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R+L=J v.43


Angalin

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At the rate that news spreads in Westeros, it is completely reasonable that the KG heard about Rhaegar, Aerys, and bAegon, all at the same time. They all died within 2-3 weeks.

There is no reason that the order from Rhaegar and the standing order would be at odds. (This is assuming that Lyanna's baby is legitimate.)

I was merely countering the argument that the KG were at ToJ purely at Rhaegar's orders, and that even after the succession line supposedly shrank down to Viserys. And, of course, with legit Jon, there are no orders at odds, which has been reiterated time and again.

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Anybody who thinks the KG were at the ToJ because they had sworn a vow to defend the king has some fast talking to do, to explain why they weren't defending Aerys in King's Landing.

There is a Kingsguard with Aerys, no reason to ask for a further explanation, or expect any fast talking be necessary.

As GRRM has explicitly said, the KG do not asseess the world, create their own strategies to defend the king, issue orders to themselves, and then follow those orders.

Ah, but the Kingsguard have a Lord Commander, and he is present.

They are, basically, soldiers. They follow such orders as are given them by the royal family. They hope the royal family knows what the hell it's doing. And they were at the ToJ not because of Jon, who hadn't been born yet, but because Rhaegar had ordered them to stay there in Lyanna's defense.

True, Rhaegar had three with him, and had left three with Lyanna, indicating that he valued her at least as much as himself. One was left to defend the king in the Red Keep, a castle within the castle of King's Landing, also supported by goldcloaks. That they chose to stay and die because of their vow (to protect and defend the king) after acknowledging that Aerys, Rhaegar, and sublimely Aegon are dead, and that Viserys has no Kingsguard indicates exactly one thing, the heir is present. We know that Jon was present, since he is the blue flower in Daenerys' vision.
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I was merely countering the argument that the KG were at ToJ purely at Rhaegar's orders, and that even after the succession line supposedly shrank down to Viserys. And, of course, with legit Jon, there are no orders at odds, which has been reiterated time and again.

@Ygrain This was not addresses at you, you just happened to be the last poster. And thank you, in general, for making clear statements.

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That the KG were at the Tower of Joy is not necessarily an indication that the king was there. In fact, I'd say it's a strong indication that the king was NOT there.

The KG seem to know that the war is over, and that Rhaegar and Aerys are dead. If their job is to PROTECT the king, what's the best way to do that? Three KG standing around and waiting for Eddard and Robert to come to the ToJ with an army? No, the best way to protect the king is to grab him and flee, either to Dragonstone to be with the Queen and Viserys, or across the narrow sea.

Staying behind dooms both them and the king. Also, look at the conversation they have with Ned. Do they try to reason with him? Do they warn against kinslaying? No, they talk like men resigned to death. Barristan Selmy, by all acounts as honorable knight as Dayne and the others, chose not to go to Viserys and in fact accepted a pardon. He accepted that the Targaeryan claim to the throne was over, and transferred his kingsguard oath to the new King.

I speculate that the three KG at the ToJ also recognized that the Targaeryan claim was over. But they felt they could not accept a pardon, and decided to fight to the death following the last order they were give: wait at the ToJ and kill Ned Stark or Robert when they arrived to rescue Lyanna.

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That the KG were at the Tower of Joy is not necessarily an indication that the king was there. In fact, I'd say it's a strong indication that the king was NOT there.

The KG seem to know that the war is over, and that Rhaegar and Aerys are dead. If their job is to PROTECT the king, what's the best way to do that? Three KG standing around and waiting for Eddard and Robert to come to the ToJ with an army? No, the best way to protect the king is to grab him and flee, either to Dragonstone to be with the Queen and Viserys, or across the narrow sea.

Staying behind dooms both them and the king. Also, look at the conversation they have with Ned. Do they try to reason with him? Do they warn against kinslaying? No, they talk like men resigned to death. Barristan Selmy, by all acounts as honorable knight as Dayne and the others, chose not to go to Viserys and in fact accepted a pardon. He accepted that the Targaeryan claim to the throne was over, and transferred his kingsguard oath to the new King.

I speculate that the three KG at the ToJ also recognized that the Targaeryan claim was over. But they felt they could not accept a pardon, and decided to fight to the death following the last order they were give: wait at the ToJ and kill Ned Stark or Robert when they arrived to rescue Lyanna.

The kingsguard does not flee - those are the exact words of their Lord Commander to Ned. Also, Darry, who fled with Viserys and Dany was not kingsguard. Finally - Lyanna was the mother of the heir and she wasn't dead till after the battle - it would have been absurd to risk her and the baby's life by such a trip. And they cannot just leave her there to die.

