R+L=J v.43

[Er Rn]

It could be a ring belonging to the Targaryens like an ASOIAF version of the RIng of Barahir of Isildur's house; something Rhaegar gave Lyanna, a better gift for the woman you loved than some cumbersome dragon egg.

Or it could just be the answer to Jon's question of who his mother was.

Good thought. We already have evidence of a Targ ring proving it's owners identity in the one carried around by Egg in his boot.

I also like the idea of The wedding cloak or a dragon egg.

[Capt. Zemblanity]

FrozenFire3 said, Well, we cannot see her face if she is wearing a crown, can we? I tend to think that her crown is in the crypt with other things . . .

I had never even considered that she would have a crown. Omg. Thanks.

[Fire Eater]

Good thought. We already have evidence of a Targ ring proving it's owners identity in the one carried around by Egg in his boot.

I also like the idea of The wedding cloak or a dragon egg.

Nice remembering that Egg carried a ring the displayed Maekar's sigil to prove he was Maekar's son and prince. Lyanna's skeleton may have a ring on her finger displaying the Targ sigil or decorated with rubies.

[Alia of the knife]

I definitely believe that the direwolves are a gift of the old gods and guardians to the Stark children delivered by Bloodravens machinations, and I see Ghost as a reflection of Bloodraven, who was of Targaryen blood.

I also think the fact that Lyanna had her own statue was a nod to her status, and I suspect that it will be either a cloak, a crown, or an egg in her tomb.

If it was and egg, would the fires that burned Winterfell have hatched it?

The Rubies:

I think that is a fabulous theory, and how possible is it that Ned had the seventh ruby, and was saving it for Jon? I think he figured out, or was told more of Rhaegar and Lynna given his intimate circle that rode with him to the TOJ.

[The guy from the Vale]

That catch was pure gold.

I would add Tywin's "Rubies, garnets lack the fire" to the smith suggesting garnets for the eyes. The wolf pommel of Jon's sword has garnets, meaning the fire/Targaryen aspect of him has not yet been woken or revealed.

Beneath the empty eyes of the skulls on the walls, Jaime hauled the last dragonking bodily off the steps, squealing like a pig and smelling like a privy.

I am bleeding like a butchered pig, he [Jon] thought

So pigs are synonymous with dragonkings.

Not just that. Pigs and boars are synonymous with (dying) kings throughout the books. Aerys smelled like a pig. Bob was killed by a boar (i.e., his own lifestyle) that was then eaten by Cersei. Roose Bolton ate boar before heading for the Twins to attend the Red Wedding. Dany watched a boar kill a pit fighter before mounting Drogon. And Jon thought of Borroq the skinchanger and his boar only moments before he got Caesared.

[Er Rn]

I love the theory about the rubies. Excellent find.

[Alia of the knife]

I love the theory about the rubies. Excellent find.

I also have to say that I love that you have Daryl Dixon as your Avatar. :bowdown:

Okay, back on topic. :D

[Er Rn]

I also have to say that I love that you have Daryl Dixon as your Avatar. :bowdown:

Okay, back on topic. :D

:thumbsup: Thanks! I just love him.

/off topic :)

[Ser Creighton]

Very interesting. So Ghost being the symbolic representation of ice + fire is a very big clue (for those that still need them ;) )that Jon is ice & fire.

I always thought Ghost was symbolic of Bloodraven and was one of the ways Rivers would watch Jon.

[Greenfyre]

I always thought Ghost was symbolic of Bloodraven and was one of the ways Rivers would watch Jon.

Because they're both albinos?

Yes, that's logical. Ghost's visual separation from his packmates is also similar to Jon's visual separation from his cousins.

But there is no ice/fire union; Ghost is a creature of the north. "There are no direwolves south of the Wall," or Leaf's remark that the direwolves would be the last of the old species north of the Wall to survive, outlasting unicorns, giants, CotF themselves, etc.

In this respect, Ghost does symbolize Jon rather well. He, too, is a creature of the north -- whether you consider him from the standpoint of interests, storyline, or genetics -- and, of course, he will never be involved in southron politics in any sense. GRRM simply has no time for such a complete story reversal if he really means to finish in two books.

