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R+L=J v.43


Angalin

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This happens from time to time during a war. King Robb had such a stop in an enemy castle. That is where he met his Queen. Ser Jaime Lannister stopped twice in an enemy castle, Riverrun, once as a prisoner and once as a conqueror. There are a lot of other examples.

You must be kidding. Robb sieged and conquered the Westerling castle, and Jaime hardly had an opportunity to meet anyone from Riverrun while he was in his cell or when he was outside the walls with his army. Can you please elaborate how you imagine that Eddard, hypothetically sieging Harrenhall (and mind you, sieging a castle of that size might be next to impossible), would have met anyone from the castle unless he conquered it? Please, provide textual evidence that Harrenhall was at least sieged, not to mention conquered, during the Rebellion. YOu can’t, because this never happened. Sieging a strong castle is a lengthy process, tying the necessary forces while they are needed elsewhere., and accomplishing such a feat with Harrenhall would have been something that people speak about. Even with Ned’s lack of enthusiasm for telling the events of the Rebellion, don’t you think that Arya would have known that this was the castle her father sieged? And, furthermore, if he did a superquick siege and conquest of it while Ashara was there, don’t you think that Harwin would have had something more substantial to base the gossip on than just the meeting at the tourney?

Are you joking? There is a ton of textual evidence. To give a few examples.

The evidence that there was an affair is Eddard's claim that Jon is his bastard.

The evidence it was with Ashara is the fact that Catelyn, Cersei and half the realm think it was her.

The evidence for when it happened is that it had to have been 9 months or so before Jon was born.

The evidence of where it happened is that Barristan places it at Harrenhal. Eddard was in the vicinity at the right time and Ashara was emphatically not nailed down at Starfall.

Whether Jon is older than Robb or younger is irrelevant but I can assure you you won't find any statement in Catelyn's Game of Thrones chapters that talks in any explicit way about which child was conceived first.

I claim that I am the Pope’s mother, does it make me so?

Catelyn has a clue about the timing of Jon’s conception but not when or where Ned could have met Ashara; the rest of Westeros doesn’t know even that, all they know is that Ned fathered a bastard some time somewhere during the war. It’s such a pretty juicy gossip but it doesn’t mean that anyone bothered to check any timelines.

Also, I think it would be a mistake to equate fathering a child with conceiving a child. Eddard could still be said to have fathered a child after his marriage even if that child was born one day after the wedding.

Nonsense. If you cheat on someone, it’s the moment of the intercourse, not birthing the hypothetical child, that counts. If Ned says that he dishonoured Catelyn and himself, he means that he broke his marriage vows, not that he had sex prior his marriage.

So I should have said 'I figure, based on solid textual clues ...'

I don’t see any.

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I don’t see any.

Yeah you do, you just forgo it because you have a different opinion. It's one thing to point out that there is symbolism and deliberate hints about Jons parentage being someone other than N + ?, but to outright declare that there wasn't reference to solid textual evidence for N + ? is a bit silly. I can't be sure if you're just pretending it's not there or if you actually believe it isn't.

:leaving:

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Yeah you do, you just forgo it because you have a different opinion. It's one thing to point out that there is symbolism and deliberate hints about Jons parentage being someone other than N + ?, but to outright declare that there wasn't reference to solid textual evidence for N + ? is a bit silly. I can't be sure if you're just pretending it's not there or if you actually believe it isn't.

:leaving:

Actually I don't think Ygrain is saying there's no textual evidence whatsoever that supports N+?=J. What Ygrain is saying is that there is no texual evidence that supports/suggests Ned fathering Jon at Harrenhal or that Ned somehow met up with Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal at any point during the rebellion and there really isn't. Which are both points that Ruby Chevrolet was originally arguing so..... :rolleyes:

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Yeah you do, you just forgo it because you have a different opinion. It's one thing to point out that there is symbolism and deliberate hints about Jons parentage being someone other than N + ?, but to outright declare that there wasn't reference to solid textual evidence for N + ? is a bit silly. I can't be sure if you're just pretending it's not there or if you actually believe it isn't.

