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I'm so not ok with Oberyn only being in 7 episodes. :frown5:

I agree, I'm 90% sure they'll stretch his arc for at least 9 episodes. He's a fan favourite. They managed to put the Tyrion/Sansa wedding back to episode 8 (or maybe 7, due to the name change), without having a lot of KL material. I'm sure they could manage to put Oberyn's duel in episode 9.

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I agree, I'm 90% sure they'll stretch his arc for at least 9 episodes. He's a fan favourite. They managed to put the Tyrion/Sansa wedding back to episode 8 (or maybe 7, due to the name change), without having a lot of KL material. I'm sure they could manage to put Oberyn's duel in episode 9.

I prefer Oberyn's reign to be short and brilliant, like a flamethrower burning from both ends, or something. That's how the books did it, anyway.

If they put Oberyn's duel in 9, then they would have to put Tyrion's escape, the battle at the Wall, Littlefinger at the Eyrie all in episodes 9 and 10. Which sounds over-cramped. Unless if you'd prefer to change the ordering of events?

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Battle at the wall will have happened by ep 5 though right? Jon becoming LC is the last storyline there. And that, together with Oberyn's duel, tyrion's escape, littlefinger & Sansa at the Eyrie, wraping up in KL and Dany/Arya endings would all fit more than perfectly in two episodes, the last one being over an hour long.

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Oberyn having a 'Ned'-arc in Season 4 would work very well for the story. If his character was expanded and beloved by the audience, then it would make the introduction of the Martells and the reaction of Dorne generally would be much easier to comprehend.

The trial would only be one aspect of the 'big' episode, as it would surely include Tyrion's escape and the consequences of that. It would also round the season off nicely as Tyrion would board a boat, Varys would disappear and Cersei would assume power - all of these could occur in the final episode.

Littlefinger in the Eyrie could be moved around to suit whenever and the climax at the Wall is not the battle but Jon's election - a positive note to end the season akin to 'Mhysa'.

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I really don't agree with this.

When Oberyn arrives there is a lot of backstory to cover; especially regarding Tywin Lannister and his involvement in the murder of children (not that viewers will be surprised given the events in S3). The relationship between Oberyn and Tyrion needs to be established and the wedge needs to be further driven between Tyrion and his family. Then you have Oberyn and the Tyrells - which in itself will create tension.

I would also love to see a scene between Olenna and Tommen. The relationship between Sansa and Tyrion also needs to be developed. There is a lot of material to cover between the two weddings, in this iteration.

You can't have the PW in episode 1 because you need to reestablish all of your key players for the season. It is the introduction, I'd like the wedding to evolve organically and not be rushed.

The Dornish backstory can be covered before Oberyn actually arrives and once he does arrive we'll have at least a good several episodes to establish it all further before the duel. The relationship between Tyrion and Oberyn is not actually that important besides being a good source of witty banter. Oberyn does not champion Tyrion because they like each other, it's purely to serve his own ends.

The Tyrell/Martell enmity can also be established in S3 and in the episodes up until the trial.

At the most I can see the PW happening in episode 2, with one episode to reestablish everything before, though even that is not completely necessary imo. The audience is not stupid. I think that by that point we won't really need much in the way of reestablishing the characters and that starting the season with a bang will be much more appreciated.

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Ok, just quickly flicked through ASOS chapter orderings, as my memory wasn't quite right. My revised ordering is now:

E01: Reintroduction, Oberyn

E02: Battle at the Wall, Ygritte dies, more Oberyn

E03: Purple Wedding

E04/E05/E06: Trial, jail visits, focus on other stories including Iron Islands

E07: Oberyn vs Gregor

E08: Stannis wins the battle of the Wall

E09: Tyrion escapes

E10: Littlefinger and the Moon Door, Jon becomes LC, Tyrion arrives in Pentos

Stannis arriving at the Wall happens after Oberyn vs Gregor but before Tyrion escapes. I'd like to see them stay true to the books here as it worked damned well back then.

