R+L=J v.43

[Ghost's Shadow]

Who present knew Rhaegar and Lyanna intimately? Obvious answer is Robert and Ned. Who does Jon look like? He looks like Arya, who is said to look almost identical to Lyanna. Robert will start a whole new line of thoughts if he sees Jon up close, and those thoughts expose Ned’s treason.

To pick up on this, you're right that the book says Jon looks like Arya (and Lyanna), has the Stark looks of dark (grey) eyes and a longer (or was it colder?) face, but in the comic book, if I deducted it correctly, he looks very much like Rhaegar in the face? Is that correct?

Although, Cercei says this:

“I glimpsed him once at Winterfell,” the queen said, “though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father.”

[The guy from the Vale]

To pick up on this, you're right that the book says Jon looks like Arya (and Lyanna), has the Stark looks of dark (grey) eyes and a longer (or was it colder?) face, but in the comic book, if I deducted it correctly, he looks very much like Rhaegar in the face? Is that correct?

Although, Cercei says this:

Cersei didn't know Lyanna all that well, though. If they even ever met. So Jon looking like Ned doesn't mean he also can't look like Lyanna, quite the opposite.

[Jon Icefyre]

Cersei didn't know Lyanna all that well, though. If they even ever met. So Jon looking like Ned doesn't mean he also can't look like Lyanna, quite the opposite.

Agreed and once again Jon is the only Stark boy to have prominent "stark features" so of course Jon is gonna look more like Ned in the eyes of someone else when they're comparing him to Robb, Bran, and Rickon who all have Cat's Tullys features. Another thing about that quote that sticks out to me is the part that says “though the Starks did their best to hide him." Ned pretending that Jon is his bastard gives him the perfect excuse to keep Jon out of the presence of the royal family(aka Robert) or any highborn for that matter that might start asking questions.

[Ghost's Shadow]

No, I was comparing him to Rhaegar, to see how much his face, though he might have the darker hair and eyes of the Starks, has Rhaegar in it. But then Cercei claims that she saw him (though only glimpsed) and she didn't jump to conclusions.

Though I guess the thing is in the 'glimpsed' because from afar, even if he shares features with Rhaegar too, it won't be noticed over his darker hair (and eyes, if she even saw those).

She might have as well just seen his back for all we know. Dark hair of Jon and Eddard versus the redheads most of the 'real' Stark children are. Like his father indeed.

[Ghost's Shadow]

If I may:

Another thing about that quote that sticks out to me is the part that says “though the Starks did their best to hide him." Ned pretending that Jon is his bastard gives him the perfect excuse to keep Jon out of the presence of the royal family(aka Robert) or any highborn for that matter that might start asking questions.

Everything about that sentence was brilliant:

1. “I glimpsed him once at Winterfell,” = a glimpse is not staring him right in the face, if there was anything of Rhaegar in it (Cercei had a crush on him, right, so she might know well what he looked like, although long ago) she might not have noticed.

2. “though the Starks did their best to hide him.” = something that never happens to Jon because he's used to growing up next to the other Stark children as his siblings. There was a specific reason for that and imo it wasn't just to not offend the queen.

3. “He looks very like his father.” = for the people who look for more behind a sentence than the actual words, and have come to the conclusion that L+R=J, this is a real kicker, because of course he doesn't look like his father, but like his uncle and mother.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

3. "He looks very like his father." = for the people who look for more behind a sentence than the actual words, and have come to the conclusion that L+R=J, this is a real kicker, because of course he doesn't look like his father, but like his uncle and mother.

On the other hand,Cersei in all her clueless glory could be giving us a real hint here and Jon does in fact simultaneously look like both his father (as he is apparently portrayed in the graphic novels) and his mother in the same way my son looks like his father because of coloring and shape of face, yet at the same time looks a whole lot like me ;)

*edited for clarity

[thegreatwhitebear]

Ever since reading Dunk & Egg I am basically convinced it's an egg. Especially given Rhaegar's preoccupation with Summerhall and the rumor that Aegon trying to hatch dragon eggs caused the fatal fire there. It seems possible Rhaegar discovered a cache and gave them to his children. One question that theory constantly comes up against though- why does Dany have three eggs and where did they come from?

Bc she's the mother of dragons and the dragon has three heads.lol I personally believe it's bc she's the LAST TRUE Targ left. Regardless of jon who is half targ.

