Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone

[J. Stargaryen]

Only dusky rose, lady's lace and Harpy's gold made it on to the show, which might indicate the others represent characters who have been cut from the show (like Ben) or may not be as important and those three. So Dany could side with Jon, Sansa and whoever the harpy's gold is (Cersei comes to mind but she is unlikely, maybe Tryion if he sorts out Meereen, the harpy's gold flower actually mostly red with a bit of yellow on the show).

It's a bit dicey to try and figure out what the books are telling us by using the show. What I mean is it seems like it might well apply in some cases, but in others... who knows?

[Ellfoy]

Good catch. Like, maybe a really good catch.

Didn't MMD possess a leaf shaped dagger?

Could be. Else it could lead into an explanation about its Westerosi equivalent.

Iain Glen voice: "Khaleesi, in Westeros it is called a winter rose. Your brother Rhaegar" ... well, you guys know the rest of that story. :)

Yes, I thought about that too :cheers:

And jet199, awesome catch. Mystery "why THIS is in a Dany/Daario scene" finally solved

[J. Stargaryen]

There seems to be some R+L=J imagery surrounding Ser Loras Tyrell during the Tourney of the Hand in AGoT. Having spotted these things, I doubt it's a coincidence that GRRM placed them on and around the Knight of Flowers. A character whose sigil is actually a rose. (Fwiw, his personal device is three golden roses. Three being strongly associated with House Targaryen and THotD prophecy. So, maybe that's not a coincidence either.)

 

Knowing what we know about Jon's identity and his ties to blue roses, GRRM's inclusion of the Knight of Flowers allows him to play around with R+L=J symbolism, as you'll see.

 

Quote

Ser Loras was the youngest son of Mace Tyrell, the Lord of Highgarden and Warden of the South. At sixteen, he was the youngest rider on the field, yet he had unhorsed three knights of the Kingsguard that morning in his first three jousts. Sansa had never seen anyone so beautiful. His plate was intricately fashioned and enameled as a bouquet of a thousand different flowers, and his snow-white stallion was draped in a blanket of red and white roses. After each victory, Ser Loras would remove his helm and ride slowly round the fence, and finally pluck a single white rose from the blanket and toss it to some fair maiden in the crowd.

- AGoT, Sansa II

 

To begin with, GRRM is using the setting as a hint. Here we are, at a tournament. Not coincidentally, the origins of R+L=J can be traced back to the famous Tourney at Harrenhal in the Year of the False Spring, where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty.

 

Three knights of the KG who were defeated, just like at the ToJ. Another R+L=J connection. Also, reading "that morning" makes me think of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Perhaps that was even GRRM's intention.

 

'Snow-white' is a description we see associated with the KG twice (Eddard I, Sansa II) and Ghost once, Jon I. The nudge to remind readers of Jon Snow is hardly subtle. At most, GRRM could be said to be hiding it in plain sight. Somewhat beside the point, but I do not think it is a coincidence in the least that the Kingsguard wears white, which is of course the color of snow. Yes, like Jon Snow. (Also, see: "snowy cloak," Sansa IV, Eddard XV.)

 

But further, we have a "blanket of red and white roses." This practically shouts: Wars of the Roses! Which makes sense since GRRM has often mentioned that they were one of the big inspirations for the series. Specifically the game of thrones portion of the story.

 

With that in mind, can we read anything into Ser Loras' distribution of the roses? Historically speaking, the white rose was associated with the Yorks, the eventual losing side of the WotR. Loras gives the white roses to unnamed fair maidens in the crowd, but Sansa is special. She's the Hand's daughter, and this is the Tourney of the Hand, so she gets a red rose. That's the likely in-story explanation, at least, though it's never stated.

 

Historically, the red rose is associated with the Lancasters, and it was one of their claimants who eventually emerged victorious in the WotR. I'm left wondering exactly what GRRM is trying to tell us here. The red and white roses on Ser Loras' horse were not written that way by accident. I'm confident of that much.

 

Does it mean that Sansa, as many have theorized, will end up winning the game of thrones? That's one possible conclusion. But it would probably be a mistake to ignore the R+L=J hints we're getting around this WotR symbolism. Not that they necessarily preclude the Sansa wins! outcome, but their inclusion merits further thought and analysis.

