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Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone


J. Stargaryen

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That's true, I had noticed that then forgot.

Still I have tried to think of another instance in the book where one of the surprises was proceeded by so many hints and clues - GRRM doesn't seem to do that.

I know I'm simplifying things, but GRRM's style seems to be to mislead and surprise - he does not want you to know what's coming up. I realize that's just his overarching m.o. and maybe the surprise is that in that one instance he does drop a few bread crumbs in the forest first.

And one more thing, the mystery of Robert's children does not make it through the first book - it's blatantly obvious. Jon Snow's parentage if different from what's stated is more subtle by several orders of magnitude.

Jon's parentage seems more obvious than it is because it's been kicked around for years, and dozens and dozens of clues have been aggregated and discussed to death. That's all it is.

One more thing: why is Cersei referred to throughout the books as Cersei Lannister? I don't think she's called Cersei Baratheon anywhere in the books - and ASOIAF is supposed to be so real.

It's not uncommon at all for queens to continue to go by their maiden names even in our own history. Ever hear of Anne BOLEYN? How about Jane SEYMOUR? Or Elizabeth WOODVILLE? Or the lesser-known Anne NEVILLE? It also goes for their places of origin: Catherine of Aragon, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Anne of Bohemia, etc.

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That's true, I had noticed that then forgot.

Still I have tried to think of another instance in the book where one of the surprises was proceeded by so many hints and clues - GRRM doesn't seem to do that.

I know I'm simplifying things, but GRRM's style seems to be to mislead and surprise - he does not want you to know what's coming up. I realize that's just his overarching m.o. and maybe the surprise is that in that one instance he does drop a few bread crumbs in the forest first.

And one more thing, the mystery of Robert's children does not make it through the first book - it's blatantly obvious. Jon Snow's parentage if different from what's stated is more subtle by several orders of magnitude.

One more thing: why is Cersei referred to throughout the books as Cersei Lannister? I don't think she's called Cersei Baratheon anywhere in the books - and ASOIAF is supposed to be so real.

If you think this is the theory with the most evidence, of course it isn't going to seem like GRRM drops as many clues elsewhere.

Confirmation of C+J is exactly the point. We know for a fact that the appendix lies. Joff, Myrcella and Tommen are not Baratheons, yet the appendix lists them as such.

I'm not sure what you mean by your last point, but apparently it was an option for Cersei to keep her house name. My guess is she considered Baratheon a step down from Lannister.

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It's not uncommon at all for queens to continue to go by their maiden names even in our own history. Ever hear of Anne BOLEYN? How about Jane SEYMOUR? Or Elizabeth WOODVILLE? Or the lesser-known Anne NEVILLE? It also goes for their places of origin: Catherine of Aragon, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Anne of Bohemia, etc.

C'mon, that's just to keep them all straight, otherwise you'd have 15 Anne's or something silly.

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You said it was implausible for a queen to still be known by her maiden name, and I gave several historical examples that show otherwise.

Your example doesn't hold. Henry was never called Henry Tudor, he's Henry the VIII. King Robert was frequently referred to as Robert Baratheon and Myrcella, Joffrey & Tommen were clearly referred to as Bartheons.

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Your example doesn't hold. Henry was never called Henry Tudor, he's Henry the VIII. King Robert was frequently referred to as Robert Baratheon and Myrcella, Joffrey & Tommen were clearly referred to as Bartheons.

How do the examples not hold, exactly? Seems pretty clear cut. There's really no need to deny a perfectly good counterargument. Not that it's a major point, anyway.

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Your example doesn't hold. Henry was never called Henry Tudor, he's Henry the VIII. King Robert was frequently referred to as Robert Baratheon and Myrcella, Joffrey & Tommen were clearly referred to as Bartheons.

Your point was that it was real-world implausible for Cersei to retain her maiden name. I pointed out otherwise. I'm sorry if this offends you, but ... get over it.

