R+L=J v.43

[Queen of Procrastination]

I just found out the other day that R+L=J, at first I was pretty disappointed that I hadn't waited to find out the proper way (even though it's just a theory).

Anyway, I think that other things people should consider are

- 1.Were Rhaegar and Lyanna married before Jon was born? 2. That would make him a legitimate heir to the throne as well as stripping him of 3. the bastard name Snow.

-4. How is he going to find out that he is a Targaryen? The only person who could tell him would be Howland Reed...

5. Also, there's a few other minor issues like him being dead. Also, presumably if he finds out he is a Targaryen then I wonder how he will become the third head of the Dragon.

Welcome!

1. We believe. That they were married, because the KG protected Lyanna (and Jon) and it is the duty of the KG to protect Jon. When Ned arrived at the TOJ the KG thaught that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead. Which would have made Jon King. And if Lyanna and Rhaegar weren´t married the KG would have protected Viserys. Since protecting the King is the primary duty of the KG and the members of the KG said that they were still true to their vows ( "We swore a vow) we can conclude that the KG were protecting their King. Which must have been Jon the legitimate heir of the IT. It is a popular idea that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a secret marriage at the Isle of Faces, a marriage infront of the Old Goods.

2. Yes it would make him the legitimate heir of the IT if:

- Aegon is fake

- He can prove his identitiy and Lyanna´s and Rhaegar´s marriage.

3. Yes Jon would be legitimate, but even if he were a bastard, Robb allready legitimated Jon in his will.

4. There are still discussions about that. The people who would know R+L=J are:

- Howland Reed who maybe told it Meera and Jojen. Some people think he did others don´t.

- The "they" at the TOJ. Ned says that they found him. Howland was the only one, apart from Ned, of the company who survived the fight withe the KG. We believe that there wer some servants and a midwife or maester at the TOJ who took care of Lyanna.

- Wylla. Jon´s wed nurse who (most likely) also was at the TOJ.

- Bloodraven. He most likely saw it in a weirwood version.

- Bran. He doesn´t know it right know, but he could the it in a weirwood version and he would tell Jon about it (if he ever leaves the cave).

Maybe also Benjen: He knew Ned very well and knew that Ned wouldn´t father a bastard. He also knew Lyanna and maybe helped her to make the KotLT stunt. It is also possible that Lyanna told Benjen about her escape. Even if she didn´t Benjen knew enough to put the things together.

5. GRRM has hinted in interviews that Jon most likely isn´t dead (forever). When someone asked him why he killed Jon off he responded with: "You think he´s dead, do you?". Besides POV characters don´t die (forever) in their own POV and Jon´s story ins´t finished right know he still has work to do like fighting the Others.

I hope I have answered all your questions and things became a bit more clear for you.

[MtnLion]

I just found out the other day that R+L=J, at first I was pretty disappointed that I hadn't waited to find out the proper way (even though it's just a theory).

Anyway, I think that other things people should consider are

- Were Rhaegar and Lyanna married before Jon was born? That would make him a legitimate heir to the throne as well as stripping him of the bastard name Snow.

Three of the most honorable men in the world, not just Westeros, offered their lives to protec their king, as they had vowed to do. That king was later named Jon by Ned.

- How is he going to find out that he is a Targaryen? The only person who could tell him would be Howland Reed...

Bran could tell him. Lyanna via Ned could tell him, with something in her tomb. Will ti really matter to Jon? I don't think so, Jon seems to be focused on defeating the White Walkers during the Battle for the Dawn Redux. He may be forced to take the Iron Throne to accomplish his goals, but he does not want it.

Also, there's a few other minor issues like him being dead. Also, presumably if he finds out he is a Targaryen then I wonder how he will become the third head of the Dragon.

Hmm, from what I know of Rhaegar, it seems that the Prince that was Promised is the paramount, and not the third head. It seems that Jon is the PtwP and will lead the other "heads" of the dragon.

[Ser Leftwich]

Besides why should Ned killy Lyanna?

Ha! "Killy."

[Alia of the knife]

Lyannas death, Ned stated of mind and the number Seven, (i.e. the rubies).

I have to say that I read the apsect of her fever as something that was happening over time.

I'm certainly a laymen, but if she had stabbed herself, growing up in a household full of men/warriors, and showing some marital prowess herself, I would think that she would have killed herself in a manner that would be quick, and would not have time to develop a fever.

And yes, Ned is stressed, and probably one of the saddest figures of the book.

He loved Lyanna, and I think if he could have found her heatlhy and whole, even with a baby, he would have been overjoyed and kept his loyalty to his family above Robert, who was never worthy of his friendship.