[David Mourning]

I have to say I'm going to be pretty dissapointed if this theory doesn't turn out being true. There is just way too much foreshadowing. The blue rose on the wall really was what sealed it for me. I don't see any other of Lyanna's kids on the wall unless GRRM is trolling us and Pip or Grenn is a secret Stark. What are the other options?

Ashara + Ned sort of falls apart because of a number of reasons. It feels out of character for Ned. But the most important reason: what did Ned promise Lyanna? Why is he so obsessed with the price he paid for that secret? The best guess to make this theory work would be that she had the child that would be fake Aegon. But we know Jon Connington fled with him, so doesn't that make the timeline a bit dicey? Also, if the baby was already gone why would the Kingsguard still be there? We can make a real stretch and say that Ned still had Ashara's kid and picked up another at ToJ and somehow got him to Connington through Howland Reed but I feel like this would really be stretching it. What did that really cost him that Jon Snow didn't?

Ned+Wylla would just be so boring that I would call it a writing fail.

Lyanna+Aerys is also insufficiently foreshadowed. Yes there is some minor hints that it might be possible, but I still feel like it would be weak.

But then again, fake or real Aegon was really only foreshadowed in the HotD, and only then if he is fake. My biggest complaint about DwD, which i rather enjoyed other than that and the Tyrion chapters.

And since we all know Jon Snow is not really (finally) dead at the end of DwD, I am starting to worry that GRRM is jumping the shark with the fakeout deaths and sudden surprise introductions of characters with virtually no foreshadowing. Do not get me wrong, I love this series more than any other. That is why I am invested in its success. I would just hate if GRRM took away R+L=J after all the groundwork set for it just because fans figured it out. If he makes it Wylla+Ned he might as well just call it a day and have Hot Pie as the Prince that was Promised and I can happily be over it.

[Ygrain]

I have to say I'm going to be pretty dissapointed if this theory doesn't turn out being true. There is just way too much foreshadowing. The blue rose on the wall really was what sealed it for me. I don't see any other of Lyanna's kids on the wall unless GRRM is trolling us and Pip or Grenn is a secret Stark. What are the other options?

Ashara + Ned sort of falls apart because of a number of reasons. It feels out of character for Ned. But the most important reason: what did Ned promise Lyanna? Why is he so obsessed with the price he paid for that secret? The best guess to make this theory work would be that she had the child that would be fake Aegon. But we know Jon Connington fled with him, so doesn't that make the timeline a bit dicey? Also, if the baby was already gone why would the Kingsguard still be there? We can make a real stretch and say that Ned still had Ashara's kid and picked up another at ToJ and somehow got him to Connington through Howland Reed but I feel like this would really be stretching it. What did that really cost him that Jon Snow didn't?

Ned+Wylla would just be so boring that I would call it a writing fail.

Lyanna+Aerys is also insufficiently foreshadowed. Yes there is some minor hints that it might be possible, but I still feel like it would be weak.

But then again, fake or real Aegon was really only foreshadowed in the HotD, and only then if he is fake. My biggest complaint about DwD, which i rather enjoyed other than that and the Tyrion chapters.

And since we all know Jon Snow is not really (finally) dead at the end of DwD, I am starting to worry that GRRM is jumping the shark with the fakeout deaths and sudden surprise introductions of characters with virtually no foreshadowing. Do not get me wrong, I love this series more than any other. That is why I am invested in its success. I would just hate if GRRM took away R+L=J after all the groundwork set for it just because fans figured it out. If he makes it Wylla+Ned he might as well just call it a day and have Hot Pie as the Prince that was Promised and I can happily be over it.

Rest assured, GRRM has said repeatedly that he is not going to change a thing because of the fan theories; after all, he doesn't even read them.

What makes you think that there might be something to Aerys-Lyanna? There is no basis to think that the two could have met in the proper time window for conceiving Jon.

[David Mourning]

Rest assured, GRRM has said repeatedly that he is not going to change a thing because of the fan theories; after all, he doesn't even read them.

What makes you think that there might be something to Aerys-Lyanna? There is no basis to think that the two could have met in the proper time window for conceiving Jon.

