Littlefinger's Downfall

[redviper9]

It's going to be Sansa, somehow. The maiden slaying the "savage giant" in the snow castle — it refers to Sansa and Baelish (whose actual family sigil is the Titan of Braavos) at either Winterfell or the Eyrie. The doll and the mini snow Winterfell were a feint.

Pretty much this. I've come to interpret that particular vision as Sansa bringing about Lord Pissant's demise, not tearing up Sweetrobin's doll. In much the same way, I think the headless stone giant from Bran's coma dream also refers to LF and not Robert Strong.

How is the North not tearing itself apart? half the lords are following Stannis and the other half are with the Boltons and they are about to have a massive battle so worrying about Littlefinger is the last thing on their list.

As for the Reach they are dealing with a lot more than a civil war , unless you don't count Aegon and the Golden Company invading and the Ironborn attacking them and the fact that Dorne has two armies on their borders waiting for orders to be anything to worry about.

Run a search on the Great Northern Conspiracy and enjoy the results.

I don't think Sansa has the guts to do it, if she does, she will be like her sister in that she will have no where to turn to after the deed is done, assuming she can suck it up and do it. She really won't get anything out of it, unless you count whats going to be taken if she does that in her current position, because everyone thinks she is just his bastard and will get nothing that was his.

I think this is a rather simplistic interpretation of Sansa's character and her arc. She's not the naive "little bird" we met in AGoT anymore, and she is not -- nor has she ever been -- motivated by a desire for material gain. Much like her other siblings, she's had some sharp lessons, and she may well put those lessons to good use in the final two books.

[redviper9]

<snip>

Brava!

[Trident full of Dogs]

What if LF plans to take the Vale, Winterfell and Casterly Rock using Sansa, is taht even possible? He could marry her off to Harry the heir then kill him; and kill Tyrion too so Sansa could inherit both the Vale and Casterly Rock as the widow of two heirs; and Winterfell is already hers LF thinks. Will LF try to kill Rickon to make sure Sansa is the heir? Or control him maybe. Of course LF means to marry Sansa after she inherirs the Vale.

So... maybe LF will end up as owner of half Westeros which makes him a target for anyone aspiring to the Iron Throne.

I foresee dragons as a possible death for LF...

[Dicer]

Just look at the way she handles the Lords of the Vale. They way she is able to calm and to a degree manipulate Sweetrobin

If I remember right, she was very scared to even speak to the lords of the vale. And then the rest of the time she just stood to the side and let LF handle the whole thing. I don't recall her being particularly shrewd or cunning in 'handling' the lords of the vale.

Same with SweetRobin. He's a sickly little boy. I don't think making him eat his food and do other things is indicative of Sansa's abilities to play the game of thrones. Compare her to Dany or Arya or any of the other kids. She is still way behind in smart strategy or manipulating the adults.

I am certain it's Sansa who takes down LF. Her chapters continue to bore me and I find her to be one of the most uninteresting characters in the book, but there has to be a point to her and I think that will be LF. Five books in and she remains the only Stark to not have accomplished anything and who continues to be a pawn.

So I do hope she continues learning some nice strategy and cunning from LF and then ultimately does him in. Yes, it would be extremely satisfying and give her character arc a nice conclusion.

[Ser Lepus]

What if LF plans to take the Vale, Winterfell and Casterly Rock using Sansa, is taht even possible? He could marry her off to Harry the heir then kill him; and kill Tyrion too so Sansa could inherit both the Vale and Casterly Rock as the widow of two heirs; and Winterfell is already hers LF thinks. Will LF try to kill Rickon to make sure Sansa is the heir? Or control him maybe. Of course LF means to marry Sansa after she inherirs the Vale.

So... maybe LF will end up as owner of half Westeros which makes him a target for anyone aspiring to the Iron Throne.

I foresee dragons as a possible death for LF...

Oh, he obviously plans to use Sansa and Harry the Heir to control the Vale, Riverlands and the North, and so long as he can manipulate Sansa and Harry everything will go peachy (unless @Tze is right about Lord Nestor, that is), but if Harry and/or Sansa rebel against him, or he goes too far and try to crown himself...then he's doomed.

About Casterly Rock, Sansa has no claim over it. If a lord dies without issue, his holdings go to his blood relatives, not to his widow (that's the reason Lady Hornwood had to make that arrangement with Bran in order to be allowed to remain the Lady of Hornwood while she lived, with the bastard son of her husband as heir).

[Fat of the Canals]

<snip>

Jesus, great post. Made me rethink everything.

[Maester Domeric]

I am making logical deductions based on the known facts. I will put it incredibly simply; If I killed Lord Petyr Baelish, Protector of the Vale, Lord of Herrenhall, Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, Master of Coin and King of Whores, what are the consequences? Who's coming after me? Think long and hard on that and then present me with a logical answer based on what is known.

yes you as the reader with all the accumulated knowledge of may different PoV's know that there wouldn't be consequences, but Lord X of Y probably doesn't have that same level of information as you. Whats that one thing Varys says to Tyrion, "power resides where people think it resides and a small man can cast a very long shadow" or something to the effect. That applies to Littlefinger just as much as to Tyrion.