Here is something from another thread that captures those moments the best, and I think Evita not only says it best, but puts it in perspective.

NED’S MEMORY OF ROSE-PETALS

"I had a few observations, and I may have mentioned the following quote in another thread: “A storm of rose-petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death” (425).

1. The “storm” refers to the weather but it also suggests the “storm lords” – or Baratheons.

2. Martin employs the “rose-petals” to symbolize Lyanna, or even Lyanna and Rhaegar.
   
3. Is the “blood-streaked sky” literal or figurative? If it is literal, and if Lyanna recently gave birth to Jon, then does this “blood-streaked sky” intimate the comet? Is the comet a sign of the Prince that was Promised?
   
4. “Blue as the eyes of death” – this has to be a reference to the blue eyes of the wights and the Others, yes? Is “blue” a color associated with death in another context other than the wights and Others? Or do all who die have blue eyes? Is it significant that “Eddard” reveals these things? Or is Eddard’s dreams – or “waking” dreams – prophetic?
   

"Shakespeare imparts a character’s mental deterioration by having the character see, even talk with “ghosts”. To illustrate, Shakespeare arouses the readers’/viewers’ suspicions about Prince Hamlet’s mental state in a scene in which Hamlet sees his dead father’s ghost on the Elsinor towers while Hamlet joins Horatio for guard duty. Later, Old Hamlet’s ghost speaks to Hamlet. Thus, perhaps Martin uses the dream of the Tower of Joy reawakening in Ned’s subconscious as an indication of Ned’s finding himself on overload: Ned does seem “mega” stressed."

SEVEN

"Another ongoing motif is the number “seven”, a mystical number in literature, and Martin seems to repeat “seven” in this Eddard’s POV and in Catelyn’s next POV. For example, the Eyrie has seven towers; Robert mentions the “seven hells”, and Ned dreams, “They [Ned and his retinue] were seven facing three [Aerys Kingsguard]”. In earlier POV’s, Martin introduces the “new gods”, and he establishes a faith comprised of “seven” representative figures."

NED GROWS SUPERSTITIOUS

"In Catelyn’s first POV of the novel, we learn that Ned does not believe in “signs”. However, Ned seems to have grown more superstitious as he becomes embroiled in the culture that is King’s Landing. Martin says of Ned’s “Lyanna dream”: “He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years” (427). Ned attaches a mystical significance to his Lyanna dream. Perhaps the milk-of-poppy is muddling his wits, though."

"Next, Martin communicates Ned’s feelings about Cersei accompanying the King to Ned’s sick room in this sentence: “It did not bode well that she had” (427). Ned determines that Cersei’s accompanying Robert is a “bad” sign."

MARTIN’S CLEVER WORDING / LANGUAGE PATTERNS

LEECH

"Martin’s verb choice is quite a gem in Eddard’s thoughts of his fading memories: “but the years LEECH at a man’s memories” (424). Martin uses the intransitive form of the verb “leech”, which means “to draw off or deplete a supply of something” (Encarta Dictionary). Thus, as the years pass, time “depletes” Ned’s store of recollections, specifically the knowledge of the faces of the six men, along with Eddard, who confront the three of Aerys’ kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. Later, “leech” will appear in other connotations in Martin’s novels." -Evitamgfs

I think the fact that Ned thinks about the events of fifteen years prior, when he hadn't thought of them before indicates the stress and emotional trauma of love and loss. The fact that he was able to pull himself back together after all he'd been through while Robert was still festering, I think indicates his own steele beneaath. And the additional stress and trauma of seeing Elia and her childrens bodies probably made him wonder just who and what Robert was, so he certanly wanted to see his sister whole again.

[Queen of Procrastination]

Ha! "Killy."

LOL :D thanks for pointing it out I corrected it.

[The Bringer of Oranges]

"Next, Martin communicates Ned’s feelings about Cersei accompanying the King to Ned’s sick room in this sentence: “It did not bode well that she had” (427). Ned determines that Cersei’s accompanying Robert is a “bad” sign."

I really like this analysis, especially about the possibly prophetic sentence about the comet and the Others, but I would hesitate to claim that being wary about the twin sister of the guy who killed your men and badly injured you visiting your sickbed with the king would be supersticious. Cersei wouldn't do something like that unless she came with a goal.

It's not paranoia when you're right.

[Alia of the knife]

I really like this analysis, especially about the possibly prophetic sentence about the comet and the Others, but I would hesitate to claim that being wary about the twin sister of the guy who killed your men and badly injured you visiting your sickbed with the king would be supersticious. Cersei wouldn't do something like that unless she came with a goal.