 

Quote

After each victory, Ser Loras would remove his helm and ride slowly round the fence, and finally pluck a single white rose from the blanket and toss it to some fair maiden in the crowd.

 

[...]

 

To the other maidens he had given white roses, but the one he plucked for her was red. “Sweet lady,” he said, “no victory is half so beautiful as you.” Sansa took the flower timidly, struck dumb by his gallantry.

- Sansa, II

 

It could also be telling us that another civil war was about to begin. Symbolic markers, so to speak. Recall the last time a Stark maiden was given roses at a tournament. (The fact that history is repeating itself here really stands out as an obvious parallel between the two tournaments, to go along with some of the more subtle connections.)

 

Quote

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

- AGoT, Eddard XV

 

It wasn't long after that the rebellion began. So it seems like giving Stark girls roses at tournaments leads to bloody business. :)

 

A couple of points here. First, Sansa took the flower from Ser Loras. In my analysis of "the moment when all the smiles died" I noted that the crown was placed in Lyanna's lap, which I believe symbolizes the conception of Jon. There was some further discussion about whether it was proper, practical, or even possible for her to reach out and accept the laurel. I think in light of this Sansa comparison, my analysis holds up well; i.e., that GRRM deliberately wrote it so that Rhaegar placed the crown of roses in Lyanna's lap for the symbolic value.

 

Secondly, notice the colors of the flowers. There is somewhat of a red/blue dichotomy in the series. Red being partially associated with fire, and blue partially with ice, winter and snow. (...blue as frost.) I'm not entirely sure what to make of it at the moment, other than the usual associations with those colors.

 

---

 

Quote

He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. - AGoT, Eddard I

 

[...]

 

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. - AGoT, Eddard X

 

The second quote almost surely tells us what color the roses in the first quote were when they were alive. At least, Ned associates blue rose petals with the ToJ, where he eventually saw the dead and black rose petals spill from Lyanna's hand. So, blue and black.

 

Quote

When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa’s fervent whisper, “Oh, he’s so beautiful.” Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy’s shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape.

- AGoT, Eddard VII

 

Let's start with the second part first. Here, Ser Loras is wearing silver armor decorated with blue flowers, which actually turn out to be sapphires. The gem that just so happens to hint at secrets, lies and hidden identities. Convenient, eh? The coloring is curious when you think about it, since the Tyrell colors are gold and green. Why did GRRM decorate that character, the Knight of Flowers, in those colors?

 

The decision to use blue 'flowers' here, at a tourney, was no accident. I believe this was done with the intent of reminding the audience of the Tourney at Harrenhal and the crown of winter roses. In other words, it's yet another R+L=J allusion.

 

The phrase blue of the flowers is even reminiscent of Dany's vision from the HotU: A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness... Or perhaps it's the other way around. But, either way, there's something of a linguistic connection.

 

Now, back to the first part. Blue and black, intertwined. Which I think connects back to the roses at the ToJ, which were very likely blue before they were dead and black. "[T]iny blue forget-me-nots make for an interesting choice, I think, in light of these possible R+L=J hints and clues. What is it that Ned can't forget?

 

Quote

The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. - AGoT, Eddard I

 

[...]

Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. - AGoT, Eddard II

 

[...]

 

That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them. - AGoT, Edddard IX

 

As I mentioned in my Emeralds thread, the color blue can be tied to Jon Snow symbolically via the blue roses, for starters. The sapphires which, again, hint at secrets and lies with a focus on identity. (That actually reads like a vague description of R+L=J.) Then we have the Blue Fork of the Trident, where it turns out that the sepulcher of Tristifer IV Mudd is a big R+L=J metaphor (Do yourself a favor and read that analysis if you haven't yet. It's really great. Credit to FrozenFire3, among others.). And, it was also the spot where Robb told Catelyn of his plan to legitimize Jon as a Stark and designate him as the heir to Winterfell, as well as the kingdoms of the North and Trident.

 

---

 

In further support of the flower-rose premise, here are a couple of examples of GRRM using the two words interchangeably.

 

Quote

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.
"Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden.

