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R+L=J v.43


Angalin

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It's in the app under the entry for 'Benjen Stark':

The app entry notwithstanding, I dunno... I don't think Benjen's decision to join the NW can be explained entirely by his guilt over his knowledge and/or possible involvement in the Rhaegar-Lyanna affair. Based on how Martin sketches Benjen in GOT -- how he talks about the NW, his comments about how the NW is his family, defending the Wall -- this a crusade for him. Unlike the rest of the realm, this is a necessary calling, especially for a Stark. His comments to Jon about not knowing what he'd be giving up by taking the oat, etc. do not have a double meaning in regards to Jon's royal blood here.

That said, I firmly believe that Benjen knows (knew?) the truth of Jon's parents and has, like Ned lived with this dangerous truth ever since Ned arrived back at Winterfell with a newborn and his sister's bones. My wishful thinking here has Benjen confront Ned about the events down south, Lyanna's death and the baby; whereby Ned admonishes Ben and makes him vow never to speak of it again...all in front of Winterfell's weirwood. Perhaps another vision for Bran?

I don't doubt that it's in the App i'm saying where is it in the books and which book to be specific? Or does GRRM just tell us this little bit of information in an interview or something? Because either way I would like to try and find it.

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As a general question, has anyone considered that Selmy was at ToJ? Everyone seems to believe that Howland Reed is the only one alive who knows what happened at ToJ, but even he does not know what happened prior to the ToJ event.

Let me see if i can break this down;

We know that Selmy was at the tourney where Rheagar ran off with Lyanna

Aerys had sent the rest of his KG with Rheagar, save Jaime. (Selmy not in KL)

Rheagar was at the ToJ with all of the KG (3 at least, where are the rest at this time?)

Rheagar leaves ToJ to rally his Southern army and meet Robert at the Trident where he dies. (Selmy is here)

I can't find anything to account for the location of Selmy in all this

This means Selmy knows about the evens leading up to ToJ (R+L theorized marriage and conception of Jon)

So I ask, IF R+L=J does Selmy know if R+L were married? He may not necessarily know that Jon is the child, but if he were with Rheagar prior to him leaving ToJ for the Trident he could provide necessary information regarding Lyanna's pregnancy.

Just to be clear I am not stating that Selmy knows Jon is Rheagar's child, but that he knows the events leading up to Rheagar's departure from ToJ including and marriage or conception that may have occured. If someone with a little more insight as to definite locations of other KG members could provide some clarification on this I would appreciate it.

If I'm a total moron an Selmy was somewhere else please feel free to point it out and mock accordingly.

Selmy was fatally wounded at the Trident and taken prisoner by Robert who then eventually pardoned him and retained him as a KG, and before that he was busy fighting at the battle of the bells. So I don't really see where Selmy would have had the time/chance to go to the TOJ.

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Right, but Rheagar was killed at the trident, I'm asking if Selmy was with Rheagar while he was at ToJ before he left. I'm assuming that while Rheagar was at ToJ Selmy was there as well. I find it hard to beileve that Rheagar was off travelling the countryside rallying his army for the trident with any KG there. Slemy is not at KL because Aerys had sent all the KG away since he was crazy. Where else would they have been? No other members of the Royal family were outside KL except Rheagar. Its stands to reason that Selmy was with Rheagar the whole time and didn't just show up at the trident.

Edit: as in my origional post, I'm not asking if Selym was at ToJ when Ned was there. I'm asking about him being present for events leading up to the Trident.

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We know that Selmy was at the tourney where Rheagar ran off with Lyanna

The tourney is where they met, apparently, but nothing suggests that that's where he "abducted" her.

Aerys had sent the rest of his KG with Rheagar, save Jaime. (Selmy not in KL)

Dayne, Whent and Hightower were at the Tower of Joy. Jaime stayed in King's Landing and Selmy, Darry and Martell were at the Trident with Rhaegar.

Rheagar was at the ToJ with all of the KG (3 at least, where are the rest at this time?)

See above.

Rheagar leaves ToJ to rally his Southern army and meet Robert at the Trident where he dies. (Selmy is here)

I can't find anything to account for the location of Selmy in all this

This means Selmy knows about the evens leading up to ToJ (R+L theorized marriage and conception of Jon)

It's very clear that Barristan doesn't think of himself as being in Rhaegar's inner circle, which I think is GRRM's way of telling us he doesn't know squat about Jon.