It's not paranoia when you're right.

I think maybe because the natural order of business would be for Robert to come alone. Ned knows that Cersei's coming is a harbinger for something else.

(And Evitamgfs is great). :)

[Ygrain]

"Next, Martin communicates Ned’s feelings about Cersei accompanying the King to Ned’s sick room in this sentence: “It did not bode well that she had” (427). Ned determines that Cersei’s accompanying Robert is a “bad” sign."

Heh, if you lose the Landsmeet debate in Dragon Age: Origins, Eamon says "This... bodes ill for us all", and he's perfectly right since what follows is "guards, put these traitors under arrest" - yet, I doubt that his sentence is a sign of prescience rather than mere logical prediction. The same goes for Cersei's presence, IMHO.

- Speaking of DA:O - I'm sure that the AOISAF inspiration has been discussed to the death somewhere but what comes as relevant for our thread is both the similarity and reversal in Alistair's parentage: he is brought up by Arl Eamon whose wife is jealous of him and thinks that he is Eamon's bastard even though he keeps denying it - just gotta love the reversal!

[Sasha Steelsong]

He may be forced to take the Iron Throne to accomplish his goals, but he does not want it.

This is actually one of the main reasons I think he's the best choice for it. The whole those who don't seek power being most worthy and so on.

[Targaryen_Rubies]

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but the fact that many Jon chapters are preceded or succeeded by Dany chapters may point to the Targaryen's being lumped together of a sort.

Maybe it's a contrast between a representation of fire where Dany embraces all of fire's aspects( life and destruction) while Jon's is a balance and his is more along the lines of how the destruction of fire makes way for new life while ice preserves the best aspects of the old life?

As for the flower blooming from a crack(?) in the wall, perhaps it signifies how Jon grows from the chaos on the wall? As he leads the complications on the wall make him learn and grow as a leader and alludes to his rule being good (sweetness) as opposed to sour like aerys?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This is actually one of the main reasons I think he's the best choice for it. The whole those who don't seek power being most worthy and so on.

:agree:

Martin refers to this theme often, and usually in contrast to the corruption caused by power. We see the exact scenario of the reluctant leader who never sought power in Jon's election as LC of the NW. Also, the very construction of the Iron Throne is so that the King does not sit easily upon it. And in the ADwD Epilogue, Varys tells Kevan

Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.

Leaving Aegon aside, this sounds a lot like the way Ned Stark raised his sons. :)

[J. Stargaryen]

Lyannas death, Ned stated of mind and the number Seven, (i.e. the rubies).

I have to say that I read the apsect of her fever as something that was happening over time.

I'm certainly a laymen, but if she had stabbed herself, growing up in a household full of men/warriors, and showing some marital prowess herself, I would think that she would have killed herself in a manner that would be quick, and would not have time to develop a fever.

And yes, Ned is stressed, and probably one of the saddest figures of the book.

He loved Lyanna, and I think if he could have found her heatlhy and whole, even with a baby, he would have been overjoyed and kept his loyalty to his family above Robert, who was never worthy of his friendship.

Here is something from another thread that captures those moments the best, and I think Evita not only says it best, but puts it in perspective.

NED’S MEMORY OF ROSE-PETALS

"I had a few observations, and I may have mentioned the following quote in another thread: “A storm of rose-petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death” (425).

1. The “storm” refers to the weather but it also suggests the “storm lords” – or Baratheons.
   
2. Martin employs the “rose-petals” to symbolize Lyanna, or even Lyanna and Rhaegar.
   
3. Is the “blood-streaked sky” literal or figurative? If it is literal, and if Lyanna recently gave birth to Jon, then does this “blood-streaked sky” intimate the comet? Is the comet a sign of the Prince that was Promised?
   
4. “Blue as the eyes of death” – this has to be a reference to the blue eyes of the wights and the Others, yes? Is “blue” a color associated with death in another context other than the wights and Others? Or do all who die have blue eyes? Is it significant that “Eddard” reveals these things? Or is Eddard’s dreams – or “waking” dreams – prophetic?
   

<snip>

1 & 2 :bang:

J. Stargaryen Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. -out of frustration.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

1 & 2 :bang:

J. Stargaryen Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. -out of frustration.

I knew that would kill you :(

Let's take your mind off it and focus on 3 & 4.

Is there any evidence that the comet hung around for almost two years? Or that there was another one? I'm honestly very weak on comet references.

"Blue eyes of death"... can't believe I missed that one. That's what comes of thinking about storms of rose petals ;)

[Alia of the knife]

I knew that would kill you :(

Let's take your mind off it and focus on 3 & 4.