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The kingsguard does not flee - those are the exact words of their Lord Commander to Ned. Also, Darry, who fled with Viserys and Dany was not kingsguard. Finally - Lyanna was the mother of the heir and she wasn't dead till after the battle - it would have been absurd to risk her and the baby's life by such a trip. And they cannot just leave her there to die.

So the KG are supposed to put their honor, in not fleeing, above the king's life? It is more absurd to hang around and wait for Ned or Rob to show up with an army, which would lead to certain death vs. taking a risky trip which may or may not lead to death.

If they were concerned about saving Lyanna's, or a hypothetical child's, life, you think they would have checked to see how Ned felt about it, instead of assuming they had to fight him to the death.

Edit: Barristan "fled" with Aerys when he rescued him from Duskendale. It's not like he felt he had to kill every one of them himself in order to rescue the king. He grabbed the king, and then escaped to safety.

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So the KG are supposed to put their honor, in not fleeing, above the king's life? It is more absurd to hang around and wait for Ned or Rob to show up with an army, which would lead to certain death vs. taking a risky trip which may or may not lead to death.

If they were concerned about saving Lyanna's, or a hypothetical child's, life, you think they would have checked to see how Ned felt about it, instead of assuming they had to fight him to the death.

I simply repeated the exact words the LC said to Ned in the exact situation, I am not judging what is the best course of action.

Also - TOJ was supposed to be a secret location. They never knew when, who, or whether they will be found. Maybe it was a timing thing. In their eyes Ned is the right hand of Robert, who is utterly mad at the Targaryens. They stayed and defended them, and that's their job. You said it would make more sense for them to be there if there is no heir - what are they doing there in such case?

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So the KG are supposed to put their honor, in not fleeing, above the king's life? It is more absurd to hang around and wait for Ned or Rob to show up with an army, which would lead to certain death vs. taking a risky trip which may or may not lead to death.

If they were concerned about saving Lyanna's, or a hypothetical child's, life, you think they would have checked to see how Ned felt about it, instead of assuming they had to fight him to the death.

They are protecting their king as they have vowed to do, by dying if needs be. Ned is the general of the rebel troops, do they need any further information? The child is the heir, not Lyanna, and certainly they could have taken the child and fled before Ned arrives and left their queen to die on her own. From the perspective of the Kingsguard members it seems that they did not anticipate Ned arriving as quickly as he did at the remote outpost that they guarded. They certainly are not going to abandon Lyanna and child to flee, as they say. They are not going to drop Jon as heir, to take the safe position that Viserys is the heir, even though Ned offered them a chance to do so. No, their honor and their vow demands that they fight the rebel forces, and die if need be to protect their king.
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The kingsguard does not flee - those are the exact words of their Lord Commander to Ned. Also, Darry, who fled with Viserys and Dany was not kingsguard. Finally - Lyanna was the mother of the heir and she wasn't dead till after the battle - it would have been absurd to risk her and the baby's life by such a trip. And they cannot just leave her there to die.

So the KG are supposed to put their honor, in not fleeing, above the king's life? It is more absurd to hang around and wait for Ned or Rob to show up with an army, which would lead to certain death vs. taking a risky trip which may or may not lead to death.

If they were concerned about saving Lyanna's, or a hypothetical child's, life, you think they would have checked to see how Ned felt about it, instead of assuming they had to fight him to the death.

Edit: Barristan "fled" with Aerys when he rescued him from Duskendale. It's not like he felt he had to kill every one of them himself in order to rescue the king. He grabbed the king, and then escaped to safety.

Ned and Robert would have to know where to look in the first place, and the KG may not have been aware in time to make prepartaions that their location was compromised. Also, they cannot just grab the baby and go away, they have to arrange a wetnurse or at least a goat - unknown what arrangements and when were made in this respect.

Furthermore, the risk which Ned poses is not a direct threat to the child's life but the fact that he is honour-bound to reveal the existence of another heir of Rhaegar's to Robert, and that is something the KG cannot allow.

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As I said in my first post, their orders could have been to wait there and kill Robert or Ned when they showed up to rescue Lyanna. The location couldn't be held secret forever, as shown by Ned showing up there.

Such an order cannot take precedence over their primary duty to protect the king, which would be Jon or at least Viserys. It doesn't make sense for them to put so much stress on being Kingsguard if they were to perform a menial task of killing someone.

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And even further - they almost won! It was the 3 absolute best against 7 more mediocre, and there was the real chance that they would win the battle. It's not like they were doomed with no chances of winning. If they had won - then we don't know what would have happened. An army would have reached them a lot slower. Which means - if an army comes - they would have had the time to decide the best course of action, and if a small force such as Ned's comes quicker and surprises them - they would have been perfectly able to deal with it, which almost happened.

