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R+L=J v.43


Angalin

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Hey there! Welcome to the forums.

On the first read? Some did, most didn't. I certainly didn't, because you just want to know what happens next, a lot is going on, and it hasn't come down to who are his real parents really. So I wouldn't say you missed something enormous. But check those threads and especially the essay in the Tower of the hand website, it's pretty well laid out there, just to get familiar with (almost) the whole 360 degrees of the theory.

Yeah the Tower of the Hand thing was actually the first thing I read on the forum. Very well laid out. Like you I had an idea but didn't get the whole thing. Just like you said just want to see what keeps happening next.

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hey guys, first time poster here. just finished ADWD and am craving some thrones so I thought I would check out the forums. did most of you guys pick up that R+L=J on your own? I always had an inkling that something more was going to come of his parents but never thought this much into the details. was wondering if I just missed some big details along the line or if I am on par with most people.

Welcome!

Anecdotal evidence suggests most of us didn't catch R+L=J, at least on the first read. I certainly didn't. Much like you, I thought something was fishy around the entire thing, and even doubted Ned as the father, but there was too much going on for me to really focus on this question... coming on to these boards really was a revelation in that sense.

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Exactly. If someone in the books had adressed the issue, maybe it would've got me/us thinking harder, but Martin is a lot fishier than that, heh... He just keeps you preoccupied, and I've always wondered how some people deny it because "it's obvious". Well it's not, and it's not written to be obvious or really questioned up to that point (the end of ADWD being that point).

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hey guys, first time poster here. just finished ADWD and am craving some thrones so I thought I would check out the forums. did most of you guys pick up that R+L=J on your own? I always had an inkling that something more was going to come of his parents but never thought this much into the details. was wondering if I just missed some big details along the line or if I am on par with most people.

I didn't pick up on it on my own, no. I knew something was up and that Ned was most likely not really his father but didn't put the pieces together until I came here and had it spelled out for me. It seems so obvious now, but I don't think it is to most readers, especially the casual ones.

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where was it mentioned that they pulled the whole tower down?

i thought they only used the fallen rocks for the graves, as it was old tower and i bet there was enough of it laying around for eight bodies

AGoT, ch.39, Eddard

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks and a tower long fallen...

...They waited before the round tower,the red mountains of Dorne at their backs,

The tower is first referred to as long fallen (ie in the present) but is standing in his dream of the three KG (in the past)

Also, both the wiki and the woiaf app mention that the Tower was pulled down to make the 8 cairns.

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Ooooo...good catch with that! I knew you all would have good ideas on the rubies! Now I'm totally convinced the who 7th Ruby thing means, well, something. Still kind of hope the missing ruby shows up in Lyanna's crypt on a crown/ring/sword or whatever.

I'm a believer in MarinaC's analysis, that the '7th ruby' is emblematic of Jon, and ties into the PtwP prophecy.

I don't think there will be a literal ruby in Lyanna's tomb, because I don't see Ned as the type to fall on his hands and knees in the middle of a river and scrounge around for a shiny rock. Also, I don't see an especially strong connection between Rhaegar and rubies. They're not really specific to him. Other's wear them during the story.

Maybe Mel has one of Rhaegar's rubies? :lol:

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I'm a believer in MarinaC's analysis, that the '7th ruby' is emblematic of Jon, and ties into the PtwP prophecy.

I don't think there will be a literal ruby in Lyanna's tomb, because I don't see Ned as the type to fall on his hands and knees in the middle of a river and scrounge around for a shiny rock. Also, I don't see an especially strong connection between Rhaegar and rubies. They're not really specific to him. Other's wear them during the story.

Maybe Mel has one of Rhaegar's rubies? :lol:

The other possibility would be the King's Guard. There are seven of them, just like the rubies in question. Sandor Clegane, who resides on the Quiet Isle, is a former King's Guard, and there has been speculation that the Elder Brother used to be a King's Guard, too (Jonothor Darry, specifically). I am not sure who the other four KG there would be, but the idea that Jaime or Barristan appearing at the Quiet Isle as the seventh ruby would be quite interesting nonetheless.