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Another potential parallel between the blue rose and Jon Snow that occurred to me a while back is the inherent dual nature in a "winter rose." Much like Jon is the combination of ice and fire, the blue winter rose seems to thematically unite death and life with its very name.

Though you can get pretty specific with flower symbolism, in general they represent life. On the other hand, in ASoIaF, not only is winter associated with death, but so is the color blue, via the eyes of the Wights and White Walkers, as well as a particular Ned passage:

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

Actually, it could very well be argued that the blue roses are symbolizing death in almost all of their mentions. And, if this is the case, it would seemingly negate what I said in the first paragraph. But there you go. :) On the other hand, this could simply be a byproduct of Ned thinking about blue roses and his dead sister at the same time.

In either case, it seems like Jon is being associated with winter and death. It's just a matter of whether or not we can tack on life and spring/rebirth, etc. as well. The death and rebirth angle would certainly reinforce some of those other messianic overtones that have been noted.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Though I haven't edited the section on Dany HotU vision, I certainly intend to based on the revelations made by danm_99, Newstar, DP and everyone else in the Sweetness as a Negative... thread. I highly recommend reading it.

In effect, I will just tack it on to what I wrote, minus my interpretation of "sweetness." More or less, what I think it means is that whatever Jon becomes – King, AAr, etc. – will ultimately be bad news for Dany. Though there are other tantalizing possibilities; e.g., Jon ... filled the air with death.

One other point, which I just made in another thread, is that it might be more accurate to say that the blue rose symbolizes the truth of Jon Snow's identity than making the blanket statement that it symbolizes him. In other words, the blue roses tell us about his mysterious past and possibly his future, but not about who he is or has been during the course of the series; i.e., Ned's bastard son and member of the NW.

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  • 3 weeks later...
A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

Collectively we've come up with a few different interpretations of this line and I've just thought of another possibility. It's nothing too fancy, but I wondered if there might be a connection between this line and the name of our other favorite potential protagonist; Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen.

I'm not sure exactly what it would mean, except to suggest Jon's birth. Not necessarily when Ned arrives either. Just in general. The same way that Lyanna's "bed of blood" doesn't mean Jon had just been born, though it can't be ruled out. Due to her fever, I think it likely that Jon was, give or take, a week old when Ned arrived.

AGoT, Eddard I:

The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes.

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Great job on the post, as a big fan and avid supporter of the Jon Snow Theory I appreciate the breakdown of the blue rose and the correlation btw btb with Jon Snow. But you mentioned somewhere on the post it would be bad for Dany, why so?

Thinking it had to do with the smell of sweetness being tied to death. So if she is smelling sweetness, it may be the place of her death? I didn't read the entire sweetness link but it is on this page.

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Great job on the post, as a big fan and avid supporter of the Jon Snow Theory I appreciate the breakdown of the blue rose and the correlation btw btb with Jon Snow. But you mentioned somewhere on the post it would be bad for Dany, why so?

Thanks. :cheers:

Thinking it had to do with the smell of sweetness being tied to death. So if she is smelling sweetness, it may be the place of her death? I didn't read the entire sweetness link but it is on this page.

Basically this, but it's more than just the smell.

I highly highly recommend that anyone interested in the series read the Sweetness as a Negative in ASoIaF... thread.

Here is a portion of the OP of that thread:

In ASOIAF, though, "sweetness" and "sweet" are very strongly linked with treachery and deceit (covering up foulness), poison, sinister people, and death, and this is especially true of Dany's arc.

It's useful to look at the many, many instances where "sweet" arises in a context associated with death, poison, deceit, treachery, covering foul smells, or in another negative context.

"A foul, sweet smell rose from the wound..." (Drogo's death)

"There was a smell of death about that room; a heavy smell, sweet and foul, clinging."

"[ser Willem] never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odour."

"If you would savour the sweet taste of the fruit, you must water the tree." "This tree has been watered with blood."

