R+L=J v.43

[Bear Island Bruiser]

I'll jump in here because we discussed this a bit in v.42 http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry4157506

The black petals could represent both Jon's future in the Night's Watch and the doomed love of R + L (which Jon is living symbol of, as @JS notes in the Blue Rosetta Stone thread) That's my takeaway from the aforementioned discussion. @JS may have a more in depth analysis...

Ahhh cheers for that didn't read as much as I probably should have. I'm guessing the 'dying' petals would be a sign of him getting the occasional knife in the back as well?

One of the other things that grabbed me was how the blue rose that flowered in a wall of ice spread sweetness around. Would that be Jon (trying to) bring the wildlings and other together?

[J. Stargaryen]

I had a quick look at your Jon/blue winter rose symbolism and it's good but I'd still tend to fall on the side of it symbolising Lyanna/Stark women. One of the lines that I would pick out to support this is

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched

his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

On the assumption that the rose is a symbol of Jon the rose petals dying and falling from her hand doesn't add up for me. OK I get the idea of the child leaving her but dead? If it's a symbol of Lyanna/Stark women then it's a sign of her dying.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that one.

At the end of ADwD Jon is apparently dead. He's been black since he took his vows and became a brother of the NW.

ETA:

Ahhh cheers for that didn't read as much as I probably should have. I'm guessing the 'dying' petals would be a sign of him getting the occasional knife in the back as well?

One of the other things that grabbed me was how the blue rose that flowered in a wall of ice spread sweetness around. Would that be Jon (trying to) bring the wildlings and other together?

I don't have what I call a clear-cut 'translation' for sweetness, but to me it is evocative of goodness, hope, spring. Your idea of uniting the Wildings with the 'southerners' would certainly be in line with things like goodness, etc.

Incidentally, I feel it's worth mentioning the definition of chink:

a narrow opening or crack¹, typically one that admits light² : a chink in the curtains.

• a narrow beam or patch of light³ admitted by such an opening : I noticed a chink of light⁴ under the door.

a chink in someone's armor a weak point in someone's character, arguments, or ideas, making them vulnerable to attack or criticism.

1) Maybe a crack in the Wall; i.e., foreshadowing the Wall cracking, or breaking.

2-4) Perhaps as in Lightbringer or Dawn.

[Alia of the knife]

I'd like to add something that occured to me recently about Summer- Old Nan calls Bran her "sweet summer child" since he was born at the beginning of the long Summer. I think symbolizes that Bran's destiny is ultimately not North of the Wall.

I agree this was not an accident and that Arya has a "king" I know some people point to this as proof to ship Jon + Arya, but imho that's just...ick! And unlikely for other reasons. As much as my heart says Gendry for her :love: , realistically I'd have to go with Trystane (the Nymeria/Dorne connection) or someone we haven't been introduced to yet.

From ASoIaF to A Song of Livestock and Farm animals? :unsure:

I agree, so thats why I've decided that Jon and Elia Sand would be perfect for each other. :D

She's just like mom and Arya, but without the creepiness, AND through Oberyn, she still has dragons blood.

On Arya, perhaps theres another dragon out there, because it continues the Ice/fire and warging necessity. If it occurs to some clever dragon that warging their dragons replaces sorcery, (if dragons are to be a part of westeros again), and cruelty for the sake of control, then it may need to take a couple of generations for the right end result.

Jon was a good start, but maybe not enough.

(I'll refer you to the Bene Gesserit breeding program in 'Dune"). :P

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Ahhh cheers for that didn't read as much as I probably should have. I'm guessing the 'dying' petals would be a sign of him getting the occasional knife in the back as well?

One of the other things that grabbed me was how the blue rose that flowered in a wall of ice spread sweetness around. Would that be Jon (trying to) bring the wildlings and other together?

Yes- getting Caesared is pretty black :stunned:

I've wondered about the "sweetness" too. I don't think it's just a random statement, so your interpretation could very well be correct.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Yes- getting Caesared is pretty black :stunned:

I've wondered about the "sweetness" too. I don't think it's just a random statement, so your interpretation could very well be correct.

Hmm another thought is perhaps its a sign of Jon becoming UnJon? the rose blooms in a chink in the wall, like the ice cells he's keeping the dead bodies in. I've been told that dead bodies take on a sickly sweet smell so spreading a sweet smell.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Ewww!