@mayorcarcetti: Ep 5 is way too early for Stannis's arrival

@protar: Agreed that Oberyn shouldn't be over emphasised but I think PW in episode 3 might be best.

@Loras: Not sure I see Oberyn as a Ned-like character. I never rooted for him, just found him entertaining. Of course I wanted him to beat Gregor, but who wouldn't against Gregor?

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I prefer Oberyn's reign to be short and brilliant, like a flamethrower burning from both ends, or something. That's how the books did it, anyway.

If they put Oberyn's duel in 9, then they would have to put Tyrion's escape, the battle at the Wall, Littlefinger at the Eyrie all in episodes 9 and 10. Which sounds over-cramped. Unless if you'd prefer to change the ordering of events?

Littlefinger goes to the Eyrie after episode 4 or 5, depending on the episode dedicated to the PW. I also think the Battle of the Wall happen before 9 or 10, since we need a few episodes for the Jon becoming LC-arc.

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The PW will probably be around episode 4. The battle at the Wall will probably be in episode 7 or 8. I think Tyrion should kill Tywin and escape in episode 9 so that episode 10 can have the first few scenes from Cersei's AFFC chapters. It could also end with Jaime sending Brienne off to find Sansa. I'd also like to see Jon become LC in episode 9 and then send Sam off with Aemon in episode 10.

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The PW will probably be around episode 4. The battle at the Wall will probably be in episode 7 or 8. I think Tyrion should kill Tywin and escape in episode 9 so that episode 10 can have the first few scenes from Cersei's AFFC chapters. It could also end with Jaime sending Brienne off to find Sansa. I'd also like to see Jon become LC in episode 9 and then send Sam off with Aemon in episode 10.

Tywin's funeral will be a good way to end the KL arc of season 4.

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Littlefinger goes to the Eyrie after episode 4 or 5, depending on the episode dedicated to the PW. I also think the Battle of the Wall happen before 9 or 10, since we need a few episodes for the Jon becoming LC-arc.

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean him going to the Eyrie. I meant his pushing Lysa out the Moon Door. Not too bothered when exactly he reaches the Eyrie tbh.

And yes, in my revised list I reckon Battle of the Wall should be Episode 8. That allows Jon to become Lord Commander in episode 10.

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I don't see that as cowardly at all. Cowardly would be ending the season with the Purple Wedding, giving the viewers exactly what they want: revenge against the Lannisters. I will be incredibly disappointed if they try to shoehorn the PW into season three when it should clearly come several episodes in to season four (giving them time to introduce the Martells, particularly the Red Viper).

:agree:

Actually, I disagree, lol :P

I'm not sure there's enough material to pad out those in-between episodes.

My plan would be (spoilers):

E01: Reintroduction, Oberyn

E02: Battle at the Wall, Ygritte dies, more Oberyn

E03: Purple Wedding

E04/E05/E06: Trial, jail visits, focus on other stories including Iron Islands

E07: Oberyn vs Gregor

E08: Tyrion's escape

E09: Reaction, Stannis wins the battle at the Wall

E10: Littlefinger and the Moon Door, more elements from AFFC/ADWD, Tyrion arrives in Pentos

Maybe Oberyn vs Gregor could be in E08, but I agree with the rest.

E09 should be focus on the Wall, something like Blackwater, a whole episode exclusive for that battle, D&D said that battle will be bigger than Blackwater, we should expect something epic. Stannis Stannis STANNIS! :commie:

ETA: just saw your revised list, yeah it makes sense, but usually THE event happens in E09, and I think Stannis saving the day is bigger than Tyrion/Tywin (and the escape)

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E09 should be focus on the Wall, something like Blackwater, a whole episode exclusive for that battle, D&D said that battle will be bigger than Blackwater, we should expect something epic. Stannis Stannis STANNIS! :commie:

Well if the budget gets bumped up a bit from season 2, and they will be able to spend most of the CGI Budget on it, we might just get to see an amazing battle for the wall, with mammoths, giants and thousands of wildlings. I'm hoping for a "Pelennor" type deal.

