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Angalin

R+L=J v.43

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Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?

Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Throneshas been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?

Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread 22a)

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

R+L=J v. 41 (thread forty-one)

R+L=J v.42 (thread forty-two)

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Jon Icefyre said,

God I really hate to see women getting hit in the series but that "wear it in silence or i'll honor you again" quote by Robert is fucking priceless lol.
Has always been priceless to me, as well.

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FrozenFire3 said,

Absolutely. They didn't even dare to show a close shot of Lyanna's face... This omission doesn't have any sense taking into account the attention to detail the graphic novel displays. Unless that death must stay secret...
Well, we cannot see her face if she is wearing a crown, can we? I tend to think that her crown is in the crypt with other things . . .

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Dorsai said,

As I said I'll do my scholars I'm not yet convinced that Benjen was younger than Lyanna
mean Benjen could not possibly be already the first Ranger at 24 , especially with the Halfhand in there who was older in age and service.
Damn, man, which is it? At Harrenhal I placed him at 10-12 (Lyanna was 14). If he was 12 at Harrenhal, he is 29 at the beginning of the story, not 24!

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How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?

Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Perusing the front of the new thread I was struck by this. Ghost being white has been discussed on some level here (I mentioned it back in v38 and I know it's been raised before) but I wonder if this angle has ever been brought up:

Jon, the half Targ/half Stark skinchanger, wargs a white direwolf that simultaneously represents House Stark (the direwolf) and House Targaryen (with the "weirwood coloring" of the only known Targ skinchanger who also happens to now be part of a weirwood tree)

I initially thought of Ghost's weirwood coloring as being a variation of Stark symbolism. I 'm wondering if others have noticed this Targ connection?

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Some time ago, I promoted that weirwood (white+red) is actually a union of ice and fire and the massive extermination of the weirwoods may have had something to do with disbalance of the seasons. Ghost then would be sent by the Old Gods to accompany the one who would set things right again, one who is a union of ice and fire.

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Some time ago, I promoted that weirwood (white+red) is actually a union of ice and fire and the massive extermination of the weirwoods may have had something to do with disbalance of the seasons. Ghost then would be sent by the Old Gods to accompany the one who would set things right again, one who is a union of ice and fire.

I reckon the red leans more towards blood sacrifice...thats just me though ;)

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I reckon the red leans more towards blood sacrifice...thats just me though ;)

Targ words are Fire & Blood, so it works nicely with both

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Some time ago, I promoted that weirwood (white+red) is actually a union of ice and fire and the massive extermination of the weirwoods may have had something to do with disbalance of the seasons. Ghost then would be sent by the Old Gods to accompany the one who would set things right again, one who is a union of ice and fire.

Very interesting. So Ghost being the symbolic representation of ice + fire is a very big clue (for those that still need them ;) )that Jon is ice & fire.

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I just wanted to say the analysis posted by new user MarinaC (Welcome!) in the last thread was pretty awesome. Great first post.

This is my first post, so I'm sorry if someone already had this idea or if I'm being idiot...

I don't think this is really the right place for my little theory, but I've read you guys discussing on Rhaegar's rubies a couple of pages back and that got me thinking...

So, this is the part about the rubies:

{(...) aye, and rubies.”

That interested Ser Hyle. “Rhaegar’s rubies?”

“It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”}

Well, the Ghost of High Heart said that the PtwP would be born from Aerys and Rhaella line. We know that there are 6 confirmed descendants of them:

- Rhaegar and his children, Rhaenys and Aegon (dead or not)

- Viserys

- Dany and Rhaego (stillborn, I know, but still...)

This is a nice parallel with the rubies. "Six have been found". But they're waiting for the seventh, like someone said, it's almost like they are waiting for a savior.

So, perhaps this passage is a hint that none of the know Targaryens of Aerys line are the PtwP, but there's still one not found yet.

I really believe that R+L=J, so Jon is the seventh ruby, thus the savior, the PtwP

It's certainly a stretch, or even a crackpot theory, because the rubies are Rhaegars, not Aerys, and Rhaego was stillborn, etc. But, after all, it doesn't change anything if it's right, it's just Martin showing what a great writer he is by hiding this litlle clues. I just wanted to know if I'm getting really crazy or if it does make sense.

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I just wanted to say the analysis posted by new user MarinaC (Welcome!) in the last thread was pretty awesome. Great first post.

:agree: Very insightful and I don't think crackpot at all, especially when taken with your metaphor of blood:rubies and the fact that the river (time) delivers the rubies (blood) downstream (the future) .

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:agree: Very insightful and I don't think crackpot at all, especially when taken with your metaphor of blood:rubies and the fact that the river (time) delivers the rubies (blood) downstream (the future) .