:leaving:

Go back and read the whole issue. Ruby Chevrolet claimed that Eddard made a stop at Harrenhall to hang out with Ashara, early in the Rebellion, when the Whents were still a powerful, Targ-loyal family. At that point of time, laying a siege to Harrenhall would have been a total nonsense, stopping in for a night is not an option, and coming anywhere its vicinity just to have a hot tryst while your head is the second highest prized would be sheer stupidity. There is no evidence, no inference, that the Rebel EVER fought around Harrenhall, and the fact that Tywin secures it as a strategic point does not mean that Eddard absolutely had to do the same, as it would have largely depended on what forces he had at his disposal, where the enemy forces were amassing and a ton of other factors which we know nothing about, therefore claiming that he "must have" is totally unbased.

To clarify once more my point about Ashara:

The smallfolk at Winterfell do not claim that Ashara must be the mother according to the timelines. They are trying to pin Ned with some woman, and the only person they know him to be romantically involved with is her - at the tourney of Harrenhall. They know nothing about any later encounters that would fit the timeline but hey, the child is there, so, something "must" have happened /wink wink/. That's where the serving maid with her gossip comes in - but Harwin, who had an (almost) first hand account of what Ned was doing during the war, still places the supposed romance at the tourney, not later.

The rest of the Westeros, though, are hadly informed about how old Jon was when he arrived at Winterfell, all they know is that Ned fathered a bastard /wink wink/, that he was romantically interested in Ashara, that Ashara got pregnant and later committed suicide. They jump to the logical conclusion, without actually checking or knowing all the facts.

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Yeah you do, you just forgo it because you have a different opinion. It's one thing to point out that there is symbolism and deliberate hints about Jons parentage being someone other than N + ?, but to outright declare that there wasn't reference to solid textual evidence for N + ? is a bit silly. I can't be sure if you're just pretending it's not there or if you actually believe it isn't.

The conclusion many have reached is that the deliberate symbolism and hints about R+L=J make a far stronger case to the reader than the fact that some in-story commentators seem to think (despite timeline discrepancies) that Ned and various other women were Jon's parents. And since R+L=J and N+?=J can't both be true, one of them has to be a red herring, and if we (reasonably) give this status to the latter option, then all "solid textual evidence" supporting it ceases to function as evidence at all, if indeed it ever did. I'd say that's why many think it's inaccurate to call the dubious nods to N+?=J evidence.

Just curious: it sounds to me like you're admitting that there are hints and symbolism supporting someone other than N+? (by which I assume you mean R+L) for Jon's parents. Is that correct?

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I've never denied the potential for certain things to be construed as symbolism, if thats what you're asking. Or at least, I'm not denying it now.

I was really asking if you thought that GRRM deliberately dropped hints for R+L=J to establish it as some sort of red herring to distract us from the truth...which I guess in that case would be N+?=J. I'm glad you don't think that, because I was gonna go off on how ludicrous such a thought would be. Really, it'd be about the most pointless thing since...hell, I guess nipples on a breastplate.

But now it sounds like you're saying there is no symbolism at all. Gotta say, I find that equally problematic, cause it leaves a lot of things unexplained. I like theories that answer more questions than they raise.

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You mean, apart from making a baby together?

Harrenhal is a logical place for Lord Eddard and Lord Jon Arryn to meet and it is a very important strategic location. It is close to the crossroads where the roads from the Vale and the North meet on their way to King's Landing and the South. That is why Lord Tywin occupied it at the start of the War of Five Kings. So there is every reason to think that both Eddard and Jon passed through Harrenhal or even made it a base for their operations during the rebellion.

As for Lady Ashara, the reasons to think she was there are that Ser Barristan says that is where she was dishonored, Lady Catelyn believes it is possible that Lady Ashara had a baby (Jon Snow) by Lord Eddard nine months after that, and Mr. Martin has said that she was not nailed down in Starfall during the rebellion. For all we know, Lady Ashara went off looking for her brother Ser Arthur, who had recently disappeared with Ser Oswell Whent (of the Harrenhal Whents) and she went to Harrenhal to see if any of Oswell's relatives knew where they were.