Sweetrobin

Raff the Sweetling

Sweets

Cersei ("My sweet sister")

"The smell of [Jorah Mormont's] sweat was an earthy answer to the sweet perfumes that drenched the Astapori."

"The wizards were beckoning her with voices sweeter than song. She ran from them, Drogon flying back down to her."

"Beware the perfumed seneschal."

"'The Qartheen themselves seem sweet enough to my nose.' 'Sweet smells are sometimes used to cover foul ones.'"

"'Sweetness cloys. Tart fruit and tart women give life its savour.' Xaro took another bite, chewed, and swallowed."

"'This is a sweet city,' Quentyn agreed. Sweet enough to rot your teeth."

“If Daenerys is no more than a sweet young girl, the Iron Throne will cut her into sweet young pieces.”

Dany is addressed as "sweet queen" by untrustworthy people.

The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter.

Marillion has a "sweet" tenor voice.

"Ser Gregor does look lonely," said Tyene in her sweet septa's voice.

Joffrey sings for Sansa as they ride together in AGOT, "his voice high and sweet and pure."

Joffrey tells Sansa "Your sweet words have moved me."

Cersei thanked Sansa sweetly for confessing her father's plans in AGOT.

Margaery smiled sweetly at the PW feast.

"Lord Ramsay is a...a sweet man."

For the sweet each guest was served a skull of spun sugar. When the crust was broken, they found sweet custard inside.

There are many more examples in that very informative thread. Seriously, read it. :)

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Thanks. :cheers:

Basically this, but it's more than just the smell.

I highly highly recommend that anyone interested in the series read the Sweetness as a Negative in ASoIaF... thread.

Here is a portion of the OP of that thread:

There are many more examples in that very informative thread. Seriously, read it. :)

WoW, that's all I can say, its all so clear now............

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  • 3 months later...

However, there's one mention of the blue winter rose that you still have to explain: Bael the Bard asking Brandon the Daughterless for a Blue Winter Rose and taking his daughter instead.

Not sure if this has already been suggested, but if Rhaegar believed - as Dany's vision suggested - that "the dragon has three heads" and he needed another child, this part of Bael's story could symbolize Rhaegar purposely seeking his "blue winter rose," i.e. his third child, in the Stark line. He didn't take the daughter instead of the blue winter rose, he took the daughter in order to get it.

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Not sure if this has already been suggested, but if Rhaegar believed - as Dany's vision suggested - that "the dragon has three heads" and he needed another child, this part of Bael's story could symbolize Rhaegar purposely seeking his "blue winter rose," i.e. his third child, in the Stark line. He didn't take the daughter instead of the blue winter rose, he took the daughter in order to get it.

Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

That's an interesting observation – that Lyanna was the third-born Stark of her generation. 3 is closely associated with the feminine in certain religions like Wicca and Neopaganism. The Triple Goddess's three parts are – stop me if you've heard his before – the Maiden, Mother and Crone.

Jon was also Rhaegar's third-born child and second son.

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  • 1 month later...

Almost everyone is familiar with the Rosetta Stone. It was the key that unlocked the written language of ancient Egypt; aka, the hieroglyphs. In much the same way, the oft mentioned pale blue winter roses seem to unlock the true story of Jon Snow's background, and perhaps even his eventual destiny. That is, once you realize that the roses serve as a symbolic placeholder for Jon.

My intent here is to show how and why Jon fits into the story whenever and wherever the winter roses show up. I am not claiming that my translations are 100% accurate or even 100% complete. That said, I think some of you may be surprised by how seamlessly blue winter rose becomes Jon Snow, in certain cases.

Now, Jon is not the only character in the series associated with the roses. Aside from the Bael the Bard story, there is Lyanna and the entire set of events beginning with the Tourney at Harrenhal in the Year of the False Spring. However, none of those characters are alive at the beginning of the story; Jon is. Further, being associated with the roses is not the same thing as being symbolized by the roses. Assuming that the roses symbolically represent Lyanna makes the appearance of them together redundant. However, If they symbolically represent someone else, say Jon Snow, then the appearance of the roses conveys additional – symbolic – information.