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If they would not put the Purple Wedding in episodes 4-5 of season 4, they would have no need to introduce Oberyn Martell at all. If Tyrion would be imprisoned in the very beginning of season 4, we would not have the time to bond with or care about the Red Viper. It would be much more efficient to have Gregor fight and kill Bronn instead of Oberyn.

Bronn becomes irrelevant as a character after ASoS, actually already in ASoS. GRRM likes him, that's why kept him alive. But the show could kill him easily enough. They are good at tying up loose ends, after all.

Oberyn is also the least important Martell character. Doran, Arianne, and Quentyn are much more important. And any of them could introduce us to the Elia plot.

But since I don't believe they are going to put the Purple Wedding in the very beginning of season 4, what I just said is not going to happen. But if they would do it, then there would be no need for Oberyn or a Tyrion-Oberyn-plot in season 4.

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If they would not put the Purple Wedding in episodes 4-5 of season 4, they would have no need to introduce Oberyn Martell at all. If Tyrion would be imprisoned in the very beginning of season 4, we would not have the time to bond with or care about the Red Viper. It would be much more efficient to have Gregor fight and kill Bronn instead of Oberyn.

Bronn becomes irrelevant as a character after ASoS, actually already in ASoS. GRRM likes him, that's why kept him alive. But the show could kill him easily enough. They are good at tying up loose ends, after all.

Oberyn is also the least important Martell character. Doran, Arianne, and Quentyn are much more important. And any of them could introduce us to the Elia plot.

But since I don't believe they are going to put the Purple Wedding in the very beginning of season 4, what I just said is not going to happen. But if they would do it, then there would be no need for Oberyn or a Tyrion-Oberyn-plot in season 4.

There is plenty of time for Tyrion to bond with Oberyn after he his imprisoned though. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise seeing as almost all their interactions in the books are after Tyrion's imprisonment. I would be very interested to see a projection for a S4 in which the PW doesn't happen until E4 or 5. Quite frankly I don't think it would be possible to make compelling TV with that in KL and Jaime would disappear for the whole first half of the season for no logical reason.

If the PW is any later than S4 E2 I will eat my hat. I would bet large amounts of money against it.

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There is plenty of time for Tyrion to bond with Oberyn after he his imprisoned though. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise seeing as almost all their interactions in the books are after Tyrion's imprisonment. I would be very interested to see a projection for a S4 in which the PW doesn't happen until E4 or 5. Quite frankly I don't think it would be possible to make compelling TV with that in KL and Jaime would disappear for the whole first half of the season for no logical reason.

If the PW is any later than S4 E2 I will eat my hat. I would bet large amounts of money against it.

This is what happens when you are a book purist and won't look beyond the books to build the structure of the TV show.

The action in the first section of Season 4 could be focused on the Jon Snow storyline at the Wall. There is a lot going on there at the beginning of the fourth season. There would be plenty of intrigue in King's Landing with Oberyn's arrival to bolster that storyline.

To have the PW so early in the season would be detrimental to the pace of the season, it would create a molasses like effect for the King's Landing storyline and cause the casual viewer to stop caring. You couldn't have Tyrion imprisoned for 8 episodes.

Don't forget the invented scenes which would surely be involved here. In fact it would be very easy to come up with three episodes worth of story prior to the PW in Episode 4.

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This is what happens when you are a book purist and won't look beyond the books to build the structure of the TV show.

The action in the first section of Season 4 could be focused on the Jon Snow storyline at the Wall. There is a lot going on there at the beginning of the fourth season. There would be plenty of intrigue in King's Landing with Oberyn's arrival to bolster that storyline.

