Official Court of Law: Stannis Baratheon

[Sullen]

the question is , why he threatened a prince in the first place? maybe because the prince had abducted his sister?!!

He could not prove Lyanna left unwillingly.

And he still threatened a member of the royal family, which is always a huge no-no.

[Sansa in the North]

1. Not guilty. We can't be certain that Stannis committed these acts, reasonable doubt remains.

2. Not guilty. Joffrey is not the rightful king.

3. 3.1 and 3.2, not guilty. All the rest, guilty.

4. Guilty!

5. Guilty!

I'd like to execute him for the burnings, but it would be more prudent to send him to the wall. He seems to do all right there and he has quite a lot to contribute. So, send him to the wall.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

It's the King's Justice.

King decides what is just and what is not, Brandon's BBQing is perfectly in Aerys's rights... and is also arguably deserved.

Hmmm no because the Kings' first responsibility is to protect their people and provide justice, also threating is not a crime. I am not native English speaker but isn't there an english expression "words don't prove it"? So, it wasn't in Aerys' rights. At least he had to made Rhaegar to retun to KL to answer for his crimes before he condemned Brandon and his BBQing of Rickard was justified too?

[Mikken]

Hmmm no because the Kings' first responsibility is to protect their people and provide justice, also threating is not a crime. I am not native English speaker but isn't there an english expression "words don't prove it"? So, it wasn't in Aerys' rights. At least he had to made Rhaegar to retun to KL to answer for his crimes before he condemned Brandon and his BBQing of Rickard was justified too?

Quite a misunderstanding of Medieval societies. Aerys rights were what ever he could get away with, as King, he could legally do anything. The limit on his power was what would cause his people/lords to rebel.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Quite a misunderstanding of Medieval societies. Aerys rights were what ever he could get away with, as King, he could legally do anything. The limit on his power was what would cause his people/lords to rebel.

Isn't Westeros a fictional society? Because in which society the prince would kidnapped the daughter of a High Lord and he would be left unpannished and /or in which society the King of a dynasty of only 300 years dares to insult two ancient and powerful dynasties of 10000 years? (Adding Durrendons' ages into Baratheons)

[Mikken]

Isn't Westeros a fictional society? Because in which society the prince would kidnapped the daughter of a High Lord and he would be left unpannished and /or in which society the King of a dynasty of only 300 years dares to insult two ancient and powerful dynasties of 10000 years? (Adding Durrendons' ages into Baratheons)

Legally, Aerys can do whatever he wants. Practically, he really shouldn't.

[Penguin king]

Isn't Westeros a fictional society? Because in which society the prince would kidnapped the daughter of a High Lord and he would be left unpannished and /or in which society the King of a dynasty of only 300 years dares to insult two ancient and powerful dynasties of 10000 years? (Adding Durrendons' ages into Baratheons)

The Lineage of the stark family doesn't have anything to do with it, they bent the knee to the Targaryens along with everyone else. When William I conqured england he didn't worry about offending Saxon lords because they might have had a slightly better pedigree.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Legally, Aerys can do whatever he wants. Practically, he really shouldn't.

No I think that legally there are bounds to King's freedom, the protection of their people, the justice in their lands... etc.

I would bring an example from another fictional King character but I don't know if anyone knows about Star Wars comics.

[Starfell]

The Charges against the Defendant, Lord Stannis Baratheon, styling himself King of Westeros, are as follows:-

1. Maleficium:-

Two Counts.

It is alleged that through the agency of the Medium, Melisandre of Asshai, the Defendant procured the deaths of:-

1.1 Lord Renly Baratheon

1.2 Ser Courtney Penrose

By means of the Diabolical Arts.

Dismissal, these charges are covered in part 3 as murder, there is no reason to suspect that the magic used in those assassinations was crimeworthy in and of itself, involving, as it did, only a consentual sexual act between two adults

2. Treason

Two Counts.

2.1 It is alleged that the Defendant unlawfully rose in rebellion against His Grace, Joffrey Baratheon, First of His Name, in violation of his oaths of fealty.

2.2 It is further alleged that the Defendant unlawfully waged war against Lord Roose Bolton, the lawfully appointed Warden of the North.

Dismissal, on grounds of twincest, Joffrey Waters is a bastard and a usurper and Stannis is engaged in lawful rebellion in order to secure a throne rightfully his. By extension, Roose Bolton's appointment to Warden of the North is not lawful

3. Murder.

Six Counts:-

It is alleged that the Defendant intentionally, and unlawfully, killed the following people:-

3.1 Lord Renly Baratheon

Guilty, sentence: Monetary fine due to the extenuating circumstances surrounding the crime, Stannis used the only means available in order to win the battle

3.2 Ser Courtney Penrose

Guilty, sentence: Imprisonment for a period of time to be decided by the court

3.3 Lord Alester Florent

3.4 Lord Guncer Sunglass

3.5 The Lord of Bones alias “Rattleshirt”

3.6 Three unnamed soldiers during the march to Winterfell.

In the 4 above cases Not Guilty as all of these were either criminals being executed or carried out by Queen Sylese without Stannis' knowledge

The last four by means of burning alive.

