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R+L=J v.43


Angalin

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Does anyone think Ned was relieved for Jon to go to the Wall, because it means Jon is beyond making a claim, or being used to start another rebellion?

I can see Ned viewing the Iron Throne as a negative thing, whereas from the intrigueing things Benjen says about things being different were he his "Father" mplies he might do things different-- like fight for his birthright

I think Ned was relieved. In addition to the reasons you cited, I believe that Ned hoped that Jon becoming a member of the NW would protect him from Robert should he have ever found out who Jon really was.

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  1. Ned didn't find Jon under a cabbage, so there must have been a mother. Who did they know that Ned had associated with, at all, other than Catelyn? Ashara comes to mind, but that does not make the assumption that these people make correct, or even close to correct.
  2. Someone dishonored Ashara at the Tourney at Harrenhal, two years before Jon was born. That person is not named or even hinted at. Ashara is said to have a stillborn daughter, but what if she had had a boy, adn exchanged it with Elia, so that Elia could present an heir to Rhaegar? That makes beaucoup more sense than the other idea you espouse.
  3. When Ned returns Dawn to House Dayne, it is after the war. Ashara is dying for news of her BFF Elia, and Ned tells her of the hideous end that they met at the hands of the Lannisters. If Aegon were her child, I see her grief leading to her suicide.
  4. If Ned is further north fighting while Jon is conceived in Dorne, means someone else fathered the child.
  5. Ashara needs to be a free person, especially so that the rumors appear to be true. We know so much more about Ned, having had his POV. We know that Ned never ONCE thinks of Ashara, which precludes any type to love affair between them before or after the marriage to Catelyn.

Good Post!

I don't believe Ashara Dayne is dead (I don't think she's Septa Lemore, either; but I don't think she's dead). It NEVER entered my head that Elia might have had a stillborn daughter and taken Ashara's son as her own.

I don't know if you're right; but I think it's plausible. The only fly in the ointment is that ADWD claims Ashara was dark-haired. Whether Brandon or Eddard fathered the child, the father was likely dark-haired as well. If Jon Connington's Prince Aegon is the child taken away by Varys, where did the silver/blonde hair come from?

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Finally found that New York Magazine interview with Sean Bean that was linked on an earlier version of this thread. Here is the link: http://www.vulture.com/2011/06/sean_bean_on_whats_next_for_ga.html

In it, Bean answers a couple of interesting questions:

But he is calculating, in at least one matter: Jon Snow’s parentage. When it comes to Jon Snow’s mother, Ned is extremely tight-lipped, save for his one terse comment to King Robert. The fandom is teeming with theories that Jon isn’t Ned’s bastard at all.

That’s another twist [to come]. It’s a great conundrum. Who do you think it is?

My money’s on the mother being Ned’s dead sister and the father being Rhaegar Targaryen. If Ned swore to protect his dead sister’s son from his own best friend, the best way of doing that would have been to claim him as his own and take him in.

Ned really knows who [Jon’s parents are], but he can’t let on. That’s why it’s such a moving moment, those poignant scenes I have with Kit Harington [who plays Jon], because I couldn’t say what I really thought. There are so many things I could have said, because there is a love there between the two of them, but I can’t express it as overtly as I can with the other children, who I can hold and kiss. Even if I were his true father, I can’t talk about it for fear of offending my wife, who’s really bitter about this. So it’s really a cruel situation. Through no fault of his own, Ned took on a lot by taking Jon in.

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Is it possible that Lyanna specifically sent word for Eddard to come to ToJ, which is the reason for the small party he travels with and the way they were able to know where this supposedly secret location was? This could also be the reason for the KG knowing/having a strong indication that they would end up not surviving?

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Good Post!

I don't believe Ashara Dayne is dead (I don't think she's Septa Lemore, either; but I don't think she's dead). It NEVER entered my head that Elia might have had a stillborn daughter and taken Ashara's son as her own.

I don't know if you're right; but I think it's plausible. The only fly in the ointment is that ADWD claims Ashara was dark-haired. Whether Brandon or Eddard fathered the child, the father was likely dark-haired as well. If Jon Connington's Prince Aegon is the child taken away by Varys, where did the silver/blonde hair come from?

Ashara's brother Arthur and nephew Edric are described as very fair. In fact Arthur is called "ash blond" which is a bare shade off platinum, so there is fair hair in her family. In the event the father of Ashara's child was a Stark, remember that we don't know anything about their mother. Most of Ned's trueborn children are fair (I think red hair counts as fair?) so there are fair people in the family. There is also the possibilty that someone else entirely fathered Ashara's babe.