>- AGoT, Eddard XV

 

Quote

A blue flowergrew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness… - ACoK, Daenerys IV

 

[the following Dany chapter]

 

'A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood… what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer’s dragon, you said. What is a mummer’s dragon, pray?” - Daenerys V

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

R+L=J I get it but, how are you going to get Jon to marry Daenerys ?She may marry him now he is not one of the sons of the usurper's dogs but the son of the all loved Rhaegar but he isn't handsome and compared to what she is use to he is a hick . He could offer her the North only if he stays a Stark. And how can you get Jon to marry Daenerys ? He was raised a Stark and would not marry his aunt.

[J. Stargaryen]

R+L=J I get it but, how are you going to get Jon to marry Daenerys ?She may marry him now he is not one of the sons of the usurper's dogs but the son of the all loved Rhaegar but he isn't handsome and compared to what she is use to he is a hick . He could offer her the North only if he stays a Stark. And how can you get Jon to marry Daenerys ? He was raised a Stark and would not marry his aunt.

I never claimed they would marry.

[J. Stargaryen]

For my 3000th post, I'll come back to one of my favorite topics. With convenient timing I might add, since there has been some recent debate, and misunderstanding I think, over the symbolism of the blue winter roses in the R+L=J thread. So I'm going to quickly throw together a post on the matter. Sort of a TL;DR for the OP.

We're running into the same old blue roses symbolize Lyanna debate. No, I don't think they do, or at least that's missing the point. She's part of it, but there's certainly more to it. That said, I absolutely believe associating blue roses with (only) Lyanna is what GRRM wants us to do, at least initially. He certainly paired them together often enough. But he does so in what I think is a typically GRRM-tricky way. Because it's not until Ned's final chapter that we learn where these blue winter roses that Lyanna is always remembered with come from—Rhaegar Targaryen. Only revealing this crucial information in Ned's last POV is quite by design, I think.

In Eddard I, Ned remembers Lyanna in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Ned recalls the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. In Eddard X, we learn that this room was at the ToJ, and Ned dreams of a storm of blue rose petals blowing across a blood streaked sky. So it's very likely that the dead and black rose petals were once alive and blue. And where did those roses come from?

(Somewhat aside from the main point, let's also take a closer look at the quote I referenced from the ToJ dream.

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

I've seen, and even offered, a variety of interpretations about this line. But a while back a certain word association occurred to me; storm. Jon Snow isn't the only Targaryen protagonist in the story. Who's the other one? Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen. In other words, I think it's possible that this highly metaphorical line is indicating the birth (storm-born) of Jon as well as the death of his mother.)

In Eddard XII we get this from Ned's meeting with Cersei in the KL godswood: “He was on top of me [Cersei], in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”
Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.

At first it seem to be another simple pairing of Lyanna and blue roses. Another obvious association between the two, right? Right. But why does Ned reflexively think of pale blue roses here, when he hears Lyanna's name? Is that all she was to him? No, I don't think so. To understand why Ned thinks of pale blue roses here you only need to read the chapter, which focuses on children. Specifically, protecting children. Curiously, Ned has been protecting Lyanna's child. Now, remind me again, where did Lyanna's pale blue roses come from, and who is the father of her child?

If you remain unconvinced, I would advise reading the chapter. But, for the time being, I'll pull a few quotes, so you can get the general idea. In spoiler tags for space.

The book of lineages is referenced:

The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms, With Descriptions of Many High Lords and Noble Ladies and Their Children.

Vayon Poole had arranged for Sansa and Arya to sail on the Wind Witch out of Braavos, three days hence. -- protecting children.

Yet last night he [Ned] had dreamt of Rhaegar’s children.

Ned could not let that happen again. The realm could not withstand a second mad king, another dance of blood and vengeance. He must find some way to save the children.

“I know the truth Jon Arryn died for,” he told her. -- Cersei's bastard children.

“My son Bran…”
To her credit, Cersei did not look away. “He saw us. You love your children, do you not?”
Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. “With all my heart.”
“No less do I love mine.”
Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would. -- children + subtextual reference to R+L=J

“For a start,” said Ned, “I do not kill children.”

There's plenty more, btw.

In Eddard XIII, Ned dreams of the crypts beneath Winterfell and Lyanna's statue is wearing a garland of pale blue roses. "Where did she get those?" I ask as if I am trying to hammer home some point.

Finally, we come to the 'reveal'.

