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Another Targ / Greenseer? ... (From Arianne sample chapter)


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So Teora Toland apparently has dragon dreams.

Have we decided / concluded that dragon dreams are either based on having Targ genes, or whether her prophetic dreams are Greenseerish?

The Toland arms are a dragon eating its own tail, symbolizing the inability of the Targs to successfully attack Dorne / Ghost Hill on a military level. But who is to say a political alliance was not made in the bedroom (random offshoot Targ bastard line in house Toland)

For those of you who read the sample chapter, is there anything substantial regarding Tolea's dreams? Targ, Greenseer, woods witch?

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So Teora Toland apparently has dragon dreams.

Have we decided / concluded that dragon dreams are either based on having Targ genes, or whether her prophetic dreams are Greenseerish?

The Toland arms are a dragon eating its own tail, symbolizing the inability of the Targs to successfully attack Dorne / Ghost Hill on a military level. But who is to say a political alliance was not made in the bedroom (random offshoot Targ bastard line in house Toland)

For those of you who read the sample chapter, is there anything substantial regarding Tolea's dreams? Targ, Greenseer, woods witch?

I've had that thought as well. Tolea having green dreams. I suspect there will be more about that in the later chapters of Arianne in TWoW. It's been a minute since I've read that sample chapter so I can't recall everything as of right now. I'll need to reread it, so I'll get back to you on that. :)

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GRRM has not made any indication as to prophetic nature of Teora Toland's dreams. However, I think we can safely discount the notion that Teora has been having green dreams, since the green dreamers we know of thus far are invariably associated with the Old Gods and the Children of the Forest. Moreover, they typically display noticeable characteristics (large, mossy eyes) indicative of their gift.

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To be a greenseer they had to know about COTF because that is how Northernman learned their gifts.COTF gave First Men their secrets and powers.I think they have prophetic dreams because Dragons are magical creatures and by being too close to magic for a long time they had a little magic in their blood.

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Also, their symbol of a dragon eating it's own tail reminds me of the ouroboros*. Which I always thought was strangely left out of GrrM many symbolism's.

And the whole dream thing always struck me as odd. Do they have any Targ heritage? Or any particular FM heritage? I checked the wiki and they don't have a pedigree chart set up. And it really just mentions their tWoW chapter, so I can only suspect that their wiki page was even shorter before hand.

"They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died." I think it means that Aegon and Dany aren't getting along.

*[From wikipedia] The Ouroboros often represents self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things perceived as cycles that begin anew as soon as they end (compare with phoenix).

Short definition. Arianne even thinks herself like Criston Cole the Kingmaker, who started the first Dance of the Dragons. This coupled with Tolands sigil, and Teora's dream about dragons "dancing" and destruction, gives us ample foreshadowing that Dany will not be welcomed in Westeros by Dorne, and by proxy Aegon.

I'm sure I had more, but I have to go to sleep for school tomorrow.

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It was then that pasty, pudgy Teora raised her eyes from the creamcakes on her plate. "It is dragons."

"Dragons?" said her mother. "Teora, don't be mad."

"I'm not. They're coming."

"How could you possibly know that?" her sister asked, with a note of scorn in her voice. "One of your little dreams?"

Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died."

"Seven save us." Lady Nymella gave an exasperated sigh.

"If you did not eat so many creamcakes you would not have such dreams. Rich foods are not for girls your age, when your humors are so unbalanced. Maester Toman says -- "

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Why would the the Dornish no align themselves w

Also, their symbol of a dragon eating it's own tail reminds me of the ouroboros*. Which I always thought was strangely left out of GrrM many symbolism's.

And the whole dream thing always struck me as odd. Do they have any Targ heritage? Or any particular FM heritage? I checked the wiki and they don't have a pedigree chart set up. And it really just mentions their tWoW chapter, so I can only suspect that their wiki page was even shorter before hand.

"They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died." I think it means that Aegon and Dany aren't getting along.

*[From wikipedia] The Ouroboros often represents self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things perceived as cycles that begin anew as soon as they end (compare with phoenix).

Short definition. Arianne even thinks herself like Criston Cole the Kingmaker, who started the first Dance of the Dragons. This coupled with Tolands sigil, and Teora's dream about dragons "dancing" and destruction, gives us ample foreshadowing that Dany will not be welcomed in Westeros by Dorne, and by proxy Aegon.