Maybe I am misremembering, but did House Whent fight for the Targaryens or the rebels?

Whents are bannermen to Tullys, I believe that they fought with them against the Targaryens so no reason for any rebel army to siege them for their strategical location.

Also since most of the major battles were fought in the Riverlands I don't see how Harrenhal is so strategically located anyway since Riverrun is near enough. Robert was moving North so I don't see any plan transferring the battles south.

About Ashara, do you suggest that because her brother, a KG member, had disappeared during a war and probably doing some KG business, his sister went looking for him as if he was a little child who didn’t come home after playing with his friends?

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To clarify once more my point about Ashara:

The smallfolk at Winterfell do not claim that Ashara must be the mother according to the timelines. They are trying to pin Ned with some woman, and the only person they know him to be romantically involved with is her - at the tourney of Harrenhall. They know nothing about any later encounters that would fit the timeline but hey, the child is there, so, something "must" have happened /wink wink/. That's where the serving maid with her gossip comes in - but Harwin, who had an (almost) first hand account of what Ned was doing during the war, still places the supposed romance at the tourney, not later.

The rest of the Westeros, though, are hadly informed about how old Jon was when he arrived at Winterfell, all they know is that Ned fathered a bastard /wink wink/, that he was romantically interested in Ashara, that Ashara got pregnant and later committed suicide. They jump to the logical conclusion, without actually checking or knowing all the facts.

Add to this the fact that the wetnurse who Ned sent back to WF with infant Jon undoubtedly came from Dorne, possibly even Starfall. She would have become (temporarily at least) one of the small folk of WF. Is it any wonder they would whisper about their Lord's connection with the Lady of Starfall, who so tragically killed herself around the time of the infant Jon's departure from the South? In addition, it's not just the Winterfell people who are trying to fit a round peg into a square hole- Edric Dayne himself tells Arya that Wylla is Jon's mother and that her father loved Ashara, almost in the same breath, demonstrating the confusion surrounding the actual "facts." These inconsistencies are textual clues that something is not adding up.

As for all the rest of Westeros, you're exactly right. Gossip, gossip and more gossip. This is not an information based society and the transmittal of "facts" more closely resembles a game of telephone than actual reporting of news and events. As I said upthread, every aspect of the Ashara as Jon's mother (or even as Ned's lover, IMO) story reeks of red herring.

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Maybe I am misremembering, but did House Whent fight for the Targaryens or the rebels?

Whents are bannermen to Tullys, I believe that they fought with them against the Targaryens so no reason for any rebel army to siege them for their strategical location.

Also since most of the major battles were fought in the Riverlands I don't see how Harrenhal is so strategically located anyway since Riverrun is near enough. Robert was moving North so I don't see any plan transfering the battles south.

Actually we are never told which side the Whents fought on in the rebellion, except for Oswell of the KG. They were Tully bannermen, so it makes sense on the one hand that they would be with the rebels. But they do have the Targ connection through Oswell, so who knows? What we do know is that there was a daughter and four sons (Oswell's nephews) who are no longer alive by the time of AGoT (Catelyn thinks of Lady Whent living in her castle with "her ghosts" which implies that her family is all dead) Possibly the sons fought on different sides of the war and all died, which would explain Lady Whent's low fortunes and obvious depression. Harrenhal is located midway between two of the major battles we know of (Stoney Sept and the Trident) so it is centrally located to the fighting but never once mentioned in any accounts. Almost like people are avoiding it... which since its cursed reputation precedes House Whent, maybe they are :dunno:

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SInce Aegon is such a plot twist, GRRM won't undermine it by saying whether he is true or false - I agree that "mummer's dragon" is not sufficient to claim one or the other and can be interpreted both ways, but in combination with Moqorro's "dragons true and false" which he suppsoedly sees in the flames, I read it as a hint that there will be a false dragon somewhere in the series, and Aegon seems to be the hottest candidate for this, as there are a lot of suspicious details around him.

The most widely accepted theory is that he is in fact a Blackfyre but would that make him a false dragon?

Unless you are suggesting that he is some random boy, in this case he could be the false dragon.