4. Torture

One count. It is alleged that burning alive, without due process of law, as set out in charges 3.3 to 3.6 above, amounts to torture.

Not guilty, burning is a valid method of execution, and one endorsed by our own esteemed Court

5. Sacrilege

Two counts:-

5.1 The Defendant unlawfully destroyed the Sept on Dragonstone with its statues of the Seven.

5.2 The Defendant unlawfully desecrated Weirwood trees in the North.

Guilty on both charges, sentence: Monetary fine

[Mikkel]

1.1+1.2 Not guilty. The defendant seems not to know of his involvment in the first. In the second he believed the vision given to him by the medium of the victim's death.

2.1+2.2 Not guilty. The defendant is the rightful king of Westeros. The userper Joffrey Waters (henceforth be reffered to as "the userper") is baseborn. The apointment of Lord Roose Bolton was carried out illegaly by the userper's hand, the war criminal Tywin Lannister, lord paramount of the Westerlands, outside of legal framework.

3.1 & 3.2 Dismissed. Repetition of charges 1.1 & 1.2.

3.3 Not guilty. Lord Alestar Florent has taken actions outside of his office's legal limits without consulting his king, therby sabotaging future military campaigns in times of war.

3.4 Not guilty. Lord Sunglass was killed by the defendant's wife, while away at war. The defendant had no contact with either the victim or his (the defendant's) wife prior and during the murder.

3.5 Not guilty. The defendant, as well as the rest of the people present at the time of the murder, were unaware of the replacement of the victim with the intended target of execution.

3.6 Not guilty. The three were sentenced to death for eating human flesh, a crime punishable by death.

4. Not guilty. Execution by fire is a legitamate execution style in both medieval and ASOIAF context.

5.1 & 5.2 Guilty.

Verdict:

Monetary fine.

Agreed on all counts.

[Starfell]

No I think that legally there are bounds to King's freedom, the protection of their people, the justice in their lands... etc.

I would bring an example from another fictional King character but I don't know if anyone knows about Star Wars comics.

That would depend on the King in question. Some have limits on their power, some do not

[Mikken]

No I think that legally there are bounds to King's freedom, the protection of their people, the justice in their lands... etc.

I would bring an example from another fictional King character but I don't know if anyone knows about Star Wars comics.

There was a social understanding of the role of King, but only in England was there any written law limiting the King's power. Law usually came from the King, thus few Kings would limit themselves.

[Dragon of the North]

1.1 - Guilty. Stannis Baratheon and Melisandre of Asshai created a shadow assassin with the intent of murdering Renly Baratheon prior to the beginning of the battle, thus saving Stannis and his men from being slaughtered in the coming battle. Although this act may have saved hundreds of lives who would surely have been killed in that battle, the court cannot ignore the fact that Stannis willingly participated in this act of maleficium.

1.2 - Guilty. The testimony (if it can be called that) of Davos Seaworth, who witnessed the birth of a shadow assassin strongly implies Stannis' direct involvement with the murder of Cortnay Penrose. Other than that, read the argument above, which explains everything else you need to know about this.

2.1 - Guilty. Unfortunately, Stannis is guilty of treason to the Iron Throne. Despite Joffrey Baratheon being a bastard born from incest and in no way related to the Baratheon line, he was the king when Stannis named himself the king, and this means that he did commit an act of treason, although justified.

2.2 - Not Guilty. Stannis declared himself king. He has no reason at all to have to agree with Roose Bolton's rule as Warden of the North. Although he is guilty of treason to the crown, he has already broken away from the crown's rule, and so he is not betraying Roose Bolton because he was never entitled to be loyal to Roose in the first place.

3.1 - Not Guilty. There was a war going on. Stannis killed Renly out of self-defense (Renly was going to destroy him, and no good commander would simply wait around for him and his men to be slaughtered) and furthermore, as they were at war, Stannis killing Renly would be simply one king killing another during a war. If they were not at war, then this would count as murder, but since they were openly fighting oneanother, this makes Stannis not guilty.

3.2 - Not Guilty. Read above argument for Renly.

3.3 - Not Guilty. Firstly, Alester Florent was killed by Melisandre. The entire idea was from Melisandre. Furthermore, Alester Florent could be considered a traitor for going against Stannis' will and attempting to make peace with the Lannisters. And we all know what happens with traitors. . .