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The other possibility would be the King's Guard. There are seven of them, just like the rubies in question. Sandor Clegane, who resides on the Quiet Isle, is a former King's Guard, and there has been speculation that the Elder Brother used to be a King's Guard, too (Jonothor Darry, specifically). I am not sure who the other four KG there would be, but the idea that Jaime or Barristan appearing at the Quiet Isle as the seventh ruby would be quite interesting nonetheless.

Was it discussed that it might tie to the Stranger aspect? Seven gods, seven rubies, one not found (missing). Rhaegar's child thought dead, in fact being Jon, he is "strange" to his identity, denied of it by the NW joining, now maybe dead, afterwards maybe resurrected in some fashion? Stretching it a bit maybe, but...

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Was it discussed that it might tie to the Stranger aspect? Seven gods, seven rubies, one not found (missing). Rhaegar's child thought dead, in fact being Jon, he is "strange" to his identity, denied of it by the NW joining, now maybe dead, afterwards maybe resurrected in some fashion? Stretching it a bit maybe, but...

Coil had an interesting analysis of the burning of the idols on Dragonstone. He compared the Stranger to Jon based on Jon's own place (as somewhat of a stranger) in the Stark family, and the fact that the Stranger's hand or fingers catch fire; reminding us of Jon's own burnt hand.

I suggested that the Stranger could be thought of as the seventh of the seven gods/seven faces of god, based mostly on a gut feeling. I wonder if there is any textual evidence to back support that.

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I posted this in a different thread but it was suggested that I post here.

I am once again proposing that everyone take a hard re read of the TOJ material. The idea that Lyanna Stark dies of infection doesn't add up.

That is what I am really driving at here. Everyone here wants to believe that an infection killed Lyanna. I don't. Eddarad Stark the veteran of two wars and has countless kills, has "Vietnam flashbacks" about his sister dying of infection? I don't think it adds up.

I think she either takes a dose of what killed Jon Arryn (why it is introduced at all) and she stabs here self in the belly for good measure or she is wounded in the conflict possibly by Ned himself.

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I posted this in a different thread but it was suggested that I post here.

I am once again proposing that everyone take a hard re read of the TOJ material. The idea that Lyanna Stark dies of infection doesn't add up.

That is what I am really driving at here. Everyone here wants to believe that an infection killed Lyanna. I don't. Eddarad Stark the veteran of two wars and has countless kills, has "Vietnam flashbacks" about his sister dying of infection? I don't think it adds up.

I think she either takes a dose of what killed Jon Arryn (why it is introduced at all) and she stabs here self in the belly for good measure or she is wounded in the conflict possibly by Ned himself.

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??And what doesn't add up? Lyanna is dying in "a bed of blood" - a phrase consistently used for childbirth - not necessarily meaning right at the process of childbirth but childbirth-related. At the time of poor hygiene standards and no ATBs, contracting infection during childbirth was a common cause of death for fertile women. Ned recollects her having fever, which is a symptom of infection. What doesn't add up here? That her death haunts Ned? Well, he loved her dearly, and yet lost his father and older brother because of her, his own life was at stake, he fought a long bloody war because of her, had just lost his closest friends because of her, and when he finally found her, he could do nothing to prevent her death. A sufficient basis for a life-long trauma for me.

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??And what doesn't add up? Lyanna is dying in "a bed of blood" - a phrase consistently used for childbirth - not necessarily meaning right at the process of childbirth but childbirth-related. At the time of poor hygiene standards and no ATBs, contracting infection during childbirth was a common cause of death for fertile women. Ned recollects her having fever, which is a symptom of infection. What doesn't add up here? That her death haunts Ned? Well, he loved her dearly, and yet lost his father and older brother because of her, his own life was at stake, he fought a long bloody war because of her, had just lost his closest friends because of her, and when he finally found her, he could do nothing to prevent her death. A sufficient basis for a life-long trauma for me.

ETA: As for Jon Arryn's death, that's what set the whole thing off, so figuring out what killed him is a part of the main story arc and it reverberates through several books, last time when Lysa flew through the moondoor - and given Sansa's involvement, it may not even be the last time we hear about it.