So I ask, IF R+L=J does Selmy know if R+L were married? He may not necessarily know that Jon is the child, but if he were with Rheagar prior to him leaving ToJ for the Trident he could provide necessary information regarding Lyanna's pregnancy.

See above. Barristan knows that Rhaegar wasn't as close to him he was to, say, Dayne, and as such I think we're expected to conclude that he was in the dark regarding Jon and Lyanna.

Just to be clear I am not stating that Selmy knows Jon is Rheagar's child, but that he knows the events leading up to Rheagar's departure from ToJ including and marriage or conception that may have occured. If someone with a little more insight as to definite locations of other KG members could provide some clarification on this I would appreciate it.

If I'm a total moron an Selmy was somewhere else please feel free to point it out and mock accordingly.

I think Selmy knows that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but no more. And I won't mock. ;)

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Hmm okay, so Rheagar was never at ToJ? Did I just pull that out of my ass?

Somehow I thought that before rallying his army for the Trident, Rheagar was at ToJ with Lyanna.

I'm pretty sure it's an ass-pull yeah. Especially considering that neither Ned nor Barrstian remember him being there.

Rhaegar rode back to King's Landing in order to lead the army at the Trident; the way I read it, Barristan was in King's Landing just about the entire time and was only with Rhaegar when they went to fight at the Trident.

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Right, but Rheagar was killed at the trident, I'm asking if Selmy was with Rheagar while he was at ToJ before he left. I'm assuming that while Rheagar was at ToJ Selmy was there as well. I find it hard to beileve that Rheagar was off travelling the countryside rallying his army for the trident with any KG there. Slemy is not at KL because Aerys had sent all the KG away since he was crazy. Where else would they have been? No other members of the Royal family were outside KL except Rheagar. Its stands to reason that Selmy was with Rheagar the whole time and didn't just show up at the trident.

Edit: as in my origional post, I'm not asking if Selym was at ToJ when Ned was there. I'm asking about him being present for events leading up to the Trident.

No Aerys sent Selmy to get the troops from the battle of the bells and rally them to the Tirdent.

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I don't doubt that it's in the App i'm saying where is it in the books and which book to be specific? Or does GRRM just tell us this little bit of information in an interview or something? Because either way I would like to try and find it.

There's subtle mention of it in the Knight of the Laughing Tree story. There was a black brother at the tourney who spoke about the watch.

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You won't find it, but does that invalidate what I'm saying?

I never said it did that's was never my point, I want to find the source of this info(how the app got it) so I can read it for myself as that seems to be something I missed i'm not saying it's not true.

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As a general question, has anyone considered that Selmy was at ToJ? Everyone seems to believe that Howland Reed is the only one alive who knows what happened at ToJ, but even he does not know what happened prior to the ToJ event.

Let me see if i can break this down;

We know that Selmy was at the tourney where Rheagar ran off with Lyanna

Aerys had sent the rest of his KG with Rheagar, save Jaime. (Selmy not in KL)

Rheagar was at the ToJ with all of the KG (3 at least, where are the rest at this time?)

Rheagar leaves ToJ to rally his Southern army and meet Robert at the Trident where he dies. (Selmy is here)

I can't find anything to account for the location of Selmy in all this

This means Selmy knows about the evens leading up to ToJ (R+L theorized marriage and conception of Jon)

So I ask, IF R+L=J does Selmy know if R+L were married? He may not necessarily know that Jon is the child, but if he were with Rheagar prior to him leaving ToJ for the Trident he could provide necessary information regarding Lyanna's pregnancy.

Just to be clear I am not stating that Selmy knows Jon is Rheagar's child, but that he knows the events leading up to Rheagar's departure from ToJ including and marriage or conception that may have occured. If someone with a little more insight as to definite locations of other KG members could provide some clarification on this I would appreciate it.

If I'm a total moron an Selmy was somewhere else please feel free to point it out and mock accordingly.

In ADwD ch.67, Barristan remembers that

The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne
He is referring to not being included in the plans to hold the tourney at Harrenhal. It seems unlikely that Rhaegar would then include him in his plans involving Lyanna Stark, which didn't come into play for months afterward. During the Rebellion we know Barristan and Jonothor Darry were sent (presumably from KL) to rally the Targaryen troops in the Riverlands after Jon Connington's defeat at Stoney Sept. So even though we don't have a blow by blow of his activities for months at a time, I think we have enough to go on to say he was not involved in the ToJ.
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