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.
Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

- Eddard XV

As I've already written, I believe the first paragraph symbolizes the conception of Jon Snow. Rhaegar even symbolically leaves (or moves on from) his wife for Lyanna; urged his horse past his own wife...

Now, not everybody agrees that the placement of the crown is significant. But, as you can read just a few posts up thread, Ser Loras hands Sansa a rose at the TotH. Why didn't he place it in her lap? I suppose I could say that we know Ser Loras won't be impregnating anyone, if I wanted to make a joke. Heh. But for those who still have doubts, I would simply ask you to imagine yourself in a similar scenario. How inappropriate would it be for a man you don't personally know to place an item in your wife/gf/daughter/sister's lap? Some of us are going to be more open minded than others, but I think all would agree that such an action would be pushing the limits of appropriate behavior, to say the least.

I've already analyzed the second paragraph in the OP, but just to review quickly: Ned grasps the flowery crown but there are thorns. In other words, there were consequences for Ned taking Jon and protecting him. The strain on his relationship with Cat, keeping the secret from Robert, Jon growing up not knowing who his mother was, etc. (Speaking of thorns, it's funny that there is both a blue rose at the Wall as well as a thorn, er, Thorne. Hello, Ser Alliser.)

Anyway, getting back to the original point. Now that you know where those blue winter roses of Lyanna's came from, does it really seem like they symbolize, or only symbolize, Lyanna? Not to me it doesn't. It seems like GRRM saved the most important, revealing occurrence for last. Rhaegar giving Lyanna the blue roses. R+L. And we know what that equals.

[Ygritte]

Anyway, getting back to the original point. Now that you know where those blue winter roses of Lyanna's came from, does it really seem like they symbolize, or only symbolize, Lyanna? Not to me it doesn't. It seems like GRRM saved the most important, revealing occurrence for last. Rhaegar giving Lyanna the blue roses. R+L. And we know what that equals.

:thumbsup:

[MtnLion]

Nicely done, J. Speaking of Ser Alliser, I do want him to know with certainty that Jon Targaryen tolerated his abuse, before that Thorne is removed. ;)

And, I do agree that placing any item into a woman's lap requires both permission and a level of familiarity.

[Fool of a Book]

As usual J, as thorough as possible if you believe R+L=J.

But it does nothing to explain the distinct association between Bael the Bard and Abel/Mance.

And to correct some statements, Bael the Bard and the Stark girl never actually left Winterfell. They hid in the crypts.

Also, there is a question to some whether GRRM meant in this statement:

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death

that the rose petals were blue or that the sky was blue. It's either a misplaced modifier and should (some want it to) mean the rose petals, or he is talking about the sky. IMO the sky is blue, not the rose petals, or GRRM and his editors are hacks, which I don't believe. There is no indication in this sentence that the rose petals were blue. The blood-streaked sky is easily explained by the fever dream and a foreshadowing/metaphor of comets.

Se'er Maam, in another thread, intelligently pointed out that Ned would have no experience with wights and their blue eyes... as far as we know.

Loras giving Sansa a rose at the Hand's Tourney also has absolutely zero to do with R+L, yet it happened. Unless it is a foreshadowing for kidnapping, which would be true in both cases, but why a red rose? If the red has significance to Sansa, so the blue has significance to Lyanna, and not specifically to Jon.

More important, too, is the thorns. Why has GRRM so closely associated Loras Tyrell with giving a rose to Sansa, and having a character named the Queen of Thorns unless it was meant to be a parallel... which has not been explained in this thread.

So, while some speculation makes sense, there is far too much unanswered.

[J. Stargaryen]

As usual J, as thorough as possible if you believe R+L=J.

But it does nothing to explain the distinct association between Bael the Bard and Abel/Mance.

And to correct some statements, Bael the Bard and the Stark girl never actually left Winterfell. They hid in the crypts.

I was focusing on the visions, dreams and memories of Lyanna's roses.

An interesting note about the Bael story, and how he and the girl hid in the crypts. Well, a lot of people believe that some sort of proof or at least evidence regarding Jon's true identity is hidden in the crypts. So it could be a symbolic reference to that. Or it could just be a reference to how Bran and Rickon hid in the crypts. The Bael story may somewhat foreshadow the futures of all the Stark children. Notice the Sansa-Baelish parallels as well.