One reason I'm so fond of this idea is that I've tested it against things we already know, or at least assume. The method I use is to simply: 1) start by supposing that any mention of the blue roses is a symbolic reference to Jon Snow, then; 2) check to see if that fits with things we already know, or assume; e.g., Lyanna + blood + winter roses actually corresponds to a known/assumed event - Lyanna gave birth to Jon. (Try this with the other Stark children and see if you can get the same results.) The only place where this doesn't exactly work is the Bael the Bard story. I think that serves a different purpose, which I will explain at the end.

Before you get started, it's worth considering what blue roses typically symbolize. Though there are more extensive explanations to be found, here is one that covers a couple key points:

---

The first five excerpts have been grouped together because each example contains blood and roses. The blood could symbolize a number of different things. For example, childbirth (bed of blood/bloody bed). Lyanna could be seen as a sort of blood sacrifice required for Jon's birth, or 'forging' if he is Lightbringer -- only death may pay for life. Or, it could even be a reference to the Targaryen House words, fire and blood.

1) From Eddard I:

Blood and roses is simply a reference to the birth of Jon. As GRRM lets us know on more than one occasion, giving birth is bloody business, which accounts for the blood. Jon being the child that was born, accounts for the roses. The entire line can be interpreted as The room smelled of childbirth, and Jon is the child who was born. Or, The room smelled of Jon's birth. Or the fallout from Jon's birth, etc.

Ned's promise, presumably to take care of Jon, allows Lyanna to give up her hold on life, which ends with the dead and black rose petals spilling from her palm. Interestingly, dead and black is how we seemingly leave Jon in ADwD, as a group of his black brothers have carried out an assassination attempt on him.

So in the ToJ, "Promise me, Ned" leads to "dead and black" rose petals. Making the promise -> d&b rose petals.

After the ToJ, "Promise me, Ned" leads to a "dead and black" Jon Snow. Fulfilling the promise -> d&b Jon Snow.

Another interpretation here that I've discussed with MtnLion is that the dead and black refers to Lyanna and Jon; i.e., Lyanna is dead, and Jon is black. MtnLion reminded me, as Jon did Robb, that black was always Jon's color.

Before I address the last part, I would like to reference a passage from ADwD:

Now, assuming that "flowers" = blue winter roses and blue winter roses = Jon, well, try translating this on your own:

“I bring her flowers when I can,” he [Ned] said. “Lyanna was... fond of flowers.

Fond, ... The word spoke volumes.

Note that Lord Eddard and Ser Barristan, probably the two most honorable men in the series, men for whom lying does not come easy, both use the word "fond" to tell a soft version of the truth to their lieges. Each man can rest easy that night, with a clear conscience.

2) From Eddard X:

Mentioned here are: rose petals - Jon; blood - childbirth; death - Lyanna's. Which could be another reminder that

Jon's birth led to Lyanna's death.

Continuing with this theme I'm reminded that Dany's "middle" name is Stormborn, which connects "storm" with "birth." So, a storm of [blue] rose petals would just reinforce the notion of Jon's birth.

An alternate take for this passage, which is arguably more consistent with the text, is that "storm" and "blood-streaked sky" are referencing the battle between the Northmen and KG. The battle itself is a result of the KG upholding their vow to protect the king. The king is Jon, and Jon is the blue winter rose.

MtnLion has come up with a take which had not occurred to me. That this bit of text represents the baby Jon crying, which he explains here and here. I add my two cents here.

3) From Eddard XIII:

Again, Lyanna, blood, and the crown of winter roses. Unique to this occurrence, though, is that Lyanna's blood is coming from her tears.