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As I said in my first post, their orders could have been to wait there and kill Robert or Ned when they showed up to rescue Lyanna. The location couldn't be held secret forever, as shown by Ned showing up there.

As Ygrain says, the Kingsguard stress that they are Kingsguard, they do not flee, that they swore a vow (not that they are following orders). So, one needs to read at least AFfC to read what the Kingsguard's vow is, and Jaime puts it bluntly, "to protect and defend the king".
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Ned and Robert would have to know where to look in the first place, and the KG may not have been aware in time to make prepartaions that their location was compromised. Also, they cannot just grab the baby and go away, they have to arrange a wetnurse or at least a goat - unknown what arrangements and when were made in this respect.

Furthermore, the risk which Ned poses is not a direct threat to the child's life but the fact that he is honour-bound to reveal the existence of another heir of Rhaegar's to Robert, and that is something the KG cannot allow.

Finding a wet nurse shouldn't be a problem, if Lyanna was expecting a child. They should have already had one ready. Also, finding a boat shouldn't be too hard either. They're in Dorne, which remained loyal to the crown.

Also, why do they have to keep the identity of a proper heir a secret? What advantage is there for the Targaeryan line in that?

Such an order cannot take precedence over their primary duty to protect the king, which would be Jon or at least Viserys. It doesn't make sense for them to put so much stress on being Kingsguard if they were to perform a menial task of killing someone.

It can if they accept, like Barristan did, that the Targaeryan's were finished. Rather than accept a pardon, they decided to follow the last order given.

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As Ygrain says, the Kingsguard stress that they are Kingsguard, they do not flee, that they swore a vow (not that they are following orders). So, one needs to read at least AFfC to read what the Kingsguard's vow is, and Jaime puts it bluntly, "to protect and defend the king".

Taking the king to safety is not fleeing. As when Barristan rescued Aerys from Duskendale. Barristan didn't fight to the death while the king escaped. And he didn't try to kill the entire garrison himself. He rescued the king, and fled the town to safety. Protecting the king doesn't have to mean fighting to the death. Protecting the king could mean fleeing with the king to safety.

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It can if they accept, like Barristan did, that the Targaeryan's were finished. Rather than accept a pardon, they decided to follow the last order given.

And, you explain how Barristan thinks that it was treason for him to do so, by?

ETA: That is the point, they are not following ORDERS, they have sworn a VOW, they explicitly point this out.

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Taking the king to safety is not fleeing. As when Barristan rescued Aerys from Duskendale. Barristan didn't fight to the death while the king escaped. And he didn't try to kill the entire garrison himself. He rescued the king, and fled the town to safety. Protecting the king doesn't have to mean fighting to the death. Protecting the king could mean fleeing with the king to safety.

And, they should desert their queen?
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And, you explain how Barristan thinks that it was treason for him to do so, by?

It took him seventeen years to come to that conclusion, and only then because of how corrupt Joffrey was. If Dany had turned out to be mad like Aerys, he probably wouldn't have come to that conclusion at all.

And, they should desert their queen?

Yes they should. They are Kingsguard, not Queensguard. Their first duty is to protect the sovereign, not his consort. I believe it has been established that the royal family does not automatically get KG protection, it is up to the king whether to grant it or not. If it becomes a matter between the King and the Queen Mother, they have to pick the King. Something Lyanna would agree to, I'm sure.

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Finding a wet nurse shouldn't be a problem, if Lyanna was expecting a child. They should have already had one ready. Also, finding a boat shouldn't be too hard either. They're in Dorne, which remained loyal to the crown.

Also, why do they have to keep the identity of a proper heir a secret? What advantage is there for the Targaeryan line in that?

It can if they accept, like Barristan did, that the Targaeryan's were finished. Rather than accept a pardon, they decided to follow the last order given.

They are not keeping it secret. They know Ned will put two and two together. That's why they won't let Ned get the baby.

Barristan was badly wounded at the trident, Rhaegar dead, and Barristan captured. What was he supposed to do - make a run for it and join the others at the TOJ? His taks (protect Rhaegar) had already failed.

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Lyanna was the perfect hostage / collateral for Aerys against the rebellion. Secrecy was of utmost importance. Rhaegar could have ended that rebellion, but he didn't want to risk what his father could / probably would do to Lyanna. Dorne was also furious with him (another reason for secrecy).

If Rhaegar commanded them to protect her and Jon is legitimate then they are able to uphold both their main vow and the prince's request by remaining at the ToJ till Lyanna either dies or gets better. They had no idea someone was going to give up their location.

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