It isn't that I believe it to be a viable theory, but rest assured GRRM is very aware of R+L=J and everytime he talks about it he has a sour taste in his mouth. Back to Aerys+Lyanna there are some crazed theorists that believe it. It still makes Jon a Targ which is sort of important assuming Daenarys ever actually reaches Westeros and isn't killed on page 15 of WoW and Victarion takes the dragons back to Westeros instead, I'm beginning to wonder if she ever will. /tangent. Aerys was quoted at least once if not several times in the books (my knowledge is good but not encyclopedic) for saying he could take any woman he wanted to Tywin (allegedly about Joanna). We know Lyanna was "kidnapped" by the targs according to Robert. The vague possibility exists.

[Ygrain]

It isn't that I believe it to be a viable theory, but rest assured GRRM is very aware of R+L=J and everytime he talks about it he has a sour taste in his mouth. Back to Aerys+Lyanna there are some crazed theorists that believe it. It still makes Jon a Targ which is sort of important assuming Daenarys ever actually reaches Westeros and isn't killed on page 15 of WoW and Victarion takes the dragons back to Westeros instead, I'm beginning to wonder if she ever will. /tangent. Aerys was quoted at least once if not several times in the books (my knowledge is good but not encyclopedic) for saying he could take any woman he wanted to Tywin (allegedly about Joanna). We know Lyanna was "kidnapped" by the targs according to Robert. The vague possibility exists.

Well, GRRM was the one who planted all those hints there, so he shouldn't be surprised that some people were able to follow - that's different from figuring out something he leaked unintentionally.

I wonder what makes anyone think that Aerys had anything to do with Lyanna's abduction, as the blame is very clearly pinned on Rhaegar, and Aerys is said to have learned the news only after Brandon's action.

Oh, and BTW, welcome to the boards!

[David Mourning]

Well, Robert also says that Lyanna was raped over and over by Rhaegar so I think it is safe to say this his opinions could fall under the realm of "unreliable narrator". I still believe it to be an extreme outside possibility (some people also think Tyrion may be Aerys son). However I do believe George has made enough unsteady groundwork that if he is willing to have Aegon show up with one (I suppose two if you think the baby was unrecognizable after death and Clegane did it) hints, that it is still within the realm of possibility.

That being said, I'd be beyond extremely dissapointed if R+L=J doesn't pan out. I wouldn't give up the series, I just think the other alternatives are too boring/unforeshadowed to work out successfully after 5000 pages or whatever.

Thank you for the warm welcome! :)

[Alia of the knife]

It isn't that I believe it to be a viable theory, but rest assured GRRM is very aware of R+L=J and everytime he talks about it he has a sour taste in his mouth. Back to Aerys+Lyanna there are some crazed theorists that believe it. It still makes Jon a Targ which is sort of important assuming Daenarys ever actually reaches Westeros and isn't killed on page 15 of WoW and Victarion takes the dragons back to Westeros instead, I'm beginning to wonder if she ever will. /tangent. Aerys was quoted at least once if not several times in the books (my knowledge is good but not encyclopedic) for saying he could take any woman he wanted to Tywin (allegedly about Joanna). We know Lyanna was "kidnapped" by the targs according to Robert. The vague possibility exists.

Welcome to the boards.

The only way I could see A+L=J, is if Aerys attacked Lyanna after the Harrenhal event to punish Rhaegar.

BUT, something like that would be very hard to hide, because I don't think Lyanna would meekly keep quiet, and probably would leave Aerys with a few scars of his own for good measure, and likely start a war THEN.

As far as GRRM goes, what I've read and heard from his is he loves leaving "bread crumbs," and is quite pleased when people guess correctly.

And, I believe guessing R+L=J correctly was one of the requirements of the present group of doing the series, because it means they know the series well enough to do it justice.

GRRM is only a little younger than my dad would have been, but I remember the stories and traditions of young boys going to the movies on a Saturday afternoon, immersing themselves in the serial mysteries and cliffhangers which was a rite of passage, and I think certainly impacted GRRM's later creativity.

He would remember the excitment and the thrill of holding on to the edge of your seat about "what happens next, so , I don't think he's hostile to R+L=J. :)

[Ygrain]

Well, Robert also says that Lyanna was raped over and over by Rhaegar so I think it is safe to say this his opinions could fall under the realm of "unreliable narrator". I still believe it to be an extreme outside possibility (some people also think Tyrion may be Aerys son). However I do believe George has made enough unsteady groundwork that if he is willing to have Aegon show up with one (I suppose two if you think the baby was unrecognizable after death and Clegane did it) hints, that it is still within the realm of possibility.

That being said, I'd be beyond extremely dissapointed if R+L=J doesn't pan out. I wouldn't give up the series, I just think the other alternatives are too boring/unforeshadowed to work out successfully after 5000 pages or whatever.