[Ygrain]

Ever since reading Dunk & Egg I am basically convinced it's an egg. Especially given Rhaegar's preoccupation with Summerhall and the rumor that Aegon trying to hatch dragon eggs caused the fatal fire there. It seems possible Rhaegar discovered a cache and gave them to his children. One question that theory constantly comes up against though- why does Dany have three eggs and where did they come from?

Haha, it would be quite fun if everyone thought that Rhaegar was going to Summerhall on emo trips while he was in fact looking for dragon eggs!

If it was and egg, would the fires that burned Winterfell have hatched it?

It apparently requires blood and fire to hatch them, but the Targ recipe doesn't include any info whether accidents count as a blood sacrifice or not or whether proximity matters.

[UVA]

Haha, it would be quite fun if everyone thought that Rhaegar was going to Summerhall on emo trips while he was in fact looking for dragon eggs!

Shoot, Rhaegar could do both -- reflecting on the Summerhall tragedy and becoming melancholy thinking on his family's dynastical past and future (I'm thinking a Targaryen Götterdämmerung) while hoping to find dragon eggs -- which end up several years later in his sister's hands.

[Ygrain]

I had never even considered that she would have a crown. Omg. Thanks.

/crackpot/: that crown would actually be her crown from Harrenhall which she was holding on her deathbed.

Because they're both albinos?

Yes, that's logical. Ghost's visual separation from his packmates is also similar to Jon's visual separation from his cousins.

But there is no ice/fire union; Ghost is a creature of the north. "There are no direwolves south of the Wall," or Leaf's remark that the direwolves would be the last of the old species north of the Wall to survive, outlasting unicorns, giants, CotF themselves, etc.

In this respect, Ghost does symbolize Jon rather well. He, too, is a creature of the north -- whether you consider him from the standpoint of interests, storyline, or genetics -- and, of course, he will never be involved in southron politics in any sense. GRRM simply has no time for such a complete story reversal if he really means to finish in two books.

His colouring is the same as of the weirwood which are not restricted to the North. And Jon's visual separation is not complete, he looks like Arya.

BTW, you still owe us your "better" candidates for Jon's father.

[J. Stargaryen]

Along the lines of my thread The Moment When All the Smiles Died, I've posted an analysis of Jon and blue winter rose symbolism here, for those that are interested.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Along the lines of my thread The Moment When All the Smiles Died, I've posted an analysis of Jon and blue winter rose symbolism here, for those that are interested.

I had a quick look at your Jon/blue winter rose symbolism and it's good but I'd still tend to fall on the side of it symbolising Lyanna/Stark women. One of the lines that I would pick out to support this is

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched

his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

On the assumption that the rose is a symbol of Jon the rose petals dying and falling from her hand doesn't add up for me. OK I get the idea of the child leaving her but dead? If it's a symbol of Lyanna/Stark women then it's a sign of her dying.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that one.

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

I just wanted to say the analysis posted by new user MarinaC (Welcome!) in the last thread was pretty awesome. Great first post.

If only I could favorite or like that post, I would. I don't think it's crackpot at all. It makes a lot of sense.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I had a quick look at your Jon/blue winter rose symbolism and it's good but I'd still tend to fall on the side of it symbolising Lyanna/Stark women. One of the lines that I would pick out to support this is

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched

his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

On the assumption that the rose is a symbol of Jon the rose petals dying and falling from her hand doesn't add up for me. OK I get the idea of the child leaving her but dead? If it's a symbol of Lyanna/Stark women then it's a sign of her dying.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that one.

I'll jump in here because we discussed this a bit in v.42 http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry4157506

The black petals could represent both Jon's future in the Night's Watch and the doomed love of R + L (which Jon is living symbol of, as @JS notes in the Blue Rosetta Stone thread) That's my takeaway from the aforementioned discussion. @JS may have a more in depth analysis...

[Alia of the knife]

The Naming of the Direwolves and their connections to the Stark children, (perhaps crackpot), but....

- Greywind/Robb: Leader of the pack. Strong, noble and shortlived.