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It sounds like you and I get to the same place on the boys' ages, just through different reasoning. It seems we do not know which one is older and it doesn't matter much to theories on Jon's mother's identity as long as we agree they are around the same age.

Actually the ages of the boys matter because it excludes several of the offered possibilites for Jon's mother. Jon had to have been conceived immediately before or shortly after Ned and Cat's wedding. As there is no textual evidence for a second Harranhal, it means that neither the fisherman's daughter (who was said to have been left behind so no she didn't follow Ned) nor Ashara (she may not have been nailed down but I do not see Ned getting to Harranhal because he is the enemy of House Whent at that point, so it is more that it was extremely unlikley that HE would be there not her) are Jon's mother.

ETA: If in fact the Whents were on the rebells' side (the KG connection made me think they were with the Targs) - then it is equally unlikely that Ashara would have been able to get into Harranhal as she was on the enemy's side.

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Does anyone think Ned was relieved for Jon to go to the Wall, because it means Jon is beyond making a claim, or being used to start another rebellion?

I can see Ned viewing the Iron Throne as a negative thing, whereas from the intrigueing things Benjen says about things being different were he his "Father" mplies he might do things different-- like fight for his birthright

I was rumaging through the SSMs yesterday, and noted that GRRM had said something about how we would eventually learn why Benjen took the black. I thought that it may be germane to the plot, at some future point in the story, from the way that he responded.
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Good Post!

I don't believe Ashara Dayne is dead (I don't think she's Septa Lemore, either; but I don't think she's dead). It NEVER entered my head that Elia might have had a stillborn daughter and taken Ashara's son as her own.

I don't know if you're right; but I think it's plausible. The only fly in the ointment is that ADWD claims Ashara was dark-haired. Whether Brandon or Eddard fathered the child, the father was likely dark-haired as well. If Jon Connington's Prince Aegon is the child taken away by Varys, where did the silver/blonde hair come from?

Ah, but what if the mad rapist, who is silver blond, raped her? He may have raped Joanna, as well. I think things will further unravel, but suffice it to say, not even Arthur Dayne was strong enough to stand against Aerys. Just look at what the Lord Paramount of the North suffered at Aerys' hands. Ashara surely would not make an accusation that would lead to a lot of deaths. ;)
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I was rumaging through the SSMs yesterday, and noted that GRRM had said something about how we would eventually learn why Benjen took the black. I thought that it may be germane to the plot, at some future point in the story, from the way that he responded.

Yes such a great point I was thinking that too! The reason Benjen took the black most likely has something to do with Lyanna and Rhaegar aka Jon's mother and father...

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Yes such a great point I was thinking that too! The reason Benjen took the black most likely has something to do with Lyanna and Rhaegar aka Jon's mother and father...

Yes exactly! And assuming he's still out there somewhere, the plot device that keeps him "offscreen" is the same one applying to Howland Reed- he knows too much and must be kept in reserve until the big reveal.

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Yes such a great point I was thinking that too! The reason Benjen took the black most likely has something to do with Lyanna and Rhaegar aka Jon's mother and father...

Yes exactly! And assuming he's still out there somewhere, the plot device that keeps him "offscreen" is the same one applying to Howland Reed- he knows too much and must be kept in reserve until the big reveal.

My opinion is that Benjen knew Lyanna went off with Rhaegar willingly, maybe even suspected she would beforehand. And he was guilty that he never told the truth, that could have saved so much lives and generally history could've gone a totally different way. This guilt made him take the black. Maybe he even coordinated it with Ned - that Benjen will take the kid under his wing in the NW when he comes of age.

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My opinion is that Benjen knew Lyanna went off with Rhaegar willingly, maybe even suspected she would beforehand. And he was guilty that he never told the truth, that could have saved so much lives and generally history could've gone a totally different way. This guilt made him take the black. Maybe he even coordinated it with Ned - that Benjen will take the kid under his wing in the NW when he comes of age.

We know that Benjen and Lyanna would practice with swords. It could be that they were close, and that Benjen accompanied Lyanna to her meeting with Rhaegar. They could have even shared the secret, and had extensive discussions about the merit. This is all conjecture, and I am looking forward to what GRRM wants us to learn about these siblings in the future.
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Yes exactly! And assuming he's still out there somewhere, the plot device that keeps him "offscreen" is the same one applying to Howland Reed- he knows too much and must be kept in reserve until the big reveal.

I don't know if you consider the WOIAF app canon or semi-canon, but according to Benjen's entry, he heard a Man of the Night's Watch speak at the Tourney at Harrenhall and was deeply moved. After RR, with Ned and his wife home and securing continuation of the Stark line, Benjen took the black.