I'm sure I had more, but I have to go to sleep for school tomorrow.

why would the Dornish no align themselves the the targareans....it's the only logical alliance for Dany and /or Aegon. The Dornish never got along with the Trells....they can't stand the Lannisters and really have nothing to do with the Northmen or rivrelands....Same for Dany...she wouldn't make alliance with people she vies as taking her fathers throne and murdering her family

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Why would the the Dornish no align themselves w

why would the Dornish no align themselves the the targareans....it's the only logical alliance for Dany and /or Aegon. The Dornish never got along with the Trells....they can't stand the Lannisters and really have nothing to do with the Northmen or rivrelands....Same for Dany...she wouldn't make alliance with people she vies as taking her fathers throne and murdering her family

It could be some bad blood between Dorne and Dany for Quentyn. Arianne marries Aegon so he get's tied down with her, and that leaves no room for Dany to politically maneuver around and make alliances with them, so she goes all "Fire and Blood".

I agree that we can't leave out room for it meaning she will have beef with Jon or something, but I also think that the fact it was a dornish(wo)man that had the dreams, and said "They are coming" means it will take place around Dorne, or deal with Dorne more.

And I think what Dany will learn from her escapades in Meereen is that she needs to use her dragons, and burn some people more than trying to resolve everything with words. She is the dragon, btw. ;)

ETA: Also, I never said they wouldn't ally with a Targ, I said (though indirectly) that they would ally with Aegon, and Aegon wouldn't ally with Dany because he's tied down with Dorne, and as we know, Doran can keep a grudge for very long. And he could have burned the Dany bridge after his son died.

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Cersei have dreams too, she seems to believe it give her glimpses of the future. Since she's not a targ or a greenseer, should we call them "incestuous stupid whore dreams"?

Having dreams is like seeing future in flames, you only see what you want to see. And Teora probably heard about the slaver's bay and rumours of dragons.

It's not unlikely Toland's have targaryens ancestors but it should be noted that their sigil doesn't depict a classical winged dragon.

And stony dornishmen, who live in mountains, are mostly of andal and first men ancestry. So house toland and their sigil could originate from first men culture, teora dreams could be "greenseerish" in nature.

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Just spot balling here and i plan to do some research tomorrow but with the release of LOIAF (sorry I don't know how to tag a spoiler so I'll be as vague as possible) there are new lands with weird names that I've heard translates into something that might sound like a reference to a culture living their at some point that we are currently curious for more info about...hope that makes some sense but i want to know if it's possible that genetics could have passed down through many many generations that is shared by the first men and if so could that same trait have reached an obscure house in Dorne through Nymeria and the Rhyonish? Probably way to far fetched but could explain the few green dreamers mentioned who seem to have no possible blood of the first men. If green dreams are rare among the watered down first men blood of the northerners then it would be way rarer among the super duper watered down blood of these few other possible green dreamers. I hope i can find something a little more substantial to pull together a more cohesive theory...wish me luck or tell me a textual reason that i cannot be in any way even close to a possible theory so i don't waste a day!

If anyone can tell me how to set up a spoiler tag i would be grateful. I usually post through the mobile version...do i have to go through the main site to do that? Ty

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It's worth remembering that Dorne still has a large population of First Men descendents The argument could (and has) been made that due to the difficulty in conquering Dorne from the North and the large population of First Men still living there that Dorne was never conquered by the Andal's and remained predominantly First Men until the arrival of the Rhoynar.

Timeline wise the Andals arrived in Westeros roughly 2000 years ago after being displaced by the Rhoynar who were themselves being displcaed by the Valyrians. The Andals conquered the southern kingdoms as unified kingdoms, yet when the Rhoynar arrive some 700 years ago they found Dorne as a collection of petty kingdoms warring with each other. Doesn't sound to me like the Andal's had any more success then Aegon in conquering Dorne.

Bringing it back on topic, it would not be out of place at all for greendreams and other First Men magics to be found amongst the population of Dorne.

ETA : There is also the magics of the Rhoynar to consider in all of this as well.

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  • 10 months later...

I believe her to be of Targaryen decent in some way, it is worth noting that the Targaryen's are the only ones who dream of Dragons. Also wanna point out that in a lot of those dreams the Dragon symbolizes people, but the dreamer is usually confused and thinks that it is really a Dragon. An example of this would be this : "Daeron Targaryen once told Dunk about a dream he had. A great red dragon would fall on Ser Duncan, dead, but the knight would walk off alive. He said he did not know what it meant, but that his dreams came true and that he was scared of Dunk."


In this case Baelor "Breakspere" Targaryen was the big red Dragon.


I find Teora dreaming of Dragon's very interesting, the whole plot of GRRM's stories seems to be history repeating itself which is what the Dragon in the Toland sigil represents.


Who is this family and where did they come from ?

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The Daynes and other houses can trace their lineage to the first men, even after the Andal conquest of everything south of the neck. Some houses, like the Blackwoods are direct descendants of the first men and have never given up the old gods. That is the implication of the greenseeing ability of Bloodraven as a Blackwood relative. On the Flip side, It was a Targ woman who had the Dreams of the Doom.


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