[nekrohsis]

Just wanted to ask--how exactly did Ned and Howland pull down the ToJ to build the cairns for the dead men? Because it's a building, and they're just two guys. I doubt Rhaegar would have left the woman he loved in a building that was structurally unsound. Did Howland use magic to demolish it? That's the only thing I can think of. If that's true . . . just how powerful is Howland?

[Prince of the Green]

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but the fact that many Jon chapters are preceded or succeeded by Dany chapters may point to the Targaryen's being lumped together of a sort.

[Alia of the knife]

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but the fact that many Jon chapters are preceded or succeeded by Dany chapters may point to the Targaryen's being lumped together of a sort.

Thats actually a great question, but I imagine it's as you say, and Greenseer magic.

[Ser Leftwich]

Just wanted to ask--how exactly did Ned and Howland pull down the ToJ to build the cairns for the dead men? Because it's a building, and they're just two guys. I doubt Rhaegar would have left the woman he loved in a building that was structurally unsound. Did Howland use magic to demolish it? That's the only thing I can think of. If that's true . . . just how powerful is Howland?

If Ned's seven and the three KG all had horses, that makes for a strong source of force to pull down a stone tower. And/or they set fire to it, which burned out the wooden support aspects.

[MtnLion]

From ASoIaF to A Song of Livestock and Farm animals? :unsure:

Angalin did open the thread with barking. ;)

[Erudain]

Just wanted to ask--how exactly did Ned and Howland pull down the ToJ to build the cairns for the dead men? Because it's a building, and they're just two guys. I doubt Rhaegar would have left the woman he loved in a building that was structurally unsound. Did Howland use magic to demolish it? That's the only thing I can think of. If that's true . . . just how powerful is Howland?

ToJ is described as an old watchtower on the passes to Dorne, most likely made of stone, wood and adobe like XIII & XIV century real life watchtowers were build.

Fire would do the trick on such a building and bring it down on one single nigth.

[sabrecmc]

I knew there was a reason that the rubies = blood metaphor seemed familiar. From the HotU:

Ooooo...good catch with that! I knew you all would have good ideas on the rubies! Now I'm totally convinced the who 7th Ruby thing means, well, something. Still kind of hope the missing ruby shows up in Lyanna's crypt on a crown/ring/sword or whatever.

[Tree Warg]

I wonder how old of a structure it can be when the "Prince of the Realm" had it built for he and Lyanna. ��

[Dragonfish]

I wonder how old of a structure it can be when the "Prince of the Realm" had it built for he and Lyanna. ��

I don't believe it's ever stated that Rhaegar had it built.

[FittleLinger]

He most likely named it Tower of Joy, maybe that's where the confusion comes from. It's almost certain that Rhaegar didn't build it and it has been described as old I think on some occasions.

[Black Crow]

If Ned's seven and the three KG all had horses, that makes for a strong source of force to pull down a stone tower. And/or they set fire to it, which burned out the wooden support aspects.

You need to bear in mind that Ned's "seven" and the three Kings Guard were nothing of the sort. They will each have been accompanied by a squire/gofor/varlet, two or three lads to look after the horses, if not a groom apiece, and all the other followers and hangers on necessary to keep a man at arms and his horse in a condition fit to fight.

[Vendelin]

where was it mentioned that they pulled the whole tower down?

i thought they only used the fallen rocks for the graves, as it was old tower and i bet there was enough of it laying around for eight bodies

[Lord Rickon]

hey guys, first time poster here. just finished ADWD and am craving some thrones so I thought I would check out the forums. did most of you guys pick up that R+L=J on your own? I always had an inkling that something more was going to come of his parents but never thought this much into the details. was wondering if I just missed some big details along the line or if I am on par with most people.

[FittleLinger]

hey guys, first time poster here. just finished ADWD and am craving some thrones so I thought I would check out the forums. did most of you guys pick up that R+L=J on your own? I always had an inkling that something more was going to come of his parents but never thought this much into the details. was wondering if I just missed some big details along the line or if I am on par with most people.

Hey there! Welcome to the forums.

On the first read? Some did, most didn't. I certainly didn't, because you just want to know what happens next, a lot is going on, and it hasn't come down to who are his real parents really. So I wouldn't say you missed something enormous. But check those threads and especially the essay in the Tower of the hand website, it's pretty well laid out there, just to get familiar with (almost) the whole 360 degrees of the theory.