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SPOILERS! I don't know why anyone who doesn't want to be spoiled would be reading this topic...

It's just that this entire season the action at KL is going to be getting ready for Joffrey's wedding. There's no getting around that. It's why The Queen of Thornes is even there. He has no reason not to marry Margery immediately, aside from the prep-time, and her family's arrival. She's not a child like Sansa. Why would they postpone his wedding again? Makes no sense really.

Remember, Joffrey's Wedding will be the focal wedding for non-book readers. So to put that off for another year might be very weird. While the other two will be a surprise when they come, (nice dress, guess what?), the one at the Twins (the apologetic/arranged/planned one) isn't supposed to be a big deal.

Exactly. In fact, it will be weird to not have the wedding earlier on in the series since Margarey is already in King's Landing, but I'm sure they'll make a show of the great wedding... They don't need to introduce Oberyn Martell this season for them to have the PW. The PW is a grand lavish affair, I assume full of extras. The Martells can be in attendance without being cast with a quick reference from any of the major characters either before or after the events. This way D&D can hold off on castings such great actors until season 4.

I completely agree that the dialogue between the Red Viper and Tyrion can be pushed back until he is in the black cells. The PW is the most logical ending for the KL arc... For me, the inclusion of Lysa and Robin affirms this (but possibly wishful thinking as I feel I will watch the PW again and again) as it sets up Littlefinger's next moves. Otherwise, why not wait until S4 to bring them back.

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Like others have said, they should end s3 with Cat opening her eyes. Nothing more, nothing less. While her reveal at the end of ASOS works brilliantly in the book, on TV it can come off like a soap opera, if there's no other indication to her being revived. Also, if non-readers learn that Michelle Fairley is once again cast for Season 4, they might figure out that Cat's still alive.

I think you could get it to work for TV. Start off with the "wolf dream cam" pulling Cat out of the water and then hearing the BWB. The "wolf" runs away and turns around and watches Beric and Thoros arguing with each other. Beric then walks over and bends down to ressurect Cat. Before anything happens flash to Arya with a Bran like awakening. Have the Hound be like we can go find your mom and Arya respond no need shes dead. A couple of scenes later have 2 Freys riding to ransom their brother and meeting with the BWB and then do the quick interegation until one of the guys says were the involved? Pan to Lady Stoneheart.

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My opinion on why they are including Lysa and Robin this season is because they play a bigger role later on and we haven't seen them since the middle of Season 1. Most of the stuff that Littlefinger does with Lysa (by way of wooing) is explained in retrospect so there's room for the show (who can follow characters who aren't involved in book POV) to dramatize these events that are only referred to in passing on the show. Since LF is going to be getting out of King's Landing at some point this season, I'm sure they don't want him to disappear completely as he's a major character so it makes sense to show what he's up to (wooing Lysa in the Eyrie).

And while we're talking about "arcs" and how things "have" to be included in order for the season to work (not an opinion I share about the PW but that appears to be the sentiment from some here), it's funny that the same people want to ignore this argument when it comes to Beric and the BwB.

This is a group that will be introduced very early on in the season and play a big part in Arya's story for much of S3. Part of their appeal is in the story of how they came to be from what they originally were sent out to accomplish but more importantly, they are there to demonstrate what kind of supernatural ability has manifested itself when it comes to Thoros and Beric and the sudden ability for him to be resurrected. They talk about it and also have Arya witness (sort of) the newfound power in action. They make a point of showing what these multiple resurrections are doing to Beric's humanity (on top of his physical appearance). All of this is done to set up what will happen with Catelyn. The natural progression of the BwB and their introduction this season is for them to come upon Catelyn and utilize this power that has been clearly demonstrated to the audience to revive Catelyn. And if it's part of the story, it's organic and Cat's resurrection doesn't seem like a cheat since all of these possibilities have been laid out ahead of time.

Remember that in the books, Arya has her wolf dream where Nymeria drags Cat's body from the river and is chased away by the approaching BwB very shortly after the RW (like an episode's worth of time). So in terms of book timelines, this discovery should be occurring in E10 (especially since the resurrection needs to happen within a reasonable time period like a couple days from her death in order to be plausible). The only thing the book does is that it cuts off at that point and doesn't show us Beric giving the kiss of life with Thoros and subsequently dying. It is only recalled in flashback well after the fact. It really is a visual event that screams out to be shown on screen (the leader of the group sacrificing himself in order to revive a major character who had died). Maybe in the books you can get away with telling the story a season or two later as more of a "by the way, this is what happened..." offhand remark by Thoros but not on the show.