What I don't get is all the Petyr Baelish hate. Yeah he isn't the most honorable but what worth is honor? The Starks had plenty and now they're dead so fat lot of good it them. Do people really think he trusts Sansa enough to show her his entire hand? I doubt it. He lets Sansa know just as much as he wants her too, just enough to empower her and win her trust. Since we only see him ever so briefly and also from limited POV I think its fair to say one shouldn't under estimate Petyr Baelish. Alot of people have and now most of them are dead.

As to the "littlefinger has no allies" bit he seems to be on good terms with Tyrell and Highgarden, him and The Queen of Thornes are cut from the same cloth. I feel like if he was backed into a corner he and Sansa could call upon them, as a measure of last resort.

Personally I'm rooting for him to be one of the last men standing. He's cunning, dangerous, and clearly head and shoulders above almost everyone else as far as politics and intrigue go. Petyr Baelish isn't bound by honor or duty or petty allegiances to Liege lords or any one realm. He pits the warring factions together and carves new ones according to his whims and his needs at the moment. What his grander scheme is, who can say but him?

[redviper9]

What if LF plans to take the Vale, Winterfell and Casterly Rock using Sansa, is taht even possible? He could marry her off to Harry the heir then kill him; and kill Tyrion too so Sansa could inherit both the Vale and Casterly Rock as the widow of two heirs; and Winterfell is already hers LF thinks. Will LF try to kill Rickon to make sure Sansa is the heir? Or control him maybe. Of course LF means to marry Sansa after she inherirs the Vale.

So... maybe LF will end up as owner of half Westeros which makes him a target for anyone aspiring to the Iron Throne.

I foresee dragons as a possible death for LF...

Sansa would have no claim to Casterly Rock because, since Tyrion is still presumed alive, her marriage to him would have to be set aside in order for Lord Pissant to set her up with Harry the Heir. Once the Tyrion-Sansa marriage is set aside, the Rock would revert to Cersei or one of her cousins. Of course, one must also keep in mind that Tyrion was never officially named Tywin's heir (and also the whole convicted kingslayer thing), so he technically has no claim to the Rock.

I think Ser Lepus is right in arguing that LF has his sights set on the Vale, the Riverlands, and the North, in part because those are the regions that "wronged" him (no respect from the Vale lords, denied Cat by Hoster Tully, had Cat "stolen" from him by the Starks), and also because they're the lowest hanging fruit. The Lannisters have certainly suffered some misfortunes of late, but they're still the richest family in the kingdoms, and there are enough cadet branches that an outsider taking the Westerlands doesn't seem likely.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What if LF plans to take the Vale, Winterfell and Casterly Rock using Sansa, is taht even possible? He could marry her off to Harry the heir then kill him; and kill Tyrion too so Sansa could inherit both the Vale and Casterly Rock as the widow of two heirs; and Winterfell is already hers LF thinks. Will LF try to kill Rickon to make sure Sansa is the heir? Or control him maybe. Of course LF means to marry Sansa after she inherirs the Vale.

So... maybe LF will end up as owner of half Westeros which makes him a target for anyone aspiring to the Iron Throne.

I foresee dragons as a possible death for LF...

Sansa has no claim to Casterly Rock in her own right. If Tyrion dies, she doesn't "get" it. There are some exceptions to this, like Lady Dustin still running Barrowton, but in general a widow doesn't inherit stuff from her husband like that. Same thing goes if she marries Harry and he dies, she doesn't "get" the Vale.

[Maester Domeric]

in response to the possible Nestor Royce betrayal hypothesis, i'ld say maybe. But in that case all he would have to do is reveal Sansa abit prematurely and assume the role of her benevolent protector. Being the husband of her late Aunt its only natural that with the rest of the Stark retainers dead or missing hes the closest thing to family that she has (given that Edmure is captive and the Blackfish on the lam) even if he is the creepy uncle. Given the right spin about how Sansa's harrowing escape from Kings Landing was orchestrated by him on account of his love for the Tully girl's, specifically Cat (kind of half true), reinforcing the terrible tragedy of both his wife's and Catelyn's death at the hands of treacherous minstrels and Frey's he could very easily garner some support if push came to shove. And who better to sell that tale then the master of spin Petyr Baelish. If anyone could do it he can. Do people think he doesn't have contingencies we never see cause he shares them with no one? Littlefinger may be many things, but stupid is not one of them.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

in response to the possible Nestor Royce betrayal hypothesis, i'ld say maybe. But in that case all he would have to do is reveal Sansa abit prematurely and assume the role of her benevolent protector. Being the husband of her late Aunt its only natural that with the rest of the Stark retainers dead or missing hes the closest thing to family that she has (given that Edmure is captive and the Blackfish on the lam) even if he is the creepy uncle. Given the right spin about how Sansa's harrowing escape from Kings Landing was orchestrated by him on account of his love for the Tully girl's, specifically Cat (kind of half true), reinforcing the terrible tragedy of both his wife's and Catelyn's death at the hands of treacherous minstrels and Frey's he could very easily garner some support if push came to shove. And who better to sell that tale then the master of spin Petyr Baelish. If anyone could do it he can. Do people think he doesn't have contingencies we never see cause he shares them with no one? Littlefinger may be many things, but stupid is not one of them.