On their own, tears usually represent sadness. Blood is tricky, because it can represent life or death. In Lyanna's case, it might even represent both, as Jon's life was the root cause of her death. You could almost say that Lyanna was a sort of blood sacrifice. (For you Jon as Lightbringer, Lyanna as Nissa Nissa fans.)

Tears of blood is also, maybe most notably, a form of the stigmata. Now seems like a good time to remind everyone that Lyanna is wearing a crown of roses, and roses usually come fully equipped with thorns. So, stigmata, crown of roses/thorns. Messianic overtones, I say.

4) Let's revisit The Moment When All the Smiles Died, from Eddard XV, because there is an addendum which belongs here, I think.

When I read this passage, I see an incredibly strong metaphor for the story of Jon Snow's conception. Assuming my interpretation is correct, I believe it constitutes some of the best R+L=J evidence out there. Here's what I mean.

The story of Jon's conception (re: the metaphor) begins when Rhaegar urges his horse past Elia, but I'm not going to start there. I want to start with the last part describing the crown. It's a crown of blue winter roses. This is important to understand because I believe that blue winter roses symbolize Jon Snow. Now, not fundamentally important to the theory, but interesting to note, is that the logical continuation of this metaphor - that is, a crown of blue winter roses - hints at Jon's royal blood and/or his royal future the same way a crown of golden lions would for a Lannister, or a crown of silver trout would for a Tully.

Okay, now back to the beginning. Like I was saying, the 'story' begins when Rhaegar urges his horse past Elia. This act mirrors his later romantic snub of her. In both cases he does so in favor of Lyanna. In other words, he twice chooses Lyanna Stark over his own wife; first when naming the QoLaB at Harrenhal, and then when he makes off with her for the ToJ.

The first choice is made when Rhaegar lays the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. An act which seems to simultaneously predict and confirm R+L=J. The item itself and its placement seem highly suggestive to me. The aforementioned crown of blue winter roses - aka, Jon Snow - is placed in his mother's lap. You guys know where babies come from, right? So if what I've said above is correct, the metaphor seems to say that Rhaegar spurned Elia in favor of Lyanna. He then placed Jon Snow in Lyanna's lap womb.

For bonus points, the description of the crown as a 'laurel' works as a clue that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. The word laurel literally describes the crown, while it figuratively represents honor. The notion of Rhaegar honoring Lyanna by placing Jon Snow in her lap probably contradicts the idea of Jon's bastardy. If not, giving birth to Jon Snow could turn out to be a tremendous honor, provided his character turns out to be the king/hero/messiah figure he's in line to be. Again, not necessarily of fundamental importance, but something worth noting.

Here is the rest:

Since this is an extension of the previous example, we're going to apply the symbolism in the same way. So, Ned grasping the "

flowery crown" symbolizes Ned accepting responsibility for, and taking possession of Jon.

The thorns likely represent the consequences for doing so, which Ned references; e.g.,

- Eddard II

Or, another possibility is that the thorns, which are causing bloodshed, represent the inherent danger that comes along with Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's (legitimate) son. Jon, if legitimate, would be in the same position – and therefore potential danger – that Aegon was before him. Not to mention the eight deaths that already took place at the ToJ.

The second bolded part might be nothing, or it might be a reference to "new baby smell."

5) From Theon XI, ACoK:

Theon describes Lyanna's gown as spattered with "gore," which means bloodshed. To go along with the

blood, Lyanna is also wearing the crown of pale blue roses.

The word "gore" is usually associated with violence, which suggests a mystery; i.e., how come Lyanna's gown is spattered with gore?

Because we know Lyanna died from a fever, I think we can rule out "gore" as a description of some violence done to her. However, I suppose it's possible Ned transferred some of the blood, etc. from the battle with the KG just prior. It's also possible that the "gore" represents the violence and death that happened as a result of R&L running off together – which also resulted in Jon.