Also, there is a question to some whether GRRM meant in this statement:

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death

that the rose petals were blue or that the sky was blue. It's either a misplaced modifier and should (some want it to) mean the rose petals, or he is talking about the sky. IMO the sky is blue, not the rose petals, or GRRM and his editors are hacks, which I don't believe. There is no indication in this sentence that the rose petals were blue. The blood-streaked sky is easily explained by the fever dream and a foreshadowing/metaphor of comets.

They're both blue, most likely. I'm far from an expert on matters of grammar and punctuation, but it seems to me like he is describing the rose petals.

Se'er Maam, in another thread, intelligently pointed out that Ned would have no experience with wights and their blue eyes... as far as we know.

I made the same point somewhere on these forums. There's a conversation with Maester Luwin and Bran about Symeon Star-Eyes that leads one to believe it's not common knowledge that the WWs and Wights have blue eyes.

Loras giving Sansa a rose at the Hand's Tourney also has absolutely zero to do with R+L, yet it happened. Unless it is a foreshadowing for kidnapping, which would be true in both cases, but why a red rose? If the red has significance to Sansa, so the blue has significance to Lyanna, and not specifically to Jon.

Take a look at this post.

More important, too, is the thorns. Why has GRRM so closely associated Loras Tyrell with giving a rose to Sansa, and having a character named the Queen of Thorns unless it was meant to be a parallel... which has not been explained in this thread.

So, while some speculation makes sense, there is far too much unanswered.

I've noticed that you focus a lot on the gaps. We're five books through a seven or eight book series. We're rarely going to be able to completely answer these questions down to the last detail.

[Fool of a Book]

I certainly focus on the gaps, most especially with theories that do not address them.

Going to go read the link you just posted.

But, how can you work the deliberate association between Bael and Abel/Mance into your thesis? It's not a passing mention; it's reinforced several times.

ETA yes I read that post, and I was impressed about the WotR association, so let me make another statement.

In the WotR, there were TWO princes in the tower. Off topic, I know, but since we're discussing it....

[Ygrain]

As usual J, as thorough as possible if you believe R+L=J.

But it does nothing to explain the distinct association between Bael the Bard and Abel/Mance.

And to correct some statements, Bael the Bard and the Stark girl never actually left Winterfell. They hid in the crypts.

Also, there is a question to some whether GRRM meant in this statement:

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death

that the rose petals were blue or that the sky was blue. It's either a misplaced modifier and should (some want it to) mean the rose petals, or he is talking about the sky. IMO the sky is blue, not the rose petals, or GRRM and his editors are hacks, which I don't believe. There is no indication in this sentence that the rose petals were blue. The blood-streaked sky is easily explained by the fever dream and a foreshadowing/metaphor of comets.

Se'er Maam, in another thread, intelligently pointed out that Ned would have no experience with wights and their blue eyes... as far as we know.

Loras giving Sansa a rose at the Hand's Tourney also has absolutely zero to do with R+L, yet it happened. Unless it is a foreshadowing for kidnapping, which would be true in both cases, but why a red rose? If the red has significance to Sansa, so the blue has significance to Lyanna, and not specifically to Jon.

More important, too, is the thorns. Why has GRRM so closely associated Loras Tyrell with giving a rose to Sansa, and having a character named the Queen of Thorns unless it was meant to be a parallel... which has not been explained in this thread.

So, while some speculation makes sense, there is far too much unanswered.

If the sky is blood-streaked, it will be described as red, not blue.

As for the blue eyes of death, the colour may not refer solely to wights, there may be some other death-related imagery, such as in Cersei's dream where death has yellow eyes. Blue eyes of death remind of a story by Andrzej Sapkowski where death is depicted as a pale young girl with icy blue eyes, perhaps because out of the possible eye colours, pale blue looks coldest. - Getting back to ASOIAF, the winter roses are also pale blue, and these pale blue roses, aka love for Rhaegar and birth of Jon, brought about Lyanna's death, so perhaps the metaphor can work like this, as well, without any wight connection on Ned's part.

[J. Stargaryen]

I certainly focus on the gaps, most especially with theories that do not address them.

Going to go read the link you just posted.

But, how can you work the deliberate association between Bael and Abel/Mance into your thesis? It's not a passing mention; it's reinforced several times.