- Ghost/Jon: A reflection of Jons difference from his pack, and connects the dreams he has of being in the Crypts, and not being welcomed by the Starks, the Kings of Winter. He doesn't belong there on the Winter throne, but to the Iron Throne, whether thats his fate, or not.

Nurtured a Stark, but by nature, a Dragon.

- Lady/Sansa: Gentle, contained and sacrificed.

This could foreshadow a point when Sansa sacrifices herself in some form to save her family, or even Arya. It makes sense to her Arc. The girl who all she ever wanted to do is leave home and make it to "Hollywood," now that she has and seen the underbelly, she now appreciates her home, the North and wants more than anything to go back, and likely do anything to save her home, name and family.

- Summer/Bran: A quiet wisdom, but also a ruthlessness, with perhaps a touch of darkness. Summer certainly made vicious, short work of Brans attacker, just as Bran through his apprentice with Bloodraven will make short work of his enemies, using his powers. He like Summer, is the Guardian, but as warging Hodar proved, (and we understand why he did it), Bran may not be above the forbidden to acheive saving his family and exacting revenge.

I think we also see that the old gods have quite a reach given that Jaimies own daughter, Myrcella, was almost killed, and certainly maimed by Darkstar.

- Nymeria/Arya: Nymeria reflects her fierce nature, and desire to make war on her families enemies. Nymeria, the name for the Warrior Queen who came to Dorne to find a home. While Arya is on the surface the most refective of the North, Arya like Nymeria has proven to be quite resilient, and adaptive, making friends and allies, creating her own "Pack" wherever she goes. I imagine her ability to attract an army is not outside the realm of possibility.

Like Nymeria, Arya left her home, and perhaps like Nymeria, she won't go back, but make her own Pack elsewhere, not cut off from the Starks, but apart.

But, I speculate more than anything, within the context of this theory, that her fate may intersect with Cersei and Maggie the Frogs prophesy. Who more than an adult Arya, would have more impact on Cersei, even over Dany, Sansa, or Margaery?

Arya as the reflection of Lyanna,(and also fond of flowers), the woman that Cersei perceived as already taking "all" from her, would fit Maggies prophesy, because if nothing else, she would be the least suspected, though I don't think she will be the one that kills her.

This also ties into Neds long-ago conversation with her:

Arya cocked her head to one side,"..Can I be a Kings councillor?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords, and yes, even a High Septon."

I don't think Martins choice of words here are an accident.

But, who would be Aryas "king?"

Shaggydog/Rickon: Wild, and uncontained. I know they are searching for him, but I think by the time they find him, he will be more of Oshas people. Even as a child, he was fierce, fierce in a way that even Arya wasn't.

Had things progressed properly, he likely would have been the adventuring Stark, maybe end up with Golden Company, or disappeared into the far North anyway, but I don't see Castle-living and acting a Lordling as his future.

[MtnLion]

Let's not even get started on the symbolism of pigs :laugh:

Pigs, ducks . . . how about some geese? :D

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

- Summer/Bran: A quiet wisdom, but also a ruthlessness, with perhaps a touch of darkness. Summer certainly made vicious, short work of Brans attacker, just as Bran through his apprentice with Bloodraven will make short work of his enemies, using his powers. He like Summer, is the Guardian, but as warging Hodar proved, (and we understand why he did it), Bran may not be above the forbidden to acheive saving his family and exacting revenge.

I'd like to add something that occured to me recently about Summer- Old Nan calls Bran her "sweet summer child" since he was born at the beginning of the long Summer. I think symbolizes that Bran's destiny is ultimately not North of the Wall.

Arya cocked her head to one side,"..Can I be a Kings councillor?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords, and yes, even a High Septon."

I don't think Martins choice of words here are an accident.

But, who would be Aryas "king?"

I agree this was not an accident and that Arya has a "king" I know some people point to this as proof to ship Jon + Arya, but imho that's just...ick! And unlikely for other reasons. As much as my heart says Gendry for her :love: , realistically I'd have to go with Trystane (the Nymeria/Dorne connection) or someone we haven't been introduced to yet.

Pigs, ducks . . . how about some geese? :D

From ASoIaF to A Song of Livestock and Farm animals? :unsure: