R+L=J v.43

[Fire Eater]

Ah, well, maybe he promised him offscreen or something, after all he wanted Varys to deliver a message, which was most probably this info.

But yeah, point taken, robablyp not that if it didn't happen in the books. Sometimes books and show get confused...

I think Ned did intend to tell Jon the truth when he thought he was old enough.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

The most widely accepted theory is that he is in fact a Blackfyre but would that make him a false dragon?

Unless you are suggesting that he is some random boy, in this case he could be the false dragon.

Just to point out that being a 'mummer's dragon' doesn't necessarily mean a fake dragon. Could just be that he's the dragon of the Mummer. For example Varys was a mummer at one point so saying it's his dragon just might mean Aegon is Varys' candidate and he still might be a dragon. Now black or red and how much of a dragon are questions that remains unanswered.

[FittleLinger]

I think Ned did intend to tell Jon the truth when he thought he was old enough.

Oh yes, I think so too, it's just that it doesn't fit in the context of what we were discussing as he didn't actually promise Jon. Unless he made a promise to himself and he counts that as a broken promise, but that sounds a bit "meh".

[Budj]

I wonder if the promise was to Lyanna to tell Jon who she was when the time was right.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

You must be kidding. Robb sieged and conquered the Westerling castle, and Jaime hardly had an opportunity to meet anyone from Riverrun while he was in his cell or when he was outside the walls with his army. Can you please elaborate how you imagine that Eddard, hypothetically sieging Harrenhall (and mind you, sieging a castle of that size might be next to impossible), would have met anyone from the castle unless he conquered it? Please, provide textual evidence that Harrenhall was at least sieged, not to mention conquered, during the Rebellion. YOu can’t, because this never happened. Sieging a strong castle is a lengthy process, tying the necessary forces while they are needed elsewhere., and accomplishing such a feat with Harrenhall would have been something that people speak about. Even with Ned’s lack of enthusiasm for telling the events of the Rebellion, don’t you think that Arya would have known that this was the castle her father sieged? And, furthermore, if he did a superquick siege and conquest of it while Ashara was there, don’t you think that Harwin would have had something more substantial to base the gossip on than just the meeting at the tourney?

It doesn't really matter how Eddard got into Harrenhal. If the Whents were enemies, he might have just taken it, as Lord Tywin later did with little effort. He might have been welcomed there, as King Robb was welcomed when he arrived at Riverrun at the start of the War of Five Kings. He might have passed through on more ambiguous terms, like Lord Robb passed through the Twins the first time around, or like Lady Catelyn passed through King Renly's camp in A Clash of Kings.

And not that this matters in any way, but Ser Jaime had freedom of the castle for a long time when he was a prisoner at Riverrun, just like Lady Sansa did when she was prisoner in King's Landing. If Sansa was able to sneak away to meet Ser Dontos, don't you think Jaime could have had private meetings when he had freedom of the castle?

I claim that I am the Pope’s mother, does it make me so?

Catelyn has a clue about the timing of Jon’s conception but not when or where Ned could have met Ashara; the rest of Westeros doesn’t know even that, all they know is that Ned fathered a bastard some time somewhere during the war. It’s such a pretty juicy gossip but it doesn’t mean that anyone bothered to check any timelines.

I don't think you should assume that everything someone says is a lie. Sometimes they tell the truth (Catelyn saying Robb is her son). Sometimes they tell half-truths (Cersei says Joffrey is hers and Robert's). Sometimes they lie (Lysa Arryn says the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn).

But Lady Catelyn has no reason to lie to herself about who Jon's mother was. But it's unlikely she never thought about the timeline. She was pretty obsessed with this, and she still thought the mother might have been Ashara long after Eddard was dead. If the timeline was impossible, she was smart enough to have figured that out.

Nonsense. If you cheat on someone, it’s the moment of the intercourse, not birthing the hypothetical child, that counts. If Ned says that he dishonoured Catelyn and himself, he means that he broke his marriage vows, not that he had sex prior his marriage.