But I think most of us believe that the answer is more directly connected to Jon's birth. Which, if we apply the same symbolism we've been using throughout, then the question raised by Lyanna's bloody gown is answered by the other item she is wearing: the crown of winter roses.

Finally, gore + crown of roses reminds us of the first example:

- Eddard I

Something we don't get in the other passages is that Lyanna is wearing a white gown. This is new, and therefore possibly conveys a different piece of information than the other winter rose passages. I don't know about the rest of you, but "white gown" makes me think of a wedding dress. Which fits with the rest of the clues suggesting that R&L were married.

It also possibly communicates ideas like purity, innocence, virginity- which, again, has messianic overtones. Not that I believe Jon is the result of an actual virgin birth, but this might hint at his resurrection, for example. Not to mention his overall destiny as a savior, maybe the savior.

---

From Eddard XII:

This is from the meeting between Ned and Cersei in the godswood of the Red Keep. A meeting which is motivated by Ned's intent to confront Cersei regarding her bastard children, and his desire to protect them. Whether in Ned's thoughts or the conversation with Cersei, almost the entire scene focuses on children. Here are some excerpts to provide context before I get to the blue rose analysis.

Cersei replies to Ned's accusation of incest by stating that they had been doing it since they were children, and follows up by telling the story of her birth, with Jaime holding onto her foot.

The next paragraph begins with "The seed is strong", and is all about the Baratheon-Lannister pairings which had always resulted in the gold yielding before the coal. Ned lists five offspring here. Again, children.

The next paragraphs are more of the same:

Finally, we come to the part about the roses:

Following one short paragraph, the next ones mention Joffrey, Jon, Cersei fleeing with her children, Rhaegar's children.

So, the scene in review:

  • Ned & Cat and their children
  • Cersei & Jaime and their children
  • Baratheon-Lannister couplings and their children
  • Rhaegar and his children
  • Lyanna and pale blue roses her child

The point being, that after all the talk of children, it's not a coincidence that when Cersei says Lyanna's name Ned reflexively thinks of pale blue roses, because blue roses are the symbolic placeholder for Lyanna's child.

Though it works in other places as well, Apple Martini's "coping mechanism" comment seems especially apt here.

Dany's HotU vision, from Daenerys IV:

Initially I dismissed this soley as GRRM's way of establishing a direct link between Jon and the blue rose; i.e., without Lyanna as a middleman (middlemaid?). However, I think there could be a little more to it, or perhaps even a

lot more to it.

"Chink," in this instance, literally means things like crack or opening. But of course there is the phrase "a chink in the armor." And a chink in your armor makes you vulnerable to attack, which has interesting ramifications for the NW at large. But if we're looking for a specific event, Jon was attacked near the end of ADwD. Which means he was "vulnerable" to attack, prior to it happening.

The fact that this assassination attempt was carried out by some of his black brothers would seem to strengthen the connection to this specific incident, since attacking your Lord Commander could result in the use of words that are synonymous with "chink"; i.e., crack, fracture, break etc. So, maybe oath breaking, and/or fracturing/breaking/cracking (aka, dividing or bringing about the end of) the NW itself, which in turn could break and/or bring down the Wall, if Old Nan is to be believed.

- Old Nan; ASoS, Bran I

Also rather interestingly, a "chink" often lets in light; from the dictionary widget on my computer:

When I read the word light, -- especially in relation to Jon Snow -- I almost automatically think of Lightbringer. A connection that is possibly alluded to in some of the other blue rose symbolism. Assuming I've got the right idea so far, here is a possible translation:

A blue flower grew1 from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.2

Jon fulfills his destiny, becoming the prophesied hero1 -- AAr/tPtwP/LB(?) -- following, and as a direct result of, the (successful?) assasination attempt in ADwD. Which itself is the result of, or may result in, the division and eventual, though perhaps temporary, dissolution of the NW. -Thereby ending winter and beginning spring.2

The fact that Jon is symbolized by the winter rose, means that he can bloom or "grow" during the winter, which is exactly what Westeros is going to need from their promised hero. After all, a hero symbolized by a rose that can't survive the winter would seem to lack the symbolic qualifications for the job.