The arc of the BwB (with Beric as their leader) is set up perfectly this season to have him arrive to find Catelyn and revive using the well established power we've seen them use this year. Beric also dies doing this so it closes off his part of the story cleanly by showing his sacrifice. If you don't show this, then you have the audience wonder what the point of this group really is besides another pit stop group for Arya in her journey. And if we are to have the reveal to play out exactly as the books show in S4 with Lady Stoneheart, you'd essentially have the BwB disappear for a long period of time before they show up out of the blue, without Beric and with a zombie Cat as their leader. I'll grant you that's got plenty of shock value (which is what seems to be driving this argument I suppose). But is it "good" shock value or will it feel like a WTF moment that will require a massive explanation afterwards? We also are deprived of Beric's death in this scenario. I don't think this is dramatically a great way to structure this particular arc.

I also don't see why we can't get a lot of mileage out of holding off on the "UnCat" reveal of her until later in S4 after showing the Kiss of Life in the S3 finale. Zombie Cat is a completely different reveal which is shocking unto itself and if we've got the audience wondering for much of the season just what happened to her after seeing her eyes flash open in the S3 finale, I think it's a great way to build anticipation.

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Because it wouldn't really make any sense to wait for it until the end of season four, most of the people already forgot about her. Also, they need to keep Beric around for the Kiss of Life, something they can't leave off-screen. Besides that it's a good way to give people some hope.

I think they would do it through Arya's "dream" as Nymeria. Adding the additional story arch of Nymeria (Arya's Subconscious) is leading an army of wolves, through Westeros. Then finding Catelyn's washed up body.

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I really hope Lysa and Robert don't get a visit from teleportation Littlefinger in season 3. This would really spoil the fun. Lysa is not wooed by Littlefinger, she and Petyr conspired to murder Jon Arryn and intended to marry each other once Littlefinger had acquired a title in the coming chaos (yes, Petyr would have loved to marry Cat instead of Lysa, but Lysa doesn't know that). Any interaction between these two would ruin this, and I don't want them to ruin it.

If there are Lysa and Robert scenes, I do hope they have to with Robb and the Tullys. Robb could try to strike a deal with Lysa in the aftermath of Lord Hoster's death. If they play it right, they only have him turn back to the Freys after Lysa has refused to support her kin.

This development could in turn trigger Tywin to send Littlefinger to the Vale later on in the season, to convince the Arryns to rejoin the Iron Throne. I think the best time for this would be after Littlefinger tells Tywin about Olenna's plan to marry Sansa to Willas. Which would make Littlefinger absent for episodes 7/8-10. And then until the Purple Wedding takes place. Littlefinger being on that ship has to be a surprise.

And I do hope Aidan Gillen gets his well-deserved off screen time this season. Seeing him interact with Lysa would ruin everything for season 4. And I don't want Littlefinger to be present in King's Landing during the Purple Wedding, either. Make his involvement a surprise, at least for once. Him talking in person to Sansa is stupid already.

And they really kept Lysa out of this whole Petyr business as of yet. Why not make this a surprise for the very end of season 4? No thinks about Jon Arryn any longer. But people will remember when Lysa has her mad rant. Just as they will remember when Tyrion figures out who tried to kill Bran in his sleep.

Remembering us that the Arryns are still out there, and could rejoin the game, is not a bad thing per se. But it has to be done right. I really could see the Blackfish traveling to the Eyrie, trying to shake some sense into Lysa. Things have changed now. Lord Hoster is dead. The Starks and Tullys can't withstand the Lannister-Tyrell-alliance, and they should know that. If Lysa would join them, they would not only not need the Freys, but could also have a decent chance to continue the war.

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This cannot be done in a first episode, and certainly not in a last episode that has been preceded by the Red Wedding. It just doesn't make any sense. Why not let the Lannisters (i.e. Cersei, Tywin, and Joffrey) enjoy their triumph and glory. Vengeance will come for sure in season 4, it does not need to be rushed.

The RW will (likely) be in S3E9. They have the finale as well as the rest of S3 to build up the Tyrells and everything else in KL. The Lannisters did not get to enjoy their triumph in the book. There is only one chapter (in which Tywin reveals his culpability) taking place in KL between the RW and Joff's wedding day. This scene can be done in the finale. I will agree that most of the focus of S4E1 will have to be on the wedding/feast, but they can probably get away with having no Dany and little of everyone else (depending where they all end up at the end of S3).

The PW is not the focal point of season 4. It's the event which destroys the political landscape in KL:

Exactly. It is not the focal point if it occurs in E1. It just shakes everything up again at the start of the season as well as surprising unsuspecting viewers who only watch the show.

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Purple wedding this season just doesn't seem possible.

They have to introduce Oberyn and set up his relationship with Tyrion. They can't do that if Tyrion is already in the black cells.

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Love the episode titles!!

and i hope the titles are true to the story from the book.