If Eddard married one woman while another woman was carrying his child, that would be dishonorable. Particularly since when Catelyn married Eddard, she didn't know that another woman was carrying his child.

And Catelyn didn't feel dishonored because Eddard had a bastard. She felt dishonored because the bastard was brought to Winterfell, which happened after her marriage. She also cared that the bastard was a threat to her children. As another poster pointed out, that threat could be even greater if Jon was older than Robb.

But again, it doesn't really matter whether the Ashara-Eddard tryst at Harrenhal happened before or after the Catelyn-Eddard wedding at Riverrun.

Dragontamer asked:

About Ashara, do you suggest that because her brother, a KG member, had disappeared during a war and probably doing some KG business, his sister went looking for him as if he was a little child who didn’t come home after playing with his friends?

Yes, but on an important mission, not like a little child.

I am working with the limited information we have. We are told that when Rhaegar, Oswell and Arthur disappeared, they couldn't be found. So someone was looking for them, right? And it had to be someone with some rank or with some clout with Rhaegar, Oswell or Arthur. Remember the reasons why King Robb sent his mother with a highborn escort to treat with King Renly?

We know King Aerys didn't go. We know Ser Gerrold Hightower didn't go at first, because when he finally did go, he found them. Who else could pull rank on Rhaegar and his Kingsguard? Maybe there was no one who could do that.

But, if you were Princess Elia and your husband disappeared with another woman while you were still nursing his son and heir, you would probably want to know what was going on. Who could you send? The most logical person would be your lady-in-waiting, Lady Ashara. She's Arthur's brother, so she won't be seen as a threat and they aren't likely to take her prisoner to stop her from talking. And she may be able to talk some sense into her brother.

And where would she go to look for them? Harrenhal is a pretty good place to start because the Whents may know what is going on.

Finally, it works because it ties together so many clues, some more subtle than others. Why do so many people think Lady Ashara and Lord Eddard are Jon's parents? Who "dishonored" Lady Ashara at Harrenhal/which Stark did she "turn to"? Why did she kill herself (for the brother Eddard slew or the child he stole)? How did Jon Snow come to have a Dornish wetnurse if he was conceived when Eddard was fighting further north than Dorne? Why did Mr. Martin think it was important to announce that Lady Ashara was not nailed to the floor in Starfall during the rebellion if she wasn't involved in something important that happened outside of Starfall during the rebellion?

[FittleLinger]

I wonder if the promise was to Lyanna to tell Jon who she was when the time was right.

I considered that too, but when I thought about it I don't think they had much time to discuss into so much detail. I think it was just, "Promise me to raise him as your own", which also implies "Don't give him to Robert" and that was it.

It doesn't really matter how Eddard got into Harrenhal. If the Whents were enemies, he might have just taken it, as Lord Tywin later did with little effort. He might have been welcomed there, as King Robb was welcomed when he arrived at Riverrun at the start of the War of Five Kings. He might have passed through on more ambiguous terms, like Lord Robb passed through the Twins the first time around, or like Lady Catelyn passed through King Renly's camp in A Clash of Kings.

There are key moments in the Rebellion, which are accounted for and somewhat frequently remembered by participants - Battle of the Bells, Ashford, Trident, Siege of Storm's end, Sack of King's landing. And noone ever ever mentions that by the way, "Ned Stark took freaking Harrenhal, the largest castle ever!" Even if he just passed through, though I don't see how since I am almost sure Whents were with the Targs just like the Darrys as someone above mentioned, it still would have been accounted for sure.

Everyone talks about the tourney at HH when they mention HH. Yes, it's virtually possible that there was another passing of both Ned and Ashara through HH, just like it is possible that Jon was planted by aliens - but where do such unsupported assumptions lead us?

It is clearly visible that you want Ned and Ashara to be Jon's parents, but why? Will you lose a massive bet if that's not true? To be honest, I am not a Targ person myself and I see nothing wrong with R+L, and even more - I think if one reads the Tower of the Hand essay, reread the books looking for clues, and reads those threads, anything else than accepting it is pure stubbornness and denial, sorry to say that. Kind of like those people who "believe" 2Pac isstill alive. Deep inside they know it's not true, it's just a permanent state of denial-powered hope for whatever reason.

