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Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone


J. Stargaryen

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Bael takes the Lord of Winterfell's daughter and leaves a blue winter rose in her place, and she returns with a bastard.


Could it be Rheagar took Lyanna and returned her (well, returned isn't exactly the right word) with a bastard, and just takes the rose as his symbol because of that story?


Personally Rheagar and Lyanna seems just too obvious for them to actually be Jon's parents. GRRM likes twists, and wouldn't it be a let down if he reveals its true just like everyone saw coming? i doubt that'll happen.


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She returned with a child that inherited Winterfell down the line. Where is it stated the child was a bastard?



Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents may seem obvious to you, but rest assured there are lots of other people who don't share that opinion. As for GRRM liking twists, yes he does. But all of his twists turn out to have been foreshadowed earlier.


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She returned with a child that inherited Winterfell down the line. Where is it stated the child was a bastard?

Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents may seem obvious to you, but rest assured there are lots of other people who don't share that opinion. As for GRRM liking twists, yes he does. But all of his twists turn out to have been foreshadowed earlier.

:agree:

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She returned with a child that inherited Winterfell down the line. Where is it stated the child was a bastard?

Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents may seem obvious to you, but rest assured there are lots of other people who don't share that opinion. As for GRRM liking twists, yes he does. But all of his twists turn out to have been foreshadowed earlier.

Right. Bael was a wildling and they steal their wives. How did Bael end up with the Stark girl again? :)

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Dany's HotU-vision: A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.



I may approach this a bit too easily, because I'm not one to post elaborate schemes. You mention that a chink is often used as synonymous to crack, fault, or a break, or in the figure of speech: Chink in the armor. Going on that it means that the armor is weak when it is attacked. The following notion you put forth about the assasination attempt is something I find a bit to presumptious.



What I think this basically saying is:


- Jon rose to power when the Wall was at its weakest. And filled the air with death/"sweetness"..



Going over to that Sweetness-thread, this may refer to death..



Then there's this one: A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.


- Jon in a storm of swords, creating a blood-streaked sky, with blue eyes of death.



Put after each other:


- Jon rose to power when the Wall was at its weakest. And filled the air with death in a storm of swords, creating a blood-streaked sky, with his blue eyes of death.


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Daario Naharis says the blue rose cures fevers.


Although that was in the show, i dont remember if he says that in the books.


But maybe its a symbol, a rose that cures fevers (or brings down temperature) and blooms at the beginning of winter. Maybe the undying are showing her a vision of the blue rose, saying "LOOK we have an obscure way to tell you that winter/coldness is coming through a crack in the Wall!"

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<snip>

What I think this basically saying is:

- Jon rose to power when the Wall was at its weakest. And filled the air with death/"sweetness"..

Going over to that Sweetness-thread, this may refer to death..

<snip>

So, you are saying that to Danerys (whose eyes we see this vision through) thinks that death is sweetness. Do you have anything that furthers that approach?

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So, I'm gonna put your theory to test with yesterday episode :devil: :



Daario offered Jon Snow to Dany and she seemed quite pleased with this.



Any interpretations, besides the obvious one :

:smileysex:


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Dany's HotU-vision: A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

I may approach this a bit too easily, because I'm not one to post elaborate schemes. You mention that a chink is often used as synonymous to crack, fault, or a break, or in the figure of speech: Chink in the armor. Going on that it means that the armor is weak when it is attacked. The following notion you put forth about the assasination attempt is something I find a bit to presumptious.

Perhaps, but it was my best guess at the time. I'm not sure I would change anything now, either. Your interpretation seems like a reasonable suggestion, too. I'm not sure it's any firmer than my take, though.

What I think this basically saying is:

- Jon rose to power when the Wall was at its weakest. And filled the air with death/"sweetness"..

Going over to that Sweetness-thread, this may refer to death..

Then there's this one: A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

- Jon in a storm of swords, creating a blood-streaked sky, with blue eyes of death.

Put after each other:

- Jon rose to power when the Wall was at its weakest. And filled the air with death in a storm of swords, creating a blood-streaked sky, with his blue eyes of death.

And you found my interpretation presumptuous? :)

So, I'm gonna put your theory to test with yesterday episode :devil: :

Daario offered Jon Snow to Dany and she seemed quite pleased with this.

Any interpretations, besides the obvious one :

:smileysex:

I think there were a couple of winks to the audience there.

The show version of the rose seems connected to the book version, from what a I can tell. Even the differences are familiar. The blue roses are named

winter roses in the books and dusk (night) roses in the show, though I suspect the latter only applies in Essos. The different names, dusk (night) and winter, are connected in the books by the Long Night, among other things. We're supposed to get another LN/WftD pretty soon, and Jon (the blue rose) will certainly be involved in that.

The other difference is the additional or previously unknown ability to ease fever. Coincidentally – or not – Lyanna had a fever when she died. And she was holding onto dead and black rose petals that had likely been blue when they were living. -Ned imagines a storm of [blue] rose petals in his ToJ dream. So, if only Lyanna had known the roses she was holding onto that whole time could have eased her fever. -might be part of what the writers are going for there. A bit of irony. More importantly though, it's a R+L=J reference in the show for book readers; i.e., fever + blue rose = ToJ, etc.

That's my take, anyway.

---

There are some other things I've found that tie into the blue roses, I think. At some point I'll post more analysis, but I'm not sure if it will be here.

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Perhaps, but it was my best guess at the time. I'm not sure I would change anything now, either. You interpretation seems like a reasonable suggestion, too. I'm not sure it's any firmer than my take, though.

And you find my interpretation presumptuous? :)

I think there were a couple of winks to the audience there.