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"Valar Dohaeris" aka "All Men Must Serve" is D&D's way of saying, "Hey, ya'll, we made a mistake. We, like all men, must serve the Old Gods (George). This season will be 100x more faithful than season two."

I was going to complain about the episode title, but your brilliance shut me up. I will now pretend that this is exactly what it stands for. Thank you, carry on.

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Well this pretty much confirms that the RW is ep 9 and they're ending on an uplifting note with Dany in Yunkai. Kind of cowardly, I think, but understandable. It would have been braver to end on the Red Wedding.

I don't see that as cowardly at all. Cowardly would be ending the season with the Purple Wedding, giving the viewers exactly what they want: revenge against the Lannisters. I will be incredibly disappointed if they try to shoehorn the PW into season three when it should clearly come several episodes in to season four (giving them time to introduce the Martells, particularly the Red Viper).

Can you really blame the showrunners for structuring each season the way they have? Seasons of Game of Thrones are structured a lot like the seasons of The Wire (which in turn were structured much like novels). Rising action builds up until the penultimate episode and the final episode is reserved for the fallout and wrapping things up in preparation for the next season. It's a good system for serialized television.

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My opinion on why they are including Lysa and Robin this season is because they play a bigger role later on and we haven't seen them since the middle of Season 1. Most of the stuff that Littlefinger does with Lysa (by way of wooing) is explained in retrospect so there's room for the show (who can follow characters who aren't involved in book POV) to dramatize these events that are only referred to in passing on the show. Since LF is going to be getting out of King's Landing at some point this season, I'm sure they don't want him to disappear completely as he's a major character so it makes sense to show what he's up to (wooing Lysa in the Eyrie).

And while we're talking about "arcs" and how things "have" to be included in order for the season to work (not an opinion I share about the PW but that appears to be the sentiment from some here), it's funny that the same people want to ignore this argument when it comes to Beric and the BwB.

This is a group that will be introduced very early on in the season and play a big part in Arya's story for much of S3. Part of their appeal is in the story of how they came to be from what they originally were sent out to accomplish but more importantly, they are there to demonstrate what kind of supernatural ability has manifested itself when it comes to Thoros and Beric and the sudden ability for him to be resurrected. They talk about it and also have Arya witness (sort of) the newfound power in action. They make a point of showing what these multiple resurrections are doing to Beric's humanity (on top of his physical appearance). All of this is done to set up what will happen with Catelyn. The natural progression of the BwB and their introduction this season is for them to come upon Catelyn and utilize this power that has been clearly demonstrated to the audience to revive Catelyn. And if it's part of the story, it's organic and Cat's resurrection doesn't seem like a cheat since all of these possibilities have been laid out ahead of time.

Remember that in the books, Arya has her wolf dream where Nymeria drags Cat's body from the river and is chased away by the approaching BwB very shortly after the RW (like an episode's worth of time). So in terms of book timelines, this discovery should be occurring in E10 (especially since the resurrection needs to happen within a reasonable time period like a couple days from her death in order to be plausible). The only thing the book does is that it cuts off at that point and doesn't show us Beric giving the kiss of life with Thoros and subsequently dying. It is only recalled in flashback well after the fact. It really is a visual event that screams out to be shown on screen (the leader of the group sacrificing himself in order to revive a major character who had died). Maybe in the books you can get away with telling the story a season or two later as more of a "by the way, this is what happened..." offhand remark by Thoros but not on the show.

The arc of the BwB (with Beric as their leader) is set up perfectly this season to have him arrive to find Catelyn and revive using the well established power we've seen them use this year. Beric also dies doing this so it closes off his part of the story cleanly by showing his sacrifice. If you don't show this, then you have the audience wonder what the point of this group really is besides another pit stop group for Arya in her journey. And if we are to have the reveal to play out exactly as the books show in S4 with Lady Stoneheart, you'd essentially have the BwB disappear for a long period of time before they show up out of the blue, without Beric and with a zombie Cat as their leader. I'll grant you that's got plenty of shock value (which is what seems to be driving this argument I suppose). But is it "good" shock value or will it feel like a WTF moment that will require a massive explanation afterwards? We also are deprived of Beric's death in this scenario. I don't think this is dramatically a great way to structure this particular arc.

I also don't see why we can't get a lot of mileage out of holding off on the "UnCat" reveal of her until later in S4 after showing the Kiss of Life in the S3 finale. Zombie Cat is a completely different reveal which is shocking unto itself and if we've got the audience wondering for much of the season just what happened to her after seeing her eyes flash open in the S3 finale, I think it's a great way to build anticipation.

Yes yes yes yes yes x ∞.

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While that would be awesome, what would they do with Tyrion for the whole of Season 4? He cant just be in jail for most of the season. It seems more likely that Joffrey will die at the beginning of the fourth season, episode 4 maybe.