ETA: I also see it as very anticlimactic. A secret that is clearly a secret and is laid out to be important when revealed, to be, "Your mother was not a commoner, but a highborn lady". Wow, shocker.

[Budj]

Yea, but I'm not sure Ned would really be that distraught over a promise made to himself. If she was really concerned about making sure the baby knew who his mother was it is an extra sentence.

Edited for spelling.

[FittleLinger]

Yea, but I'm not sure Ned would really be that distraught over a promise made to himself. If she was really concerned about making sure the baby knew who his mother was it is an extra sentence.

Edited for spelling.

Yes, as I said, a promise to himself doesn't sound right. But the promise to Lyanna being so detailed and extensive doesn't sound right to me, too, so it might be something entirely else.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Given Lady Whent's low fortunes, I presumed that similarly as the Darrys (also Tully bannermen, also with a KG relative), they were on the losing side and lost their properties.

This brings us back to my earlier supposition that perhaps the sons fought on opposite sides? It would explain how she kept the title if her eldest son fought under the Tully banners, as well as her "ghosts" and low fortunes if some of the others sided with the Targs. There is absolutely nothing in the text to support that though, just my cracked pot :)

[The guy from the Vale]

I think Ned's broken promise refers to his oath of fealty to Robert and his marriage vows to Cat - he committed high treason, after all, and while he didn't betray Cat directly, he made her look like a horned wife.

[-Ghost-]

Yes, as I said, a promise to himself doesn't sound right. But the promise to Lyanna being so detailed and extensive doesn't sound right to me, too, so it might be something entirely else.

Yeah, I think it may be something else too. I just saw another part where it says something like the promises he made to Lyanna and the price he paid to keep them. That sounds like any promise to Lyanna was kept.

[MtnLion]

To clarify once more my point about Ashara:

The smallfolk at Winterfell do not claim that Ashara must be the mother according to the timelines. They are trying to pin Ned with some woman, and the only person they know him to be romantically involved with is her - at the tourney of Harrenhall. They know nothing about any later encounters that would fit the timeline but hey, the child is there, so, something "must" have happened /wink wink/. That's where the serving maid with her gossip comes in - but Harwin, who had an (almost) first hand account of what Ned was doing during the war, still places the supposed romance at the tourney, not later.

The rest of the Westeros, though, are hadly informed about how old Jon was when he arrived at Winterfell, all they know is that Ned fathered a bastard /wink wink/, that he was romantically interested in Ashara, that Ashara got pregnant and later committed suicide. They jump to the logical conclusion, without actually checking or knowing all the facts.

I completely agree, here. It is one thing to see a claimed bastard, and remember Ned had a crush on Ashara at the Tourney at Harrenhal, and put those two things together to make your own story, and quite another to take those rumors and construct a reality. Hearsay is not admissable in court, for a reason.

However, Lady Whent was sworn to House Tully, so Harrenhal is on the side of the rebels during the rebellion. I have no doubt that Ashara is NOT going to make a two month journey through war torn Reach and Riverlands to have a fling with Ned.

[MtnLion]

And where would she go to look for them? Harrenhal is a pretty good place to start because the Whents may know what is going on.

Huh?!? Go to the enemies castle during a war? No likely.

[MtnLion]

Finally, it works because it ties together so many clues, some more subtle than others. Why do so many people think Lady Ashara and Lord Eddard are Jon's parents?¹ Who "dishonored" Lady Ashara at Harrenhal/which Stark did she "turn to"?² Why did she kill herself (for the brother Eddard slew or the child he stole)?³ How did Jon Snow come to have a Dornish wetnurse if he was conceived when Eddard was fighting further north than Dorne?⁴ Why did Mr. Martin think it was important to announce that Lady Ashara was not nailed to the floor in Starfall during the rebellion if she wasn't involved in something important that happened outside of Starfall during the rebellion?⁵

1. Ned didn't find Jon under a cabbage, so there must have been a mother. Who did they know that Ned had associated with, at all, other than Catelyn? Ashara comes to mind, but that does not make the assumption that these people make correct, or even close to correct.
   