Thank you for the warm welcome! :)

Well, I think it's not quite illogical on Robert's part to assume that Rhaegar didn't take Lyanna just to sing to her in moonlight, he's just getting it wrong consent-wise ;-)

As Alia says, Aerys trying anything on Lyanna would have had repercussions for him, and I can only add that Jon was conceived a few months into the Rebellion when Lyanna was alread with Rhaegar, so I believe Aerys is quite safely out.

[David Mourning]

Welcome to the boards.

The only way I could see A+L=J, is if Aerys attacked Lyanna after the Harrenhal event to punish Rhaegar.

BUT, something like that would be very hard to hide, because I don't think Lyanna would meekly keep quiet, and probably would leave Aerys with a few scars of his own for good measure, and likely start a war THEN.

As far as GRRM goes, what I've read and heard from his is he loves leaving "bread crumbs," and is quite pleased when people guess correctly.

And, I believe guessing R+L=J correctly was one of the requirements of the present group of doing the series, because it means they know the series well enough to do it justice.

GRRM is only a little younger than my dad would have been, but I remember the stories and traditions of young boys going to the movies on a Saturday afternoon, immersing themselves in the serial mysteries and cliffhangers which was a rite of passage, and certainly impacted his later creativity.

He would remember the excitment and the thrill of holding on to the edge of your seat about "what happens next, so , I don't think he's hostile to R+L=J. :)

I think you are right. I guess the whole Aegon thing just left a little bit of a sour taste in my mouth after just re-reading the series in preparation for season 3 of the show. I actually started at a Storm of Swords this time because I've read the first two so many times... each in preparation for the new book. But I really cannot reconcile a way that it was sufficiently foreshadowed. It was, as even GRRM might have put it.... a Twilight Zone style "twist". I appreciate that you can re-read the books and actually see the foreshadowing for all the major events except that one.

If I am missing some major Aegon foreshadowing btw, please save me from myself. But it leaves me to believe he might do anything just for the sake of a twist and it de-values the writing of the series in my opinion. But the random fake/real Aegon arrival and the obviously fakeout Jon Snow death really, really bother me about that book. How many fakeout deaths are too many? And for me, I about lost my patience with that one. I don't care if you kill off major characters, or I wouldn't be so invested. I do care that the magic revivals are going to hurt the series. I hate Uncat, and im going to hate UnJon or WargJon or RhllorJon just as much.

[David Mourning]

Well, I think it's not quite illogical on Robert's part to assume that Rhaegar didn't take Lyanna just to sing to her in moonlight, he's just getting it wrong consent-wise ;-)

As Alia says, Aerys trying anything on Lyanna would have had repercussions for him, and I can only add that Jon was conceived a few months into the Rebellion when Lyanna was alread with Rhaegar, so I believe Aerys is quite safely out.

Oh no, I was just trying to cover every theory I've heard about his parentage. I think it's a.... misguided theory as well, though I am not a master of the exact timeline of the rebellion.

[Ygrain]

I think you are right. I guess the whole Aegon thing just left a little bit of a sour taste in my mouth after just re-reading the series in preparation for season 3 of the show. I actually started at a Storm of Swords this time because I've read the first two so many times... each in preparation for the new book. But I really cannot reconcile a way that it was sufficiently foreshadowed. It was, as even GRRM might have put it.... a Twilight Zone style "twist". I appreciate that you can re-read the books and actually see the foreshadowing for all the major events except that one.

If I am missing some major Aegon foreshadowing btw, please save me from myself. But it leaves me to believe he might do anything just for the sake of a twist and it de-values the writing of the series in my opinion. But the random fake/real Aegon arrival and the obviously fakeout Jon Snow death really, really bother me about that book. How many fakeout deaths are too many? And for me, I about lost my patience with that one. I don't care if you kill off major characters, or I wouldn't be so invested. I do care that the magic revivals are going to hurt the series. I hate Uncat, and im going to hate UnJon or WargJon or RhllorJon just as much.

I believe that Aegon has been sufficiently foreshadowed as false, so I am not bothered by his appearance much. As for Jon's presumed death... we shall see. Perhaps all the previous un-deaths served the single purpose of foreshadowing what will happen to him. But, it is a most annoying cliffy!