The show version of the rose seems connected to the book version, from what a I can tell. Even the differences are familiar. The blue roses are named

winter roses in the books and dusk (night) roses in the show, though I suspect the latter only applies in Essos. The different names, dusk (night) and winter, are connected in the books by the Long Night, among other things. We're supposed to get another LN/WftD pretty soon, and Jon (the blue rose) will certainly be involved in that.

The other difference is the additional or previously unknown ability to ease fever. Coincidentally – or not – Lyanna had a fever when she died. And she was holding onto dead and black rose petals that had likely been blue when they were living. -Ned imagines a storm of [blue] rose petals in his ToJ dream. So, if only Lyanna had known the roses she was holding onto that whole time could have eased her fever. -might be part of what the writers are going for there. A bit of irony. More importantly though, it's a R+L=J reference in the show for book readers; i.e., fever + blue rose = ToJ, etc.

That's my take, anyway.

---

There are some other things I've found that tie into the blue roses, I think. At some point I'll post more analysis, but I'm not sure if it will be here.

Yeah, I figured out it was a R+L= J wink in the show but it's was kind of weird to put it in a Daario/Daenerys scene and I'm starting to wonder if D&D are not Jon/Dany shipers especially since the last Harpy's gold poisonous flower could mean Hizdar

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Yeah, I figured out it was a R+L= J wink in the show but

it's was kind of weird to put it in a Daario/Daenerys scene and I'm starting to wonder if D&D are not Jon/Dany shipers especially since the last Harpy's gold poisonous flower could mean Hizdar

I don't think it was weird, tbh. Not all of the R+L=J hints are in Ned or Jon chapters. Also, Dany does see a blue rose in the HotU, so it was consistent with the books in that regard.

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I came up with a question, "Why did they need to include a blue rose for Daenerys in the screenplay?" Apparently the blue rose may be more than symbolism, with an actual blue rose meaning something in particular to Daenerys much later in the story. It must be a fixed piece in how GRRM has planned the ending.


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I came up with a question, "Why did they need to include a blue rose for Daenerys in the screenplay?" Apparently the blue rose may be more than symbolism, with an actual blue rose meaning something in particular to Daenerys much later in the story. It must be a fixed piece in how GRRM has planned the ending.

I came to the same conclusion. All three flowers seem to have a special meaning In Dany's arc: the "Harpy Gold" flower being poisonous...

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"To be sure, she was just as guilty. Dany found herself stealing looks at the Tyroshi when her captains came to council, and sometimes at night she remembered the way his gold tooth glittered when he smiled. That, and his eyes. His bright blue eyes. On the road from Yunkai, Daario had brought her a flower or a sprig of some plant every evening when he made his report … to help her learn the land, he said. Waspwillow, dusky roses, wild mint, lady’s lace, daggerleaf, broom, prickly ben, harpy’s gold … He tried to spare me the sight of the dead children too. He should not have done that, but he meant it kindly. And Daario Naharis made her laugh, which Ser Jorah never did."



The dusky/dusk rose is mentioned in the book as well (interestingly with bright blue eyes associated with the threat from the north). I wonder if GRRM meant to explain that they have a different name in Essos at a later stage. I wonder if the plants are meant to represent people Dany will meet, or maybe the people who will be her allies if she does go north to fight the others. They could be the people who will help her "learn the land". Dusty Rose would be Jon "Pricky ben" could be Brown Ben Plumm, "lady’s lace" could be Sansa, "wild mint" could be LF, Arya likes to fight with "broom"handles or House Broom has green and black colours which is often associated with people around Dany.


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"To be sure, she was just as guilty. Dany found herself stealing looks at the Tyroshi when her captains came to council, and sometimes at night she remembered the way his gold tooth glittered when he smiled. That, and his eyes. His bright blue eyes. On the road from Yunkai, Daario had brought her a flower or a sprig of some plant every evening when he made his report … to help her learn the land, he said. Waspwillow, dusky roses, wild mint, lady’s lace, daggerleaf, broom, prickly ben, harpy’s gold … He tried to spare me the sight of the dead children too. He should not have done that, but he meant it kindly. And Daario Naharis made her laugh, which Ser Jorah never did."

The dusky/dusk rose is mentioned in the book as well (interestingly with bright blue eyes associated with the threat from the north). I wonder if GRRM meant to explain that they have a different name in Essos at a later stage. I wonder if the plants are meant to represent people Dany will meet, or maybe the people who will be her allies if she does go north to fight the others. They could be the people who will help her "learn the land". Dusty Rose would be Jon "Pricky ben" could be Brown Ben Plumm, "lady’s lace" could be Sansa, "wild mint" could be LF, Arya likes to fight with "broom"handles or House Broom has green and black colours which is often associated with people around Dany.

Good catch. Like, maybe a really good catch.

Didn't MMD possess a leaf shaped dagger?

I came up with a question, "Why did they need to include a blue rose for Daenerys in the screenplay?" Apparently the blue rose may be more than symbolism, with an actual blue rose meaning something in particular to Daenerys much later in the story. It must be a fixed piece in how GRRM has planned the ending.

I came to the same conclusion. All three flowers seem to have a special meaning In Dany's arc: the "Harpy Gold" flower being poisonous...

Could be. Else it could lead into an explanation about its Westerosi equivalent.

Iain Glen voice: "Khaleesi, in Westeros it is called a winter rose. Your brother Rhaegar" ... well, you guys know the rest of that story. :)

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Only dusky rose, lady's lace and Harpy's gold made it on to the show, which might indicate the others represent characters who have been cut from the show (like Ben) or may not be as important and those three. So Dany could side with Jon, Sansa and whoever the harpy's gold is (Cersei comes to mind but she is unlikely, maybe Tryion if he sorts out Meereen, the harpy's gold flower actually mostly red with a bit of yellow on the show).


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