2. Someone dishonored Ashara at the Tourney at Harrenhal, two years before Jon was born. That person is not named or even hinted at. Ashara is said to have a stillborn daughter, but what if she had had a boy, adn exchanged it with Elia, so that Elia could present an heir to Rhaegar? That makes beaucoup more sense than the other idea you espouse.
   
3. When Ned returns Dawn to House Dayne, it is after the war. Ashara is dying for news of her BFF Elia, and Ned tells her of the hideous end that they met at the hands of the Lannisters. If Aegon were her child, I see her grief leading to her suicide.
   
4. If Ned is further north fighting while Jon is conceived in Dorne, means someone else fathered the child.
   
5. Ashara needs to be a free person, especially so that the rumors appear to be true. We know so much more about Ned, having had his POV. We know that Ned never ONCE thinks of Ashara, which precludes any type to love affair between them before or after the marriage to Catelyn.
   

[Maxpey]

I know I have been gone awhile, but Holy Christ, I can't believe we are on Volume 43 of this topic.

[Ygrain]

It doesn't really matter how Eddard got into Harrenhal. If the Whents were enemies, he might have just taken it, as Lord Tywin later did with little effort. He might have been welcomed there, as King Robb was welcomed when he arrived at Riverrun at the start of the War of Five Kings. He might have passed through on more ambiguous terms, like Lord Robb passed through the Twins the first time around, or like Lady Catelyn passed through King Renly's camp in A Clash of Kings.

It matters very much, because the different scenarios make Ned’s hypothetical stay at Harrenhall more or less possible. And your example with Tywin taking Harrenhall easily cannot serve as an analogy of hostile takeover, as Whents were a rich and powerful family at that time and their castle would have been way better defended.

And not that this matters in any way, but Ser Jaime had freedom of the castle for a long time when he was a prisoner at Riverrun, just like Lady Sansa did when she was prisoner in King's Landing. If Sansa was able to sneak away to meet Ser Dontos, don't you think Jaime could have had private meetings when he had freedom of the castle?

Jaime had freedom of the castle? He was a prisoner of war, and prior his attempt to escape he was held in comfort as belonged to his status, but he certainly didn’t have a freedom of movement. Sansa was Joffrey’s betrothed at a time and a ward of the crown and a young girl, her position and Jaime’s are uncomparable.

I don't think you should assume that everything someone says is a lie. Sometimes they tell the truth (Catelyn saying Robb is her son). Sometimes they tell half-truths (Cersei says Joffrey is hers and Robert's). Sometimes they lie (Lysa Arryn says the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn).

But Lady Catelyn has no reason to lie to herself about who Jon's mother was. But it's unlikely she never thought about the timeline. She was pretty obsessed with this, and she still thought the mother might have been Ashara long after Eddard was dead. If the timeline was impossible, she was smart enough to have figured that out.

She doesn’t lie to herself but she doesn’t think that it must have been Ashara, either. She has no clue, Ashara is the only name she ever heard, and she doesn’t own a detailed diary for Ned’s (or Ashara’s) movements during the war. She doesn’t have enough information and the thought of this superbeautiful lady whom Ned must have loved so much is distressing for her because it undermines her position, not because of a plausible timeline.

If Eddard married one woman while another woman was carrying his child, that would be dishonorable. Particularly since when Catelyn married Eddard, she didn't know that another woman was carrying his child.

And Catelyn didn't feel dishonored because Eddard had a bastard. She felt dishonored because the bastard was brought to Winterfell, which happened after her marriage. She also cared that the bastard was a threat to her children. As another poster pointed out, that threat could be even greater if Jon was older than Robb.