ETA yes I read that post, and I was impressed about the WotR association, so let me make another statement.

In the WotR, there were TWO princes in the tower. Off topic, I know, but since we're discussing it....

What it looks like to me is that Bael's story was meant to serve as foreshadowing for upcoming events in ASoIaF, and that is simply playing itself out.

Via the Mance--Rhaegar parallels, and the more overt Mance--Bael parallels, GRRM is connecting R+L=J and the song o' the winter rose. Mance being the common denominator. In a way, he's part Rhaegar, part Bael. Obviously these aren't 1:1 parallels, but I think that is probably the gist of it.

Bran and Rickon are both princes. And there is a question of whether or not they're actually dead.

[Fool of a Book]

If the sky is blood-streaked, it will be described as red, not blue.

As for the blue eyes of death, the colour may not refer solely to wights, there may be some other death-related imagery, such as in Cersei's dream where death has yellow eyes. Blue eyes of death remind of a story by Andrzej Sapkowski where death is depicted as a pale young girl with icy blue eyes, perhaps because out of the possible eye colours, pale blue looks coldest. - Getting back to ASOIAF, the winter roses are also pale blue, and these pale blue roses, aka love for Rhaegar and birth of Jon, brought about Lyanna's death, so perhaps the metaphor can work like this, as well, without any wight connection on Ned's part.

The sky is blue, with a blood-streaked accent. Blue with red. Are we in disagreement? The question is the misplaced modifier, whether the sky or the rose petals were blue. I have never seen GRRM use a misplaced modifier. The sky is blue with blood-red streaks. It's not like we haven't had that imagery elsewhere.

GRRM made it clear like a decade ago that it was a fever dream. I suppose Ned is dreaming about the blue eyes of wights, after the comma, when describing the sky?

And you still have not tied in the Bael/Mance connection. And you still have not tied in the Sansa/Rose/Thorn connection. You've basically regurgitated an argument for R+L=J without addressing my points.

Bael has a connection with blue roses, so does the unnamed Stark girl, so does Dany.

The Tyrell's have a connection with roses and Stark girls and thorns.

There is absolutely ZERO textual evidence that blue roses mean Rhaegar loved Lyanna. Zero.

Is there evidence Loras loved Sansa because of a red rose?

We don't know Lyanna died giving birth to Jon. We also don't even know if Jon is Lyanna's child. We also don't know how Lyanna died.

And if Ned is associating wights-eyes to Lyanna's death, how does that have to to with Rhaegar?

[Fool of a Book]

What it looks like to me is that Bael's story was meant to serve as foreshadowing for upcoming events in ASoIaF, and that is simply playing itself out.

Via the Mance--Rhaegar parallels, and the more overt Mance--Bael parallels, GRRM is connecting R+L=J and the song o' the winter rose. Mance being the common denominator. In a way, he's part Rhaegar, part Bael. Obviously these aren't 1:1 parallels, but I think that is probably the gist of it.

Bran and Rickon are both princes. And there is a question of whether or not they're actually dead.

I'm trying to work out your logic, but I have absolutely no reason to associate Mance/Abel.... a current (and perhaps alive) character... with the story of R+L.

Rhaegar is not a wilding/First Men Blood. Rhaegar has nothing whatsoever to do with anything North of the Wall. We're told repeatedly how Wildlings "steal" their wives. This has zero to do with Targs/Rhaegar.

Yes, there are Mance parallels to Rhaegar (poet harpist etc) but I have yet to see anyone tie this into the BLUE ROSES = JON theory.

And we all know that Bran and Rickon are alive.

[Ygritte]

If the sky is blood-streaked, it will be described as red, not blue.

As for the blue eyes of death, the colour may not refer solely to wights, there may be some other death-related imagery, such as in Cersei's dream where death has yellow eyes. Blue eyes of death remind of a story by Andrzej Sapkowski where death is depicted as a pale young girl with icy blue eyes, perhaps because out of the possible eye colours, pale blue looks coldest. - Getting back to ASOIAF, the winter roses are also pale blue, and these pale blue roses, aka love for Rhaegar and birth of Jon, brought about Lyanna's death, so perhaps the metaphor can work like this, as well, without any wight connection on Ned's part.