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Actually we are never told which side the Whents fought on in the rebellion, except for Oswell of the KG. They were Tully bannermen, so it makes sense on the one hand that they would be with the rebels. But they do have the Targ connection through Oswell, so who knows? What we do know is that there was a daughter and four sons (Oswell's nephews) who are no longer alive by the time of AGoT (Catelyn thinks of Lady Whent living in her castle with "her ghosts" which implies that her family is all dead) Possibly the sons fought on different sides of the war and all died, which would explain Lady Whent's low fortunes and obvious depression. Harrenhal is located midway between two of the major battles we know of (Stoney Sept and the Trident) so it is centrally located to the fighting but never once mentioned in any accounts. Almost like people are avoiding it... which since its cursed reputation precedes House Whent, maybe they are :dunno:

The wiki names the Tully bannermen that sided with the Targaryens and Whents aren't amongst them. Plus Oswell Whent isn't the lord of the House simply a KG and Hoster's wife was a Whent so I assume they sided with the rebels.

Maybe it isn't mentioned because nothing major happened there during the war. :dunno:

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The wiki names the Tully bannermen that sided with the Targaryens and Whents aren't amongst them. Plus Oswell Whent isn't the lord of the House simply a KG and Hoster's wife was a Whent so I assume they sided with the rebels.

Maybe it isn't mentioned because nothing major happened there during the war. :dunno:

I was just pointing out where the Targ loyalist line of thought may have come from with the Oswell reference. I agree with all of this and would only add that IMO the only thing of importance that happened at HH during Robert's Rebellion is that (most likely) all of the sons of the house were killed, which undoubtedly had an impact on future events, as HH would become the cursed prize and a central location in the WotFK.

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Actually we are never told which side the Whents fought on in the rebellion, except for Oswell of the KG. They were Tully bannermen, so it makes sense on the one hand that they would be with the rebels. But they do have the Targ connection through Oswell, so who knows? What we do know is that there was a daughter and four sons (Oswell's nephews) who are no longer alive by the time of AGoT (Catelyn thinks of Lady Whent living in her castle with "her ghosts" which implies that her family is all dead) Possibly the sons fought on different sides of the war and all died, which would explain Lady Whent's low fortunes and obvious depression. Harrenhal is located midway between two of the major battles we know of (Stoney Sept and the Trident) so it is centrally located to the fighting but never once mentioned in any accounts. Almost like people are avoiding it... which since its cursed reputation precedes House Whent, maybe they are :dunno:

The wiki names the Tully bannermen that sided with the Targaryens and Whents aren't amongst them. Plus Oswell Whent isn't the lord of the House simply a KG and Hoster's wife was a Whent so I assume they sided with the rebels. Maybe it isn't mentioned because nothing major happened there during the war. :dunno:

Given Lady Whent's low fortunes, I presumed that similarly as the Darrys (also Tully bannermen, also with a KG relative), they were on the losing side and lost their properties.

The most widely accepted theory is that he is in fact a Blackfyre but would that make him a false dragon? Unless you are suggesting that he is some random boy, in this case he could be the false dragon.

I think he would count as false in both cases, not being who he claims to be.

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I think this may havre something to do with R+L=J but it may not.

While Ned is in the dungeon, in his last chapter, I believe, it says “When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises." Could this have anything to do with Lyanna's promises, or something else?

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I think this may havre something to do with R+L=J but it may not.

While Ned is in the dungeon, in his last chapter, I believe, it says "When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises." Could this have anything to do with Lyanna's promises, or something else?

I connect this with maybe two things - Lyanna's running off with Rhaegar, which causes a lot of bloodshed (that's assuming Ned knows she did it willingly - has Ned's knowledge on this been adressed, it could make an interesting discussion). And second, he is wondering whether to sacrifice his honor for the ones he loves again, which he ultimately does.

Oh, and one more obvious - he promised to tell Jon who his mother was - he is realizing that he will most probably not have this chance.

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He never promised to do so in the books.

Ah, well, maybe he promised him offscreen or something, after all he wanted Varys to deliver a message, which was most probably this info.

But yeah, point taken, probably not that if it didn't happen in the books. Sometimes books and show get confused...

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