To have the PW so early in the season would be detrimental to the pace of the season, it would create a molasses like effect for the King's Landing storyline and cause the casual viewer to stop caring. You couldn't have Tyrion imprisoned for 8 episodes.

Don't forget the invented scenes which would surely be involved here. In fact it would be very easy to come up with three episodes worth of story prior to the PW in Episode 4.

It would be possible sure, but I just don't think it's necessary. Tyrion is not full on imprisoned for most of the season, he's still allowed to interact with people and scheme, so it's not like I'm proposing he's just rotting in a cell for half the season. And aside from Tyrion's imprisonment there's plenty of other KL material in S4: Jaime's reunion and subsequent fallout with Cersei, the Tyrell/Martell rivalry. And most importantly, it would be starting the season with a bang. At this point the audience is going to be familiar enough with the plot that we don't need this whole settling in section nearly as much. A firecracker start to the season would be much more appreciated. So to be generous let's say the PW happens in E2, which I guarantee you will be the latest it's in. Here's how it could then go:

  • E1: Oberyn's arrival, The wedding gifts and Tyrion coming to the conclusion that Joffrey sent the assassin after Bran.
  • E2: The PW.
  • E3: Sansa escapes and meets LF. Jaime and Brienne arrive in KL. Gross blasphemous incestuous menstrual sex next to a corpse. Tyrion confined and asked to come up with witnesses. Oberyn comes to see him.
  • E4: Tyrion's first trial. Jaime argues with Tywin
  • E5: Jaime sends Brienne on her quest (yes it's a little early.). Bronn refuses to champion Tyrion but Oberyn agrees.
  • E6: Jaime falls out with Cersei. Tyrion's final trial with Shae's testimony.
  • E7: Trial by combat.
  • E8: It's been indicated that the Battle at the Wall will be given the Blackwater treatment so it seems like we're getting at least one episode out from KL. I think it'll be here.
  • E9: Tyrion imprisoned, freed by Jaime, kills Shae and Tywin.
  • E10: Meets Illyrio, sent to kill Dany. At KL Tywin's corpse is found and Cersei is awoken.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that projection but hey, feel free to enlighten me.

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It would be possible sure, but I just don't think it's necessary. Tyrion is not full on imprisoned for most of the season, he's still allowed to interact with people and scheme, so it's not like I'm proposing he's just rotting in a cell for half the season. And aside from Tyrion's imprisonment there's plenty of other KL material in S4: Jaime's reunion and subsequent fallout with Cersei, the Tyrell/Martell rivalry. And most importantly, it would be starting the season with a bang. At this point the audience is going to be familiar enough with the plot that we don't need this whole settling in section nearly as much. A firecracker start to the season would be much more appreciated. So to be generous let's say the PW happens in E2, which I guarantee you will be the latest it's in. Here's how it could then go:

  • E1: Oberyn's arrival, The wedding gifts and Tyrion coming to the conclusion that Joffrey sent the assassin after Bran.
  • E2: The PW.
  • E3: Sansa escapes and meets LF. Jaime and Brienne arrive in KL. Gross blasphemous incestuous menstrual sex next to a corpse. Tyrion confined and asked to come up with witnesses. Oberyn comes to see him.
  • E4: Tyrion's first trial. Jaime argues with Tywin
  • E5: Jaime sends Brienne on her quest (yes it's a little early.). Bronn refuses to champion Tyrion but Oberyn agrees.
  • E6: Jaime falls out with Cersei. Tyrion's final trial with Shae's testimony.
  • E7: Trial by combat.
  • E8: It's been indicated that the Battle at the Wall will be given the Blackwater treatment so it seems like we're getting at least one episode out from KL. I think it'll be here.
  • E9: Tyrion imprisoned, freed by Jaime, kills Shae and Tywin.
  • E10: Meets Illyrio, sent to kill Dany. At KL Tywin's corpse is found and Cersei is awoken.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that projection but hey, feel free to enlighten me.