ETA2: Messed posting, sorry.

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I meant the focus on exactly what kind of poison. It has been hammered home what it does in the book and the TV show. A little bit helps you calm the nerves a little more and it will help you sleep. A lot and you run a fever and die.

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I would think that Eddard may be a little more than sad that everything that you listed was over a serious misunderstanding.

He didnt just go to war. He rebelled against HIS KINGDOM. Ned's honor is the most dearest thing that he has. He even put his children in harms way for his honor (warning Cersie). Think he might have been a little pissed.

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That is what I am really driving at here. Everyone here wants to believe that an infection killed Lyanna. I don't. Eddarad Stark the veteran of two wars and has countless kills, has "Vietnam flashbacks" about his sister dying of infection? I don't think it adds up.

While anything is possible in theory, any other explanation for her death other than from complications from childbirth simply doesn't make a lot of sense given all the other clues that point to it.

Furthermore, I disagree that finding Lyanna, the manner of her death, and the resulting anxieties: claiming Jon as his son, committing treason against the new regime, raising Jon among his true born children -- would not haunt and traumatize Ned for the rest of his life. To reiterate what Ygrain said, Ned has suffered a terrible family tragedy with the murders of his father and brother, led armies in a bloody rebellion -- and all this strife culminates in a heartbreakingly tragic reunion with his beloved young sister. I'd be emotionally strung out too.

Whatever the circumstances of Lyanna's disappearance (abduction/ran way), Ned finds her dying most likely with a newborn child and Ned is the only hope she has to see that this child, which she can longer protect, is safe. With that promise, Ned takes on tremendous burden out of love for a dying sister. To add to this, I suspect the content of her promise was not only to keep Jon safe but to raise him as a Son of Winterfell, which meant that he couldn't be squirreled away to a vassal or banner man for example. This in turn causes a lot of resentment and anger in what was otherwise a happy marriage to Catelyn, not to mention the potential for someone (perhaps unfriendly to Ned and the Starks) to suss the truth of Jon's parentage out thus compromising his allegiance to Robert.

Given all of this, I don't see how her suicide or murder (as you seem to propose) would be a better explanation for Ned's memories and lifelong struggles surrounding these events.

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I would think that Eddard may be a little more than sad that everything that you listed was over a serious misunderstanding.

He didnt just go to war. He rebelled against HIS KINGDOM. Ned's honor is the most dearest thing that he has. He even put his children in harms way for his honor (warning Cersie). Think he might have been a little pissed.

"Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep." I don't think pissed comes anywhere close in relation to Lyanna, there is only gried and sadness in every single memory.

And sorry but no, honour is not what Ned values most, his family is, and for them he gives up his honour time and again. He lies to protect Catelyn, he confesses a crime he never committed to protect Arya and Sansa, and he lives lies for fourteen years to protect Jon. And, just BTW, he doesn't warn Cersei for honour - he warns her out of mercy, and at the time when he warns her, he is still the Hand to his best friend and in no imminent danger to himself or his family.

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I just found out the other day that R+L=J, at first I was pretty disappointed that I hadn't waited to find out the proper way (even though it's just a theory).

Anyway, I think that other things people should consider are

- Were Rhaegar and Lyanna married before Jon was born? That would make him a legitimate heir to the throne as well as stripping him of the bastard name Snow.

- How is he going to find out that he is a Targaryen? The only person who could tell him would be Howland Reed...

Also, there's a few other minor issues like him being dead. Also, presumably if he finds out he is a Targaryen then I wonder how he will become the third head of the Dragon.

-I for sure think Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. It's the only explanation for the KG being at the ToJ. At the moment Rhaegar died, Jon became the king. They weren't protecting Viserys. Also Mormont's raven (who I believe is warged by Bloodraven) repeatedly calls Jon king.

-I have no idea how he'll find out, though I agree Howland Reed is the most likely candidate. Another option would be through Bran and the weirwood network.

-IF (big IF) he is dead, I seriously doubt he'll stay that way. And I don't necessarily think of three seperate heads of the dragon. I think it's more one person having three seperate roles.

Try this thread if it interests you

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