From both their PoVs combined, both refer to Jon as conceived after they were married. What Catelyn felt dishonoured by is not the point, that is from Ned’s PoV.

But again, it doesn't really matter whether the Ashara-Eddard tryst at Harrenhal happened before or after the Catelyn-Eddard wedding at Riverrun.

It does, for the point made above.

Plus, there is another aspect: if this hypothetical second meeting at Harrenhall occurred, how does Barristan know that Ashara’s child was a stillborn girl, if the rest of the realm think that the child is the very much alive son of Ned Stark? The child would have been born at the time when Barristan was recovering from his wounds after Trident, Ashara was down at Starfall and Arthur Dayne, who would have been a logical source for disclosing such a private information, stacked at ToJ.

I am working with the limited information we have. We are told that when Rhaegar, Oswell and Arthur disappeared, they couldn't be found. So someone was looking for them, right? And it had to be someone with some rank or with some clout with Rhaegar, Oswell or Arthur. Remember the reasons why King Robb sent his mother with a highborn escort to treat with King Renly?

We know King Aerys didn't go. We know Ser Gerrold Hightower didn't go at first, because when he finally did go, he found them. Who else could pull rank on Rhaegar and his Kingsguard? Maybe there was no one who could do that.

And why should anyone need to pull rank over them when all it took was the King’s order? The KG don’t have to be reasoned with, they are sworn to obey the king. Deliver a written order with the royal seal and that does it. You don’t need Ashara for this in the least, any trusted courtier will do.

But, if you were Princess Elia and your husband disappeared with another woman while you were still nursing his son and heir, you would probably want to know what was going on. Who could you send? The most logical person would be your lady-in-waiting, Lady Ashara. She's Arthur's brother, so she won't be seen as a threat and they aren't likely to take her prisoner to stop her from talking. And she may be able to talk some sense into her brother.

And where would she go to look for them? Harrenhal is a pretty good place to start because the Whents may know what is going on.

This point makes more sense. However, it still cannot refer to any textual clue that the “second Harrenhall” ever happened, and even if it did, it leaves open many of the previously covered points, such as Lyanna’s bed of blood, the presence of KG at TOJ while they are supposed to go to Viserys, why Ned claims Wylla as the mother, what are the dangerous secrets that he keeps etc.

Finally, it works because it ties together so many clues, some more subtle than others. Why do so many people think Lady Ashara and Lord Eddard are Jon's parents?

I have covered this in an earlier post.

Who "dishonored" Lady Ashara at Harrenhal/which Stark did she "turn to"?

Still doesn’t rule out Brandon, though.

Why did she kill herself (for the brother Eddard slew or the child he stole)?

I bet on the brother, as it makes sense for all the theories, and doesn’t require Ned to steal a child from his mother, because why should he do it in the first place? He is freshly married, his wife will be mightily offended, why not let the child with his mother? It doesn’t make sense.

How did Jon Snow come to have a Dornish wetnurse if he was conceived when Eddard was fighting further north than Dorne?

The wetnurse probably wasn’t nailed to Dorne, either, and given the location of ToJ, works for R+L, either.

BTW, note that neither Catelyn nor the Winterfell staff ever mention that Jon’s nurse hailed from Dorne, which would have given fuel to the Ashara gossip, therefore it is highly probably that the nurse at Winterfell wasn’t Wylla herself.

Why did Mr. Martin think it was important to announce that Lady Ashara was not nailed to the floor in Starfall during the rebellion if she wasn't involved in something important that happened outside of Starfall during the rebellion?

On that we can agree – unless he was just muddying waters.

However, Lady Whent was sworn to House Tully, so Harrenhal is on the side of the rebels during the rebellion. I have no doubt that Ashara is NOT going to make a two month journey through war torn Reach and Riverlands to have a fling with Ned.

Not necessarily. Darrys were sworn to Tullys, as well, but remained loyal to the Targs.

Agreed on Ashara, though.

[Techelles]

I didn't say either of the things you just said I did. You already know what I really think.