I like to say that these are GRRM's metaphors and we're just translating them. Speaking of, river = time is very nice. See what we can accomplish when we aren't wasting our time arguing about Jon's parentage? :D

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:agree: Very insightful and I don't think crackpot at all, especially when taken with your metaphor of blood:rubies and the fact that the river (time) delivers the rubies (blood) downstream (the future) .

That catch was pure gold.

I would add Tywin's "Rubies, garnets lack the fire" to the smith suggesting garnets for the eyes. The wolf pommel of Jon's sword has garnets, meaning the fire/Targaryen aspect of him has not yet been woken or revealed.

Beneath the empty eyes of the skulls on the walls, Jaime hauled the last dragonking bodily off the steps, squealing like a pig and smelling like a privy.

I am bleeding like a butchered pig, he [Jon] thought

So pigs are synonymous with dragonkings.

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I like to say that these are GRRM's metaphors and we're just translating them. Speaking of, river = time is very nice. See what we can accomplish when we aren't wasting our time arguing about Jon's parentage?

I should have referred to your catch on that metaphor ;) It was a good one though!

also I have to give credit to @Frozen Fire who said this in v.42

the river as metaphor of the blood/legacy/destiny flowing through generations

That catch was pure gold.

I would add Tywin's "Rubies, garnets lack the fire" to the smith suggesting garnets for the eyes. The wolf pommel of Jon's sword has garnets, meaning the fire/Targaryen aspect of him has not yet been woken or revealed.

Beneath the empty eyes of the skulls on the walls, Jaime hauled the last dragonking bodily off the steps, squealing like a pig and smelling like a privy.

I am bleeding like a butchered pig, he [Jon] thought

So pigs are synonymous with dragonkings.

Nice one on the garnets.

Let's not even get started on the symbolism of pigs :laugh:

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I knew there was a reason that the rubies = blood metaphor seemed familiar. From the HotU:

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last

breath murmured a woman’s name.... mother of dragons, daughter of death... Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.... mother of dragons, slayer of lies... Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.... mother of dragons, bride of fire...

That catch was pure gold.

I would add Tywin's "Rubies, garnets lack the fire" to the smith suggesting garnets for the eyes. The wolf pommel of Jon's sword has garnets, meaning the fire/Targaryen aspect of him has not yet been woken or revealed.

Beneath the empty eyes of the skulls on the walls, Jaime hauled the last dragonking bodily off the steps, squealing like a pig and smelling like a privy.

I am bleeding like a butchered pig, he [Jon] thought

So pigs are synonymous with dragonkings.

Rubies, garnet's lack the fire. "fire" being evocative of the Targaryens, of course. Yes. Just. Awesome. Not gonna touch that last part though. ;)

BTW, Tywin seems to have placed the Targaryens on a pedestal, even above the Lannisters. This might be a subtle reinforcement of that.

I should have referred to your catch on that metaphor ;) It was a good one though!

also I have to give credit to @Frozen Fire who said this in v.42

Thank you. I didn't mean to come off as nitpicky at all. I just wanted to emphasize that GRRM's work in this series is truly amazing, and that he is the one that deserves the credit. I am but a humble servant. Jon Snow might be the hero, but George is the king. :)

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FrozenFire3 said, Well, we cannot see her face if she is wearing a crown, can we? I tend to think that her crown is in the crypt with other things . . .

There is something royal in the crypt, I'm almost certain of that. I just can't decide if it is a crown, her bridal cloak complete with red dragon, or a dragon egg (the crib plaything of all trueborn Targs).

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I knew there was a reason that the rubies = blood metaphor seemed familiar. From the HotU:

Thank you. I didn't mean to come off as nitpicky at all. I just wanted to emphasize that GRRM's work in this series is truly amazing, and that he is the one that deserves the credit. I am but a humble servant. Jon Snow might be the hero, but George is the king. :)

No worries! And thank you for the HotU quote- that is a straight up simile! Can't believe I missed that. Proves once again that GRRM is very very tricky, hiding things in plain sight like that ;)

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There is something royal in the crypt, I'm almost certain of that. I just can't decide if it is a crown, her bridal cloak complete with red dragon, or a dragon egg (the crib plaything of all trueborn Targs).

It could be a ring belonging to the Targaryens like an ASOIAF version of the RIng of Barahir of Isildur's house; something Rhaegar gave Lyanna, a better gift for the woman you loved than some cumbersome dragon egg.

Or it could just be the answer to Jon's question of who his mother was.

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There is something royal in the crypt, I'm almost certain of that. I just can't decide if it is a crown, her bridal cloak complete with red dragon, or a dragon egg (the crib plaything of all trueborn Targs).

Ever since reading Dunk & Egg I am basically convinced it's an egg. Especially given Rhaegar's preoccupation with Summerhall and the rumor that Aegon trying to hatch dragon eggs caused the fatal fire there. It seems possible Rhaegar discovered a cache and gave them to his children. One question that theory constantly comes up against though- why does Dany have three eggs and where did they come from?

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