He might not be inherently stupid, but I think at this point he's very much cocky and the latter can lead to the former.

[Southpaw89]

GRRM is all about surprises and what you think is going to happen isn't necessarily true so I don't think Sansa will kill LF even though I really wish she would. However, I could see a scenario play out where she gets him in a situation where he gets killed based on her manipulations that put him in a tight spot with some bad people. He has been playing the "game" through way of mind. He stands no chance when it comes to sword.

[Kyoti]

so your whole point is that how much power somebody has is purely based on if somebody would avenge them if you killed them. That seems to be a very arbitrary rule. There are a lot of characters that are not really well loved that hold tremendous power . How many people would try to avenge Varys if you killed him? maybe Illyrio but he would be the only one , Dany , Aegon, Joncon and the rest of his allies would not go out of their way to avenge Varys.

I actually asked two questions, and the first one was more important than the second. To repeat; what would the consequences be for killing LF?

[Bob the Fiddler]

Actually the point I made it that his titles are meaningless because he has no love, no fear, and no respect. As soon as someone, anyone, realizes that killing Littlefinger will have exactly zero consequences someone will in fact kill him. Those other things don't change that fact. He is a fun character, but not one that has any staying power. He's gotten very far by lying, cheating, stealing, and murdering, but in the end he will die unmourned and unavenged.

He also allows GRRM to have a bit of a deux ex machinima. Need Nedd Stark to die to cause the war? Have LF whisper to Joffrey. Need a whole reason for the drama between the Lannisters and Starks? Have LF tell Lysa to send the letter to Catelyn. Need to have poison smuggled in to kill Joffrey? Have LF do it. Need Sansa smuggled out of KL so that part of the Stark story can survive? Have LF do it.

The list can go on, and on. I like LF to because he does provide the chaos factor which is what makes these books so fun, but he also makes my suspension of disbelief muscles work overtime.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

GRRM is all about surprises and what you think is going to happen isn't necessarily true so I don't think Sansa will kill LF even though I really wish she would. However, I could see a scenario play out where she gets him in a situation where he gets killed based on her manipulations that put him in a tight spot with some bad people. He has been playing the "game" through way of mind. He stands no chance when it comes to sword.

1. Actually no, he's not. I love the guy's writing and his story, but I can't think of a single really big thing that wasn't foretold or hinted or suggested or alluded to beforehand, including both "Aegon's" appearance and the Red Wedding. A lot of people are shocked and surprised because they didn't pick up the clues, sure, but they were there.

2. If what you think will happen won't, doesn't that equally apply to your thinking that Sansa won't bring Littlefinger down?

[StarkDragon]

1. Actually no, he's not. I love the guy's writing and his story, but I can't think of a single really big thing that wasn't foretold or hinted or suggested or alluded to beforehand, including both "Aegon's" appearance and the Red Wedding. A lot of people are shocked and surprised because they didn't pick up the clues, sure, but they were there.

2. If what you think will happen won't, doesn't that equally apply to your thinking that Sansa won't bring Littlefinger down?

I heavily agree with point 1, as I think he makes that quite clear from his 'Aliens' interview.

[Bob the Fiddler]

I also think it's very possible that Littlefinger sits the Iron Throne at some point. He's been the most successful player of the GOT so far (has he had one plan that hasn't worked?), and I think that he may be one of the last high lords standing at a late point in the books. He obviously has NO claim whatsoever, but there's going to be a ton of casualties that could open the door for him in some way, and he's shown to thrive in these chaotic situations.

One Plan that did not work: Tyrion is alive, and Sansa is still married to him.

[Faint]

I sense that Harry the Heir is not mentioned enough in these discussions. It seems to me that he has quite the part to play in how matters transition from where we left off in A Feast for Crows. The other important consideration being ignored is that Martin went out of his way to inform us that Ser Shadrich is now in close proximity to Sansa. To me that is a signal that her identity is bound to get out.

[StarkDragon]

Marvelous words of insight

Wow. I've seen you post a few times, and every time I'm dazzled by the things I've completely missed.

Is there any way I can get notified any time you post? :drunk:

[Bob the Fiddler]

It seems to me that while Littlefinger's been laughing to himself about how successfully he's manipulated the Vale Lords, he might be in for a rather nasty surprise in TWOW. If Sansa decides to head to Jon at the Wall, going via Braavos would be the logical way to go about it (since it would look weird for a woman to seek passage straight to the Wall), and would actually have Sansa directly following in Arya's footsteps.

Holy Hell that was strong. Imagine if Tze was President . . . We'd be on Mars!