Please don't get me wrong, Protar, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with being a book purist. :)

I think that the main problem I have with your projection is that it robs King's Landing of most of its complexity. One of the things that I loved the most about the first season was the nuance and how well the characters were drawn, we were really given the opportunity to understand and enjoy the characters on screen. The characters actually engaged in conversation which allowed the audience to understand what they were about - look at the wonderful Cersei-Robert scene from 'The Lion and the Wolf' or the scene between King Robert, Ser Barristan and Jaime Lannister from 'Lord Snow'. The second season was woefully lacking in these kind of scenes (barring "What is dead may never die" which gave us the wonderful scenes between Arya and Yoren, Renly and Margaery and Theon's turmoil). I really want them back!

If the PW was pushed forward then we would be given very little of the Tyrion-Sansa relationship. I really want to suffer the awkwardness of that relationship as the characters do. I want to see it evolve over the early episodes of Season IV before it is ripped apart. These are two central characters, let us not disservice them for the plot.

Then there is Oberyn himself, I want to understand what this character is about. Look at Alister Thorne in the first season when he berates Sam and Jon; I want this kind of character development re-injected into the show. I want to understand the revenge that drives him and need to avenge his sister - it is a driving device of Season IV. Oh, and I really want to see Olenna Tyrell call Ellaria 'the serpent's whore'.

Then there are the additional scenes, I doubt that the PW will be as opaque as it is in the books. I think that we will see the culprit commit the murder and therefore we will need some sort of build-up to the act. I'd like to see additional scenes between the Tyrells; maybe a new one between the QoT and Sansa. The possibilities are endless. I'd love some sort of 'goodbye' scene as Cersei prepares her son for his wedding.

For me the structure should be something like this:

  • Ep 1: Oberyn's arrival and the relationship between Sansa + Tyrion.
  • Ep 2: Martells vs Tyrells with the Lannisters attempting to keep the peace in the Capital.
  • Ep 3: Preparations for the wedding. Scene between Olenna and Tommen.
  • Ep 4: The Purple Wedding - with the scene at the end being a throwback to Ep 1.04 - 'Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things'
  • Ep 5: Direct aftermath of the wedding, including Sansa escaping the Capital. Jaime returns. Brienne is arrested. The episode would need to be named: "Kingslayer".
  • Ep 6: Prep for Tyrion's trial begins. Scene between Loras and Brienne.
  • Ep 7: Shae's betrayal. The final meeting between Oberyn and Tyrion. Tyrion wants trial by battle.
  • Ep 8: (as you say - Battle for the Wall) - No KL.
  • Ep 9: Trial by battle. Tyrion's escape. "Wherever Whores Go".
  • Ep 10: Tyrion attempts to escape King's Landing, Varys disappears and Cersei assumes power. Ellaria leaves King's Landing with Oberyn's bones.

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Please don't get me wrong, Protar, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with being a book purist. :)

Oh I know. It's the best way to be :P

I think that the main problem I have with your projection is that it robs King's Landing of most of its complexity. One of the things that I loved the most about the first season was the nuance and how well the characters were drawn, we were really given the opportunity to understand and enjoy the characters on screen. The characters actually engaged in conversation which allowed the audience to understand what they were about - look at the wonderful Cersei-Robert scene from 'The Lion and the Wolf' or the scene between King Robert, Ser Barristan and Jaime Lannister from 'Lord Snow'. The second season was woefully lacking in these kind of scenes (barring "What is dead may never die" which gave us the wonderful scenes between Arya and Yoren, Renly and Margaery and Theon's turmoil). I really want them back!

If the PW was pushed forward then we would be given very little of the Tyrion-Sansa relationship. I really want to suffer the awkwardness of that relationship as the characters do. I want to see it evolve over the early episodes of Season IV before it is ripped apart. These are two central characters, let us not disservice them for the plot.

