Grand Tyrell Conspiracy Theory

[Anathematizer]

Oh, yes. "eagerness and ardent interest in pursuit of something". For me, it's too vague definition.

[Miriel]

DanteGabriel, TheMalcom, and Anathematizer:

Nice points. Thanks. :)

[TheMalcolm]

I'll remind you that I asked you to post sources from where your definitions came from. You have yet to provide them.

[Anathematizer]

I have no desire to state my definition is better than yours. I just wanted to find a point we could agree both. Without this, any discussion is senseless.

[TheMalcolm]

I said that the High Septon is a religious zealot. You disagreed with me, saying that he isn't a zealot, and provided an incorrect understanding of what a zealot is.

[Anathematizer]

Ok. There is no entry for zealot in "Soviet encyclopedical vocabulary" except historical one, but there is one for "fanaticism", and it cries "intolerable" in big red letters. Do you think intolerance is comparable with trading?

[TheMalcolm]

(If anyone has any idea what he's talking about with, "Do you think intolerance is comparable with trading?" then please tell me.)

[Anathematizer]

Isn't it a very simple question?

[cybroleach]

Somebody remind me why we believe that Qyburn is loyal to Cersei? Beyond the obvious "she's letting him do what he wants" cause that seems a little weak.

[Antonius Pius]

why would whoever was in charge of whatever is going on in KL at the end of Feast let Qyburn come in and speak with Cersei?

[TheMalcolm]

No, that's incorrect. Plenty of fanatical people are intolerant, but one hardly must be intolerant to be fanatical.

[Errant Bard]

Again, you're not making any sense here in English.

[Arakano]

I just wanted to say: Although I see the mistakes in TheMalcolms usage of English, I STILL understand perfectly what he tries to say.

Therefore: Is your mastery of your own language maybe not as great as you presume? OR is your failure to understand TheMalcolm a conscious and somewhat malign decision?

If you disagree with him, ok, if you are upset because he fails to see your point concerning dictonary definitions, ok - but these are still no good reasons for being rude.

There was a time, once, when Englishmen were famous for their politeness. Either this politeness got lost when the Mayflower set sails, or maybe it went to your head that almost everyone around the world tries to learn English as a secondary language.

Sorry for the rant, but well...

[Anathematizer]

Looking back on older posts, because your argument over semantics doesn't really make sense either

[Blackstone]

I don't know that "Zealot" is quite the correct word to use in association with the High Septon. Zealotry implies a loss of rationality, and the High Septon seems pretty rational to me. Certainly, he is highly devout and he also to me seems a man of principal, but he also seems smart and capable. And that in particular is why he is so dangerous.

A total loony would be easily distracted and manipulated. A lesser High Septon, would be easily bought off and corrupted -- as the previous several High Septons were.

Its true that he is using torture to wring confessions out of the Blue Bard and also the Kettleblack in his custody. But, this is a feudal culture and we have seen torture from the crown, from the high lords. This doesn't make him a zealot either. Petyr tortures that other singer, but no one calls him a zealot, or implies he is less than rational.

Anyway, my feeling is that the Tyrells have been plotting Cersei's downfall for a few months, and that Cersei has been plotting the Tyrell's downfall as well. They have caught each other in their plots and can't escape the High Septon. I'd bet on Margary for now, at least her Father and thier bannermen have an army.

[Arakano]

Lastly, his question of, "Do you think intolerance is comparable with trading?" does NOT make sense. I assume that he's getting "comparable" wrong in place of whatever word he's trying to convey there, and I haven't a clue why intolerance is being brought up in that context. I am being sincere.

I have understood everything he has said up until that last question. Since you say you understand him perfectly, tell me what he is trying to say then, please, for that last question.

[Anathematizer]

I don't know that "Zealot" is quite the correct word to use in association with the High Septon. Zealotry implies a loss of rationality, and the High Septon seems pretty rational to me.

[Errant Bard]

Then try and explain to me where I'm going wrong. Simply telling me that I'm wrong isn't gonna cut it, I'm afraid.

[Anathematizer]

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you're straying from the point by focusing on semantics for pages, when even if you have different definitions for one word, the High septon is still the same.

[wvlr]

MJS,

Excellent theory!

Although there are a few possible holes in it that others have pointed out. And a few things that others have even added that support it and that you had missed.

I really like it and think that it will mostly be confirmed in the next couple books.

My comments are as follows:

I really do not think that the QoT is in it for the family power. I know that you raised this possibility but I feel that your initial post presented both possibilities.

In my view the Tyrells and the QoT are not so much out for power at this point - they have it. Marg is married to the King. They are meerly trying to protect themselves AND Tommen.

You mentioned that Cersei was blatently obvious in her efforts to push the Tyrells away.

The rejection of every Tyrell applicant to KL and having Tommen "guarded" on his wedding night. This is a blatent effort to ensure the marriage was never consumated and obvious preparation for a future annulment. They would have had to be deaf, blind and terminally stupid not to see it.

So Cersei's actions in her first few chapters create an un-voiced war between them.

On top of that Cersei's decisions and actions are obviously bad for the relm, Tommen and the young queen (Marg).

Making enemies with the Iron Bank is not a good idea. Carelessly blurting out that Tommen's father won tournies could get Cersei, Tommen and Marg all killed.

The QoT is surely somewhere nearby to give Marg advice. The QoT, Marg and to a large extent Tarna (sp) are deffinitely in on it and I think Tarna is in on it willingly. I dont know how much Waters and the HS are involved but would guess that the HS is just being used and Waters is being bought. The possibility that her son could be a hostage IS interesting though. Added insurance I would guess.

Loras involvement is hard to guage. He is significant constrained by his honor, but MUST realize that his primary duty is to Tommen and the young Queen (Marg) so he might be persuaded that a betrayal of Cersei is the lesser evil. By the time he goes to Dragonstone he must be in on it though and I agree that any injuries he suffered must be minor. GrrM may surprise me on that, but I doubt it.

By the time that Loras left, all Cerseis mistakes and plans were obvious enough and far enough along (with the help of spy - Tarna) that with the extra time they had to make plans that night, they could put on a show to force Cersei's hand. She was an open book at that point and very predictable.

Madiens day/Loras supposed injury/the false hints of Marg's virginity were clear efforts on the Tyrell (read QoT here) part to bring the plot to its conclusion sooner versus later. They could not chance Cersei screwing up the Kingdom any more or maybe getting lucky and comming up with something to really use against them. Remember they DID kill Joffery!

I think that they did take a chance, but it way a well thought out chance and they have several backup plans. The QoT would not put all her eggs in one basket.

Thanks mjs for laying it all out.

The HS is a zealot and fanatic. He is a smart one though, I am not sure how smart. How much of his success was his cunning and how much was just Cersei's blatent stupidity. Mostly, I think it was the second, but being an opportunist does not preclude him being smart as well.