Do I? All I know is that you think Ned is Jon's father. So far I've had no luck in getting you to make any kind of argument or take any clear position on any of the pertinent issues that arise when one bring forth a candidate for Jon's parentage. That's why I keep asking you what you mean. On the one hand you say that certain things are merely construed as symbolism, which implies that the symbolism is in the heads of readers and not part of GRRM's plan. Then when I follow up by asking if you do indeed deny that there is authentic literary symbolism supporting R+L=J, you tell me that you never said that. So exactly what you believe on this matter remains unclear to me.

I'm interested because in the first post that I responded to, it really sounded like you were suggesting that there is genuine evidence for both R+L=J and N+?=J, which is what led me to ask you if this was true, and which, again, your answers have not exactly made clear. Regarding evidence for N+?=J, you said this to Ygrain: "I can't be sure if you're just pretending it's not there or if you actually believe it isn't." The essence of my original post was me saying the same thing to you regarding evidence for R+L=J. I'm simply looking for an unambiguous articulation of your thoughts, and I can't help but wonder why you're so cagey about it.

[Techelles]

Why did Mr. Martin think it was important to announce that Lady Ashara was not nailed to the floor in Starfall during the rebellion if she wasn't involved in something important that happened outside of Starfall during the rebellion?

I'd say because it's likely that Ashara was the one who informed Ned about the location and circumstances of the Tower of Joy. I think it's pretty clear that someone told him about it.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

1. Ned didn't find Jon under a cabbage, so there must have been a mother. Who did they know that Ned had associated with, at all, other than Catelyn? Ashara comes to mind, but that does not make the assumption that these people make correct, or even close to correct.
   
2. Someone dishonored Ashara at the Tourney at Harrenhal, two years before Jon was born. That person is not named or even hinted at. Ashara is said to have a stillborn daughter, but what if she had had a boy, adn exchanged it with Elia, so that Elia could present an heir to Rhaegar? That makes beaucoup more sense than the other idea you espouse.
   
3. When Ned returns Dawn to House Dayne, it is after the war. Ashara is dying for news of her BFF Elia, and Ned tells her of the hideous end that they met at the hands of the Lannisters. If Aegon were her child, I see her grief leading to her suicide.
   
4. If Ned is further north fighting while Jon is conceived in Dorne, means someone else fathered the child.
   
5. Ashara needs to be a free person, especially so that the rumors appear to be true. We know so much more about Ned, having had his POV. We know that Ned never ONCE thinks of Ashara, which precludes any type to love affair between them before or after the marriage to Catelyn.
   

I think as far as the SSM about Ashara goes, it's important to note that the comments were made in 1999 shortly after ACoK was released in response to a leading question about Jon's birthday and Catelyn's suspicion that his conception occurred in Dorne when Ned was returning Dawn to the Daynes. Honestly, I think he just wanted to toss the questioner off that line of thinking and threw a few possibilities out there, including a statement about Ashara being Elia's lady companions "in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar"

To me that says Ashara was in KL at least through the birth of "Aegon" which fits perfectly with the baby swap theory or even with the stillborn daughter conceived at Harrenhal, if you like. But why would a highborn Dornish lady leave KL in the middle of a rebellion and venture into the Riverlands in search of a young lord she had met exactly once? She may have travelled from KL back to Starfall after the baby swap, and encountered (by chance or design) her brother et al at the ToJ. She may even have been instrumental in getting a message to Ned on Lyanna's behalf once he was in the South (ie Storms End), and procuring a ship and wetnurse from Starfall for Ned, HR and baby when they arrived with Dawn. I really don't see how, in the time frame we are given in that same SSM for Jon's conception, we are supposed to think Ashara had anything at all to do with that particular event.

[Alia of the knife]

Does anyone think Ned was relieved for Jon to go to the Wall, because it means Jon is beyond making a claim, or being used to start another rebellion?

I can see Ned viewing the Iron Throne as a negative thing, whereas from the intrigueing things Benjen says about things being different were he his "Father" mplies he might do things different-- like fight for his birthright