That's way too late. If S4 doesn't open with the PW it will be a mistake. Keep in mind that there is also Jaime's story to take into account. He has nothing to do between rescuing Brienne from the bear (pretty much confirmed as episode 7.) and arriving at KL after the PW. You're suggesting 7 episodes were he does pretty much nothing?

Also there's only 7 chapters between the RW and the PW. So to suggest nearly that many episodes between the two is ridiculous. Sure, events can be rearranged and Oberyn has to arrive, but really there's not any material in KL in between these two events. The pre-wedding party can happen in S3 E10 with Tyrion figuring out that Joffrey sent someone to kill Bran. Then S4 E1 can cover Oberyn's arrival, the wedding, the feast and the murder.

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I think they would do it through Arya's "dream" as Nymeria. Adding the additional story arch of Nymeria (Arya's Subconscious) is leading an army of wolves, through Westeros. Then finding Catelyn's washed up body.

Ah yes, and then have Nymeria run off when Beric & co. come. I like it.

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That's way too late. If S4 doesn't open with the PW it will be a mistake. Keep in mind that there is also Jaime's story to take into account. He has nothing to do between rescuing Brienne from the bear (pretty much confirmed as episode 7.) and arriving at KL after the PW. You're suggesting 7 episodes were he does pretty much nothing?

Also there's only 7 chapters between the RW and the PW. So to suggest nearly that many episodes between the two is ridiculous. Sure, events can be rearranged and Oberyn has to arrive, but really there's not any material in KL in between these two events. The pre-wedding party can happen in S3 E10 with Tyrion figuring out that Joffrey sent someone to kill Bran. Then S4 E1 can cover Oberyn's arrival, the wedding, the feast and the murder.

I really don't agree with this.

When Oberyn arrives there is a lot of backstory to cover; especially regarding Tywin Lannister and his involvement in the murder of children (not that viewers will be surprised given the events in S3). The relationship between Oberyn and Tyrion needs to be established and the wedge needs to be further driven between Tyrion and his family. Then you have Oberyn and the Tyrells - which in itself will create tension.

I would also love to see a scene between Olenna and Tommen. The relationship between Sansa and Tyrion also needs to be developed. There is a lot of material to cover between the two weddings, in this iteration.

You can't have the PW in episode 1 because you need to reestablish all of your key players for the season. It is the introduction, I'd like the wedding to evolve organically and not be rushed.

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That's way too late. If S4 doesn't open with the PW it will be a mistake. Keep in mind that there is also Jaime's story to take into account. He has nothing to do between rescuing Brienne from the bear (pretty much confirmed as episode 7.) and arriving at KL after the PW. You're suggesting 7 episodes were he does pretty much nothing?

Also there's only 7 chapters between the RW and the PW. So to suggest nearly that many episodes between the two is ridiculous. Sure, events can be rearranged and Oberyn has to arrive, but really there's not any material in KL in between these two events. The pre-wedding party can happen in S3 E10 with Tyrion figuring out that Joffrey sent someone to kill Bran. Then S4 E1 can cover Oberyn's arrival, the wedding, the feast and the murder.

Episode 1 is not ideal. Plus anyway, there will likely be the introduction of Oberyn and Jon's battle at the Wall to deal with in the first episode.

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Episode 1 is not ideal. Plus anyway, there will likely be the introduction of Oberyn and Jon's battle at the Wall to deal with in the first episode.

I agree, they need to take advantage of the character and take a few episodes to establish him.

E01, E02, E03 - Oberyn's introduction.

E04 / E05 - PW.

E06, E07, E08 - Oberyn/Tyrion jail visits, trial and 'I'll be your champion.'

E09 - Oberyn vs. Gregor.

E10 - Tyrion's escape.

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I agree, they need to take advantage of the character and take a few episodes to establish him.

E01, E02, E03 - Oberyn's introduction.

E04 / E05 - PW.

E06, E07, E08 - Oberyn/Tyrion jail visits, trial and 'I'll be your champion.'

E09 - Oberyn vs. Gregor.

E10 - Tyrion's escape.

Actually, I disagree, lol :P

I'm not sure there's enough material to pad out those in-between episodes.

My plan would be (spoilers):

E01: Reintroduction, Oberyn

E02: Battle at the Wall, Ygritte dies, more Oberyn

E03: Purple Wedding

E04/E05/E06: Trial, jail visits, focus on other stories including Iron Islands

E07: Oberyn vs Gregor

E08: Tyrion's escape

E09: Reaction, Stannis wins the battle at the Wall

E10: Littlefinger and the Moon Door, more elements from AFFC/ADWD, Tyrion arrives in Pentos

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