3.4 - Dismissed. Queen Selyse ordered Lord Sunglass to be killed. Stannis was away at war while this happened. In no way did he order his men (or in this case, his queen) to burn Guncer Sunglass while he was fighting at the Blackwater.

3.5 - Not Guilty. Stannis did not know Rattleshirt was being burnt. As far as he knew, he was burning Mance Rayder, the King Beyond the Wall, for oathbreaking, a crime punished by death.

3.6 - Not Guilty. They were cannibals. They commited a crime, and that was justice. What would YOU do if your men were eating human flesh?

4 - Not Guilty. Burning is not illegal in Westeros. It was commonly used by King Aerys II as a form of execution, and in this case, Stannis also uses it as a form of execution. In fact, if burning was considered torture, we could easily accuse this court of endorsing torture, as one of the forms of execution is burning.

5.1 and 5.2 - Guilty. There is no denying that he burned weirwoods and septs down. Another interesting note is that him burning the sept at Dragonstone resulted in the death of Guncer Sunglass, covered above.

In the end, Stannis Baratheon is guilty of two charges of maleficium, one charge of treason, and two charges of sacrilege. However, the maleficium was endorsed and caused by Melisandre of Asshai and potentially saved hundreds of lives and the treason was justified, as Joffrey was not the rightful king and by Westerosi laws of succession, the throne should have passed to Stannis. Therefore, Stannis Baratheon, for the charges of sacrilege, must pay a monetary fine to rebuild the sept and regrow the weirwoods, and for treason, Stannis is charged with a prison sentence in a high-security prison for 5 years. This is a very light punishment for the stated charges, but I find them to be suitable for the guilty charges.

[E-Ro]

Aerys burned Innocent people for sexual pleasure, we don't know how many people he burned, but I get the impression that it was allot. FAR more then stannis has burned, as well stannis has only burned criminals. The two are not comparable at all.

[W.Kane]

By which law?

laws of the realm

Traitors to which "king"?

king Stannis.

Stannis beeing the rightful king his highly debatable!

no it is not debatable , we know he is the rightful king and he is still alive and has an army.

The Targaryans have been kings by conquest, and beeing "rightful" kings as long as nobody challenged them successfully.

no they stopped being rightful kings when they completely defeated in battle and flew westeros and great houses sworn fealty to Robert. (means to house baratheaon)

Robert did, but also he was just a traitor and rebell untill he had won his rebellion!

when Robert won, Baratheons became the royal family and Stannis is his heir so he is the rightful king. it doesn't matter if Lanisters or Renly or some people don't accept that , it doesn't change the truth. we are here discussing Stannis action and his action are justified because he is the true king .

As long as neither Cersei nor Jamie openly admit that Joffrey or Tommen are their children instead of Roberts Stannis is nothing more than a traitor who challenges the "rightful heir" - even if we, the readers, know that Joffrey and Tommer are not Roberts Children.

he doesn't need Cersei or Jamie confession , he has enough evidence , but at this point it doesn't matter anymore the war has started.

and the fact that we the reader know , is very important because we the readers are judging his actions .

And also we have Renley claiming the iron throne, Rob claiming independance for the North as well as Balon for the Iron Isles.

pretenders ,so what?

Right now there is no "rightful king" at all, just some claimants.

yes there is , his name is Stannis.

The one who will win these challenge will be rightful king.

Stannis is the rightful king but he just needs to win the throne to make it official (LOL).

Then!

[Sullen]

Aerys burned Innocent people for sexual pleasure, we don't know how many people he burned, but I get the impression that it was allot. FAR more then stannis has burned, as well stannis has only burned criminals. The two are not comparable at all.

It is not comparable for the huge majority, indeed.

Brandon's execution is a different story though.

[Sullen]

*text*

Stannis's evidence amount to "The children are of a different phenotype". It is not evidence of bastardy and certainly not a reasonable cause to crown himself and declare war to the IT.

He technically is the rightful king, but even he doesn't hold proof of it other than some Red Priestess saying he is and some flimsy excuse about hair colour.

[W.Kane]

He could not prove Lyanna left unwillingly.

And he still threatened a member of the royal family, which is always a huge no-no.

we can't be sure about the first part because he wasn't given the chance to prove it.

about the second part , maybe you are right. maybe he crossed the line. (I can't decide)

[MotherAnduin]

Dunk hit prince Aerion and the lawful punishment was to lose his hand and foot. Cersei claimed that Arya should lose her hand for striking Joffrey. As Brandon never hit Rhaegar, he should not be held accountable. At worst, his offending part, the tongue should be removed. Killing him was not justice. Killing Rickard was even more wrong.

[E-Ro]

I still don't see the Stannis aerys comparison. This court would have to be out of its mind to convict Stannis of any of those crimes except sacrilege. Everything he has done can be chalked up to the law or self defense.