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if there's sort of a vague folk memory of blue=death in the North even if people don't specifically remember the wights. Or Old Nan said something to him once in a story.

[MtnLion]

GRRM made it clear like a decade ago that it was a fever dream. I suppose Ned is dreaming about the blue eyes of wights, after the comma, when describing the sky?

It is also as clear as can be that it is not the first time that Ned has had the dream. So, dismissing it as a fever dream is not possible, unless you can say that every other time that Ned has had the "same old dream" that he has had a fever.

[Fool of a Book]

Other than what we've all read a thousand and one times on R+L threads, I'd like to hear opinions about the following points:

Mance's very close association, due to GRRM's writing and plot decisions, to Bael the Bard.

The Tyrell's very close association, due to GRRM's writing and plot decisions, with roses, thorns and Stark maidens.

The utter lack of association, due to GRRM's writings and plot decisions, between Rhaegar's family and history to the above intentional plot points.

-

And not yet discussed are Petyr Baelish's association with Bael the Bard.

[MtnLion]

I'm trying to work out your logic, but I have absolutely no reason to associate Mance/Abel.... a current (and perhaps alive) character... with the story of R+L.

Rhaegar is not a wilding/First Men Blood. Rhaegar has nothing whatsoever to do with anything North of the Wall. We're told repeatedly how Wildlings "steal" their wives. This has zero to do with Targs/Rhaegar.

Yes, there are Mance parallels to Rhaegar (poet harpist etc) but I have yet to see anyone tie this into the BLUE ROSES = JON theory.

And we all know that Bran and Rickon are alive.

I don't find it difficult to understand, Abel took Brandon the Daughterless' daughter as a theft, thereby marrying her by wildling custom, and left a boy child in place of the blue rose that he was offered. If that doesn't scream parallel, I don't know what does.

What other blue rose is growing from a wall of ice? Why does Lyanna love the blue roses so much? Why does Ned always think of blue roses when he thinks of Lyanna? We could go on an on, but the only thing that makes sense is the Ned replaces Lyanna's son with a blue rose to avoid revealing his secret.

We do not know that Rickon is alive.

[J. Stargaryen]

I'm trying to work out your logic, but I have absolutely no reason to associate Mance/Abel.... a current (and perhaps alive) character... with the story of R+L.

If you're associating Mance/Abel with Bael, then the answer is obvious—blue roses.

Rhaegar is not a wilding/First Men Blood. Rhaegar has nothing whatsoever to do with anything North of the Wall. We're told repeatedly how Wildlings "steal" their wives. This has zero to do with Targs/Rhaegar.

No idea what point you think you're making. Again, you're focusing on stuff that doesn't matter. But fwiw, Rhaegar did supposedly steal Lyanna.

Yes, there are Mance parallels to Rhaegar (poet harpist etc) but I have yet to see anyone tie this into the BLUE ROSES = JON theory.

I just did.

It's not complicated. Mance's story is evocative of Rhaegar, who is Jon's dad. We know the connection of R+L=J to blue roses. The other blue rose story in ASoIaF is Bael's. Mance's ADwD story is reminiscent of Bael the Bard. So, GRRM appears to be binding R+L=J and the song o' the winter rose more tightly via the character of Mance. Again, Mance is the symbolic common denominator of the fathers in the two blue rose stories present in ASoIaF.

And we all know that Bran and Rickon are alive.

Sure, the audience does. But in story, not so much. Honestly, it would be great if you didn't need to have stuff like this explained.

Other than what we've all read a thousand and one times on R+L threads, I'd like to hear opinions about the following points:

Mance's very close association, due to GRRM's writing and plot decisions, to Bael the Bard.

The Tyrell's very close association, due to GRRM's writing and plot decisions, with roses, thorns and Stark maidens.

The utter lack of association, due to GRRM's writings and plot decisions, between Rhaegar's family and history to the above intentional plot points.

-

And not yet discussed are Petyr Baelish's association with Bael the Bard.

As this thread focuses on Jon Snow, the Sansa-Baelish connections to Bael's story have purposely been omitted. This is also where the Tyrells come in. Baelish stole Sansa and replaced her with Margaery/the Tyrells.

Similarly, the part of the Bael story where they hide in the crypts somewhat parallels Bran and Rickon hiding in the crypts.

But again, this thread's focus is Jon Snow.