1 & 2 are bolded as they seem to work in tandem to signal the end of winter/start of spring; e.g., "A blue flower grew [...] and filled the air with sweetness." -symbolically relevant beyond just the names of the seasons. By any definition, the end of winter/beginning of spring is supposed to be a good thing for the humans, and the word "sweetness" itself reaffirms that idea.

Though certainly not mutually exclusive to the above interpretation, I would like to specifically point out that blooming flowers are identified with the spring season, which itself is symbolic of "rebirth." So, the line as a whole could be read as foretelling of Jon's literal rebirth following his actual death, at the hands of some brothers of the NW.

The actual death/literal rebirth -- aka, Messianic -- angle implied here is also possibly hinted at in a couple of other blue rose scenes. For example, Lyanna's crown of roses, which might remind of Jesus' crown of thorns, since roses come equipped with them. In fact, when Ned reaches for the crown of winter roses in Eddard XV, he finds that there are thorns hidden beneath the rose petals. In Eddard XIII, Lyanna's statue cries tears of blood, which is one version of the stigmata. So, this is almost starting to look like a pattern. As I tend to think it does when the same idea is hinted at on multiple occasions.

Sweetness as a Negative in ASoIaF... A must read thread for anyone who has wondered at the meaning of the blue flower in Dany's HotU vision. The gist of it is that "sweet" and its variants are often used ironically, especially in Dany's case. So, if the other parts of my speculation about this line are correct, Jon fulfilling his destiny will likely be bad news for Dany.

As previously mentioned, the "...from a chink in a wall of ice, ..." part could also tie into, or hint at, Lightbringer.

Yolkboy has posted some analysis suggesting that the "chink" in the Wall is an ice cell, and that certainly makes sense.

---

Lastly, there is the Bael the Bard story. If Jon is supposed to be the blue winter rose, how does he fit in there? Quite well, actually. Rather than quoting the whole thing I'll repeat the analysis I've previously given, because it's pretty simple: the story is about a Stark daughter who gives birth to a son. Does that sound like anyone we know? There's more to it, actually.

  • Bael is the King-beyond-the-Wall ~ Rhaegar is the crown prince
  • Bael styles himself as a bard ~ Rhaegar is a well known harpist
  • Bael steals the Stark girl ~ Rhaegar 'steals' Lyanna
  • Bael leaves a winter rose in place of the Stark girl ~ Rhaegar gives Lyanna a crown of winter roses
  • The Stark girl gives birth to a son ~ Lyanna gives birth to Jon
  • The Stark girl eventually dies ~ Lyanna dies in the ToJ

Did I forget anything? Well, you get the idea.

I think the BtB story is meant to tell us that Jon's Stark lineage derives from his mother, not his father as we have been led to believe. Whether you feel as strongly about the Jon-BWR connections as I do or not, we can agree that Jon is at least associated with the winter rose. And the rose features prominently in this story which, as I said above, has a Stark daughter giving birth to a son.

This is, of course, the BtB story as it pertains to R+L=J. There are almost certainly other events that are foreshadowed by that tale.

---

If my conclusions are more or less correct, how will GRRM reveal this to the audience? In my opinion, the most clear-cut method of conveying this information is to have Jon eventually adopt the blue rose as his sigil. Since sigils are often used to represent the characters to whom they belong, Jon's use of the blue rose would establish an undeniable link between the two, both real (in-universe) and symbolic (for the benefit of the readers).

Assuming that:

  • Jon does take the blue rose as his sigil, and:
  • GRRM does link his characters with their sigils as specified above,

it seems like my thesis ought to be correct in principle, if not in detail.

---

Thanks for reading.

I don't know how I missed this, thanks to Mtn.Lion, a great read and great analysis as always.

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