Is there any evidence that the comet hung around for almost two years? Or that there was another one? I'm honestly very weak on comet references.

"Blue eyes of death"... can't believe I missed that one. That's what comes of thinking about storms of rose petals ;)

On the comet, that is a good question, (there is a comet event right now that is supposed to last until the twenty-fourth).

I suppose in a fantasy world in such auspicious times, there could be more than one happening within a two-year period.

In another thread on Winterfell and it's links to Winter and mysticism, a poster brought up the fact that Martin said that Nan was wrong about her take on The Others, and said to think of them as like the Sidhe in Celtic mythology, made ice. They are beautiful, elegant and dangerous.

It was speculated that perhaps they are a symptom of a problem of imbalance between man and nature, rather than wholly "evil."

1 & 2 :bang:

J. Stargaryen Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. -out of frustration.

:bowdown:

[Alia of the knife]

double post

[J. Stargaryen]

I knew that would kill you :(

Let's take your mind off it and focus on 3 & 4.

Is there any evidence that the comet hung around for almost two years? Or that there was another one? I'm honestly very weak on comet references.

"Blue eyes of death"... can't believe I missed that one. That's what comes of thinking about storms of rose petals ;)

The idea that blood-streaked sky is connected to the bleeding star/comet is interesting but tenuous, I think.

In my Blue Winter Rosetta Stone thread, I said that the grouping of Lyanna, rose petals and blood was indicative of what we know about Jon's birth/Lyanna's death. However, other interpretations are possible. One that comes to mind that is more consistent with the events in that part of the text, is that eight people died that day because the KG refused to back down from their vow to defend the king.

[Greenfyre]

It's the only explanation for the KG being at the ToJ. At the moment Rhaegar died, Jon became the king.

Sigh...

At the moment Rhaegar died, Aerys was still the king.

Jon hadn't even been born yet, and there was no ultrasound the KG could have used to establish he would be a boy.

Anybody who thinks the KG were at the ToJ because they had sworn a vow to defend the king has some fast talking to do, to explain why they weren't defending Aerys in King's Landing.

As GRRM has explicitly said, the KG do not asseess the world, create their own strategies to defend the king, issue orders to themselves, and then follow those orders.

They are, basically, soldiers. They follow such orders as are given them by the royal family. They hope the royal family knows what the hell it's doing. And they were at the ToJ not because of Jon, who hadn't been born yet, but because Rhaegar had ordered them to stay there in Lyanna's defense.

[Budj]

Jaime was with Aerys and Rhaegar's family during the sack inside what was supposed to be the safest place for them to be.

Perhaps the initial reason the KG stayed at the ToJ rather than returning to KL was that Rhaegar ordered them to stay as a condition of his return. But the dialogue in Ned's fever dream makes it evident that the KG were aware of Aerys' and Rhaegar's deaths and were quite content to not go to Viserys. They stated that Darry was not of the KG so he can go help Viserys. Which implies since they are of the KG then Viserys is not the King and they are right where they need to be.

This has been hashed out many times and I'm assuming the unspoken context beneath what Er Rn posted.

Edit: And just to be clear the logic is based off of the top priority of the KG which is that at least one must be with the King at all times. A crown-prince's order does not trump that part of their oath.

[Ygrain]

Sigh...

At the moment Rhaegar died, Aerys was still the king.

Jon hadn't even been born yet, and there was no ultrasound the KG could have used to establish he would be a boy.

Anybody who thinks the KG were at the ToJ because they had sworn a vow to defend the king has some fast talking to do, to explain why they weren't defending Aerys in King's Landing.

As GRRM has explicitly said, the KG do not asseess the world, create their own strategies to defend the king, issue orders to themselves, and then follow those orders.

They are, basically, soldiers. They follow such orders as are given them by the royal family. They hope the royal family knows what the hell it's doing. And they were at the ToJ not because of Jon, who hadn't been born yet, but because Rhaegar had ordered them to stay there in Lyanna's defense.

Soldiers are allowed to ignore a top-priority standing order to follow the orders of someone lower in the chain of command? I believe not.

[Ser Leftwich]

Soldiers are allowed to ignore a top-priority standing order to follow the orders of someone lower in the chain of command? I believe not.

At the rate that news spreads in Westeros, it is completely reasonable that the KG heard about Rhaegar, Aerys, and bAegon, all at the same time. They all died within 2-3 weeks.

There is no reason that the order from Rhaegar and the standing order would be at odds. (This is assuming that Lyanna's baby is legitimate.)