I'm just not seeing how my projection is taking any of this away. There is still plenty of time for all these character interactions, Tyrion would just be imprisoned at the time. That's really exactly how it plays out in the books, there are for example no significant interactions between Oberyn and Tyrion between their first meeting and the PW.

As for Tyrion and Sansa, well I think it's clear that D+D aren't too keen on milking that situation for all it's worth, seeing as how they're moving it to so late in the season. I can't say I particularly disagree there, there are only so many scenes you can have of Tyrion and Sansa awkwardly having dinner.

Then there is Oberyn himself, I want to understand what this character is about. Look at Alister Thorne in the first season when he berates Sam and Jon; I want this kind of character development re-injected into the show. I want to understand the revenge that drives him and need to avenge his sister - it is a driving device of Season IV. Oh, and I really want to see Olenna Tyrell call Ellaria 'the serpent's whore'.

Again, not understanding how having the PW early prevents any of this. And tbh I don't think we'll get Elia. More likely they'll bring Arianne to KL to introduce her.

Then there are the additional scenes, I doubt that the PW will be as opaque as it is in the books. I think that we will see the culprit commit the murder and therefore we will need some sort of build-up to the act. I'd like to see additional scenes between the Tyrells; maybe a new one between the QoT and Sansa. The possibilities are endless. I'd love some sort of 'goodbye' scene as Cersei prepares her son for his wedding.

Wait do you mean like showing someone put poison in Joff's drink? That would be so unsubtle and dumbed down it wouldn't even be funny.

And yeah those other scenes would be good, but they can happen regardless of where the PW falls.

For me the structure should be something like this:

  • Ep 1: Oberyn's arrival and the relationship between Sansa + Tyrion.
  • Ep 2: Martells vs Tyrells with the Lannisters attempting to keep the peace in the Capital.
  • Ep 3: Preparations for the wedding. Scene between Olenna and Tommen.
  • Ep 4: The Purple Wedding - with the scene at the end being a throwback to Ep 1.04 - 'Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things'
  • Ep 5: Direct aftermath of the wedding, including Sansa escaping the Capital. Jaime returns. Brienne is arrested. The episode would need to be named: "Kingslayer".
  • Ep 6: Prep for Tyrion's trial begins. Scene between Loras and Brienne.
  • Ep 7: Shae's betrayal. The final meeting between Oberyn and Tyrion. Tyrion wants trial by battle.
  • Ep 8: (as you say - Battle for the Wall) - No KL.
  • Ep 9: Trial by battle. Tyrion's escape. "Wherever Whores Go".
  • Ep 10: Tyrion attempts to escape King's Landing, Varys disappears and Cersei assumes power. Ellaria leaves King's Landing with Oberyn's bones.

See, I'm not just seeing anything engaging happening in the first few episodes there. You've just put rather vague and unsubstantial statements like, "keeping the peace" and "wedding preparations" Now just to play devil's advocate there are potential scenes to pad things out like Tyrion catching onto Joffrey's assassination attempt, but I feel that they can be compressed into E1.

And also I think you've really stinted on the development after the PW. I mean no Jaime for half a season, no Bronn rejection scene, only one meeting between Oberyn and Tyrion after his imprisonment. I'm just failing to see how anyone could consider that compelling television. Sorry :/

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There's no way the Purple Wedding can be in one of the first two episodes. I'm expecting it no earlier than episode 4. The first few episodes will probably focus on Oberyn's arrival to King's Landing, the Battle at Castle Black, and the introduction of other new characters. They could devote almost an entire episode to the Purple Wedding, considering the amount of cast members involved: Joffrey, Tywin, Cersei, Kevan, Margaery, Loras, Sansa, Tyrion, Bronn, Shae, Varys, the Queen of Thorns and Oberyn, and hopefully Arianne, Ellaria Sand and Mace Tyrell.

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