[David Mourning]

I believe that Aegon has been sufficiently foreshadowed as false, so I am not bothered by his appearance much. As for Jon's presumed death... we shall see. Perhaps all the previous un-deaths served the single purpose of foreshadowing what will happen to him. But, it is a most annoying cliffy!

Ok but if R+L=J is true than Jon can't really be dead because what would the entire point of his story arc be? Just like yea, you could kill Dany right now and have Victarion take the dragons back to Westeros but wouldn't that be a wasted hundreds of pages on her arc? I don't think either Dany or Jon will survive the series btw, but I think he has written himself into the corner that he can't kill them until the last novel because it's too much story with no pay-off. They are the only true plot-armored characters. I suppose you could argue that he would be defying convention but truthfully to have so many pages about a character that accomplished nothing to die... the only convention you would be defying would be good writing.

So Jon isn't dead. Maybe maestar Pylos is still there and the world's best healer. Maybe he wargs and either the Old Gods or Melisandre get him back into his body. Maybe Melisandre just casts rezz level 7 at him. Maybe he learns to warg into a person like Bran. His story isn't over. Not because I cannot accept it on emotional grounds, but because I cannot accept it on basic storytelling grounds. Kill Jon right off after he has accomplished something. But you can't set him up in The Song of Ice and Fire to be the other last Targ and potential dragonrider and expect to keep him dead. That isn't defying convention, its just bad writing, and I hope GRRM is above it.

[David Mourning]

I believe that Aegon has been sufficiently foreshadowed as false, so I am not bothered by his appearance much. As for Jon's presumed death... we shall see. Perhaps all the previous un-deaths served the single purpose of foreshadowing what will happen to him. But, it is a most annoying cliffy!

And also, I agree that false Aegon would be acceptably foreshadowed. Maybe he's a Blackfyre or something or just some commoner with Valyrian blood. I just wouldn't think that real Aegon was plausibly foreshadowed to show up so suddenly. And also, I so apologize to the board for totally de-railing a thread that is supposed to be about R+L=J... I go on all kinds of tangents and I hope you forgive me.

[FittleLinger]

Ok but if R+L=J is true than Jon can't really be dead because what would the entire point of his story arc be? Just like yea, you could kill Dany right now and have Victarion take the dragons back to Westeros but wouldn't that be a wasted hundreds of pages on her arc? I don't think either Dany or Jon will survive the series btw, but I think he has written himself into the corner that he can't kill them until the last novel because it's too much story with no pay-off. They are the only true plot-armored characters. I suppose you could argue that he would be defying convention but truthfully to have so many pages about a character that accomplished nothing to die... the only convention you would be defying would be good writing.

So Jon isn't dead. Maybe maestar Pylos is still there and the world's best healer. Maybe he wargs and either the Old Gods or Melisandre get him back into his body. Maybe Melisandre just casts rezz level 7 at him. Maybe he learns to warg into a person like Bran. His story isn't over. Not because I cannot accept it on emotional grounds, but because I cannot accept it on basic storytelling grounds. Kill Jon right off after he has accomplished something. But you can't set him up in The Song of Ice and Fire to be the other last Targ and potential dragonrider and expect to keep him dead. That isn't defying convention, its just bad writing, and I hope GRRM is above it.

The best outcome IMO would be for him to get just wounded and survive it. Plain and simple. Maybe he spends some time in coma, in which he strengthens the connection to Ghost, Bran, and the Old Gods. Then he rises, kills the boy and lets the man be born. But to be honest, with the Varamyr prologue explaining the technicalities of warging, and more importantly death and warging, I think he will spend some time in Ghost and then - I really don't know.

About Aegon - I don't know if there was enough foreshadowing or not, but I have one concern over the somewhat well accepted theory that he is a Blackfyre. I don't mind him being fake, Illiryo's son or whoever, but if he turns out a Blackfyre and this turns out to be important storywise, everybody will be all like, "What? Who were those guys?". I mean I hadn't even heard of D&E before this forum and was perplexed about how strongly people feel about him being a Blackfyre.

Now that I have experience with the forum and all sort of theories, I might have lost my objectivity on the matter and I maybe more or less support the Blackfyre connection, but I remember that initialy I thought it implausible for purely meta-reasons, and I think that's the opinion that matters - the "virgin" one, since GRRM wants the series to be sufficient by themselves. Kinda stupid if it will all make sense if you read some "add-on" books, when the supposedly dead Targ heir is pretty much a major plot point in the series themselves.