even does LOL?

Everyone is expecting Sansa to be his end...but I dont see it, nor do I hope for it. Littlefinger is a devious, scheming character who I find to be entertaining, and it would be too funny if George kept him around until the end.

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

Hope Littlefinger makes it to the end. One of the most interesting characters in the series and i think it would be great if he "won" in the end.

[Kyoti]

Actually these are not minor points. You based your argument that Littlefinger was not careful on a scene that never happened in the books and you call him a nobody of low birth when clearly he was not . Then you dismiss his titles as being worthless when they clearly are not. He is the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and the Ruler of Harrenhall and all it's lands and the Lord Protector of the Vale. Lysa Tully made him Lord Protector of the Vale and his other titles were awarded to him by the King and sure he could be stripped of those titles in the future but if the Lannisters start stripping people of their titles for no reason then they will have a hard time getting anybody to trust them in the future.

Actually the point I made it that his titles are meaningless because he has no love, no fear, and no respect. As soon as someone, anyone, realizes that killing Littlefinger will have exactly zero consequences someone will in fact kill him. Those other things don't change that fact. He is a fun character, but not one that has any staying power. He's gotten very far by lying, cheating, stealing, and murdering, but in the end he will die unmourned and unavenged.

[Faint]

Actually the Targaryens may be the best thing to happen for Littlefinger. More then likely Aegon and/or Dany is going to win the south and Stannis will probably win in the North so if Littlefinger can secure the Vale and the Riverlands and garrision Harrenhall he will be in a powerful position to ally himself with either side and maybe be a deciding force for who will win the Iron Throne.

Sansa is still important no matter what happens with Rickon and Robb's will . She is Jon and Rickons oldest sister so whoever is Lord of Winterfell she will have influence with them and she is an heir to Riverrun and is married to Tyrion which gives her a claim of Casterly Rock.

The problem with that interpretation is that Varys will not want to deal with Littlefinger. At the same, while the latter might have found it easy to manipulate the likes of Mace Tyrell, Cersei Lannister, Tywin Lannister, Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, and so on, it will not be as easy to do the same with Aegon, Daenerys or even Jon and/or Stannis, for that matter. One has Varys and Illyrio backing him, the other possibly has Tyrion and Moqorro, and even Stannis, and possibly Jon, has Melisandre. He simply has no foothold with these people. As it is, he is having a hard time securing the Vale, he will have to get to Harry the Heir to do that (and consider that he is also on somewhat of a time clock, because if the Lannisters fall, so do all his titles).

[Blackfish Tully]

Actually the point I made it that his titles are meaningless because he has no love, no fear, and no respect. As soon as someone, anyone, realizes that killing Littlefinger will have exactly zero consequences someone will in fact kill him. Those other things don't change that fact. He is a fun character, but not one that has any staying power. He's gotten very far by lying, cheating, stealing, and murdering, but in the end he will die unmourned and unavenged.

Your making a lot of assumptions in your post. How do you know that he has no fear or respect? we do not know what the Vale Lords or the Riverlords think of him because we have had very little information on their interactions and views of Littlefinger . Until it was revealed by Littlefinger we had no idea that he had Lyn Cordray on his side and that makes me wonder how many other characters does Littlefinger have as allies . We may find out that he has a vast spy network and a lot of Lords who are working to further his agenda whatever that may be.

[Kyoti]

He has a friend. Singular. The Great One has the same (friends is stretching it, but they're loyal). The only difference is that we haven't seen most of his.

You have no idea what Varys really wants, how in control he is (not very if we consider Jon Con's first ADWD chapter) and to claim he risks nothing is laughable. Much like The Great One. They both hold power, to claim otherwise is just inaccurate.

Who is Littlefinger's friend?

What is it Varys risks exactly? You just said no one knows his intentions, and no one but the reader has any clue about his plots. Even if someone were to uncover one of his plots, no one would know Varys was behind it. That and he has his stone bed and the hidden passages of the red Keep. What else does he have other than his own life at risk? LF could live his life in comfort and luxury if he just gave up his ambitions, but he bets all of that with every move he makes, sooner or later he is going to lose it all.

[the Scorpion Knight]

just picture Timmett son of Timmet feeding Littlefinger's manhood to a goat.

I think Sansa will bring him down but it won't be near as dramatic as anyone thinks it will be.

first of all it - by manhood the mountain clans mean beard and not dick

second I think sansawill begin( by warning lord hunter and the lords declarant) and end LF downfall by executing him

[Blackfish Tully]

The problem with that interpretation is that Varys will not want to deal with Littlefinger. At the same, while the latter might have found it easy to manipulate the likes of Mace Tyrell, Cersei Lannister, Tywin Lannister, Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, and so on, it will not be as easy to do the same with Aegon, Daenerys or even Jon and/or Stannis, for that matter. One has Varys and Illyrio backing him, the other possibly has Tyrion and Moqorro, and even Stannis, and possibly Jon, has Melisandre. He simply has no foothold with these people. As it is, he is having a hard time securing the Vale, he will have to get to Harry the Heir to do that (and consider that he is also on somewhat of a time clock, because if the Lannisters fall, so do all his titles).

If he has the Riverlands and the Vale secured and their armies following him then he will not have to manipulate anybody . Look at a map of Westeroes , the Riverlands and the Vale cut the kingdom in half and Harrenhall is right in the middle of it . If Stannis wants to move to the south or the Targarayens to the north they have to go through Littlefinger's lands. Whichever one who secures an alliance with Littlefinger would have a huge advantage over the other so they would be coming to him and offering nearly anything to secure the alliance.

I'm sure that people will mock the fact that Littlefinger would be able to secure the Vale and Riverlands and maybe they are right but if he is not working on doing just that then what is the point of anything he has done.

[Kyoti]

Your making a lot of assumptions in your post. How do you know that he has no fear or respect? we do not know what the Vale Lords or the Riverlords think of him because we have had very little information on their interactions and views of Littlefinger . Until it was revealed by Littlefinger we had no idea that he had Lyn Cordray on his side and that makes me wonder how many other characters does Littlefinger have as allies . We may find out that he has a vast spy network and a lot of Lords who are working to further his agenda whatever that may be.

I am making logical deductions based on the known facts. I will put it incredibly simply; If I killed Lord Petyr Baelish, Protector of the Vale, Lord of Herrenhall, Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, Master of Coin and King of Whores, what are the consequences? Who's coming after me? Think long and hard on that and then present me with a logical answer based on what is known.