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I don't know if you consider the WOIAF app canon or semi-canon, but according to Benjen's entry, he heard a Man of the Night's Watch speak at the Tourney at Harrenhall and was deeply moved. After RR, with Ned and his wife home and securing continuation of the Stark line, Benjen took the black.

Where is that stated in the books? Really I'd like to know so I can read it lol. Every other source i've read like wiki and so forth say Benjen took the black for unknown reasons. That whole speech at the Tourney of Harrenhall thing would most likely be a red herring if anything I highly doubt his decision was that simple.

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Where is that stated in the books? Really I'd like to know so I can read it lol. Every other source i've read like wiki and so forth say Benjen took the black for unknown reasons. That whole speech at the Tourney of Harrenhall thing would most likely be a red herring if anything I highly doubt his decision was that simple.

It's in the app under the entry for 'Benjen Stark':

"Lord Rickard's.youngest son is present with his siblings at the great tourney of Harrenhal when a brother of the Night's Watch appears to the gathered chivalry to take the black. It is a plea Benjen takes to heart."

The app entry notwithstanding, I dunno... I don't think Benjen's decision to join the NW can be explained entirely by his guilt over his knowledge and/or possible involvement in the Rhaegar-Lyanna affair. Based on how Martin sketches Benjen in GOT -- how he talks about the NW, his comments about how the NW is his family, defending the Wall -- this a crusade for him. Unlike the rest of the realm, this is a necessary calling, especially for a Stark. His comments to Jon about not knowing what he'd be giving up by taking the oat, etc. do not have a double meaning in regards to Jon's royal blood here.

That said, I firmly believe that Benjen knows (knew?) the truth of Jon's parents and has, like Ned lived with this dangerous truth ever since Ned arrived back at Winterfell with a newborn and his sister's bones. My wishful thinking here has Benjen confront Ned about the events down south, Lyanna's death and the baby; whereby Ned admonishes Ben and makes him vow never to speak of it again...all in front of Winterfell's weirwood. Perhaps another vision for Bran?

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That said, I firmly believe that Benjen knows (knew?) the truth of Jon's parents and has, like Ned lived with this dangerous truth ever since Ned arrived back at Winterfell with a newborn and his sister's bones. My wishful thinking here has Benjen confront Ned about the events down south, Lyanna's death and the baby; whereby Ned admonishes Ben and makes him vow never to speak of it again...all in front of Winterfell's weirwood. Perhaps another vision for Bran?

I can definitely see this being the reveal, or at least one of the last big hints before the reveal. Knowing GRRM, it'll probably be left a bit vague or ambiguous and happen right at the end of TWoW...

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I've always suspected that IF Benjen had a hand in helping Lyanna run off with Rhaegar (or at least knowing about it and keeping it secret), the guilt of losing his father, brother, and later sister as a direct result of his (in)actions could explain his choice to take the black...

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I've always suspected that IF Benjen had a hand in helping Lyanna run off with Rhaegar (or at least knowing about it and keeping it secret), the guilt of losing his father, brother, and later sister as a direct result of his (in)actions could explain his choice to take the black...

Hey excellent point. i had never thought of that :) i swear this is the reason I joined this forum, to open my mind more and get great ideas from ppl who could look at something from a different angle than me.

:cheers:

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As a general question, has anyone considered that Selmy was at ToJ? Everyone seems to believe that Howland Reed is the only one alive who knows what happened at ToJ, but even he does not know what happened prior to the ToJ event.

Let me see if i can break this down;

We know that Selmy was at the tourney where Rheagar ran off with Lyanna

Aerys had sent the rest of his KG with Rheagar, save Jaime. (Selmy not in KL)

Rheagar was at the ToJ with all of the KG (3 at least, where are the rest at this time?)

Rheagar leaves ToJ to rally his Southern army and meet Robert at the Trident where he dies. (Selmy is here)

I can't find anything to account for the location of Selmy in all this

This means Selmy knows about the evens leading up to ToJ (R+L theorized marriage and conception of Jon)

So I ask, IF R+L=J does Selmy know if R+L were married? He may not necessarily know that Jon is the child, but if he were with Rheagar prior to him leaving ToJ for the Trident he could provide necessary information regarding Lyanna's pregnancy.

Just to be clear I am not stating that Selmy knows Jon is Rheagar's child, but that he knows the events leading up to Rheagar's departure from ToJ including and marriage or conception that may have occured. If someone with a little more insight as to definite locations of other KG members could provide some clarification on this I would appreciate it.

If I'm a total moron an Selmy was somewhere else please feel free to point it out and mock accordingly.

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