Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone

[Fool of a Book]

I don't find it difficult to understand, Abel took Brandon the Daughterless' daughter as a theft, thereby marrying her by wildling custom, and left a boy child in place of the blue rose that he was offered. If that doesn't scream parallel, I don't know what does.

What does that have to do with Rhaegar? He's not a wildling. And what does that have to do with Mance in the current story? He's the one the keeps sneaking into Winterfell.

What other blue rose is growing from a wall of ice? Why does Lyanna love the blue roses so much? Why does Ned always think of blue roses when he thinks of Lyanna? We could go on an on, but the only thing that makes sense is the Ned replaces Lyanna's son with a blue rose to avoid revealing his secret.

Jon could be Lyanna's son. But unless you associate Rhaegar with the specific scenario of wildling kings stealing Stark girls, you're leaving out a large part of the equation.

We do not know that Rickon is alive.

That's being pedantic, you know what I meant.

If you're associating Mance/Abel with Bael, then the answer is obvious—blue roses.

No idea what point you think you're making. Again, you're focusing on stuff that doesn't matter. But fwiw, Rhaegar did supposedly steal Lyanna.

I just did.

It's not complicated. Mance's story is evocative of Rhaegar, who is Jon's dad. We know the connection of R+L=J to blue roses. The other blue rose story in ASoIaF is Bael's. Mance's ADwD story is reminiscent of Bael the Bard. So, GRRM appears to be binding R+L=J and the song o' the winter rose more tightly via the character of Mance. Again, Mance is the symbolic common denominator of the fathers in the two blue rose stories present in ASoIaF.

Sure, the audience does. But in story, not so much. Honestly, it would be great if you didn't need to have stuff like this explained.

As this thread focuses on Jon Snow, the Sansa-Baelish connections to Bael's story have purposely been omitted. This is also where the Tyrells come in. Baelish stole Sansa and replaced her with Margaery/the Tyrells.

Similarly, the part of the Bael story where they hide in the crypts somewhat parallels Bran and Rickon hiding in the crypts.

But again, this thread's focus is Jon Snow.

And you still have not associated Mance with blue roses.

[J. Stargaryen]

And you still have not associated Mance with blue roses.

Not my fault if you can't grasp the concept.

[Fool of a Book]

Not my fault if you can't grasp the concept.

Dany's HoTU dream mentions blue roses.... huge leap to J=R+L

Mance is associated several times with Bael the Bard.... oh shush now? What concept, you haven't offered one.

Mance has a closer association with Bael and therefore sneaking into Winterfell/abduction of Stark Maidens/blue roses than Rhaegar.

GRRM wrote the story, not me.

[J. Stargaryen]

Dany's HoTU dream mentions blue roses.... huge leap to J=R+L

Mance is associated several times with Bael the Bard.... oh shush now? What concept, you haven't offered one.

Mance has a closer association with Bael and therefore sneaking into Winterfell/abduction of Stark Maidens/blue roses than Rhaegar.

GRRM wrote the story, not me.

Nobody is shushing anything. The topic has been addressed more than once. Quit trolling my thread.

[Fool of a Book]

Nobody is shushing anything. The topic has been addressed more than once. Quit trolling my thread.

Since when is it trolling to ask the OP to explain a major association in the book that is not explained by the OP in the thread?

[J. Stargaryen]

Since when is it trolling to ask the OP to explain a major association in the book that is not explained by the OP in the thread?

It's trolling when you keep insisting no explanation has been provided when one has on multiple occasions. Your inability to understand it, or unwillingness to accept it is beside the point. Your question was asked and answered.

[Ygrain]

The sky is blue, with a blood-streaked accent. Blue with red. Are we in disagreement? The question is the misplaced modifier, whether the sky or the rose petals were blue. I have never seen GRRM use a misplaced modifier. The sky is blue with blood-red streaks. It's not like we haven't had that imagery elsewhere.

I offered you a linguistic insight. The sky is normally blue, it is its default colour. Blood streaks are a deviation from default, and hence carry emphasis as a more important piece of information, overriding the default. Adding a modifier which emphasizes a normal state of the sky, in this particular context of already having a semantically ladden modifier ("blood"), would be illogical. On the other hand, the rose petals haven't been described yet and blue is not any of the default colours for roses, so the modifier belongs to them, and what you perceive as misplacement of the modifier is allowed exactly because the context.

GRRM made it clear like a decade ago that it was a fever dream. I suppose Ned is dreaming about the blue eyes of wights, after the comma, when describing the sky?

And if Ned is associating wights-eyes to Lyanna's death, how does that have to to with Rhaegar?

I offered an alternative explanation for "blue eyes of death" which may not have anything to do with the knowledge of the wights. As Ygritte pointed out, it could be a cultural concept related to the wights but without Ned actively using the knowledge, or it may be a psychological effect of Ned knowing what the blue roses brought to Lyanna.

There is absolutely ZERO textual evidence that blue roses mean Rhaegar loved Lyanna. Zero.

And Lyanna is repeatedly depicted as wearing the crown Rhaegar gave her because...?

“Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.

Is there evidence Loras loved Sansa because of a red rose?

Can you provide a similar set of quotes depicting Sansa with a red rose?

[J. Stargaryen]

I offered you a linguistic insight. The sky is normally blue, it is its default colour. Blood streaks are a deviation from default, and hence carry emphasis as a more important piece of information, overriding the default. Adding a modifier which emphasizes a normal state of the sky, in this particular context of already having a semantically ladden modifier ("blood"), would be illogical. On the other hand, the rose petals haven't been described yet and blue is not any of the default colours for roses, so the modifier belongs to them, and what you perceive as misplacement of the modifier is allowed exactly because the context.

<snip>

Fwiw, butterbumps! also thinks it's the petals.

Wrt to the bold, I didn't even realize that. Good point.

[Ygrain]

Fwiw, butterbumps! also thinks it's the petals.

Wrt to the bold, I didn't even realize that. Good point.

At the long last, it seems that those tedious linguistics classes find some good use :D

[IceFire125]

The recent discussions totally brought me back to when HBO released the history and lore for season 3. During Thoros' introduction of the Lord of Light and telling the story of AA, his wife, Nissa Nissa, and Lightbringer... I like how a little hint of a rose appeared in the animation. Don't know the color, but is it safe to assume that it's blue?

http://i.imgur.com/VXDl0Xp.png

To me, it's so random and so out of place, yet it's as if the show is telling us that R+L=J was important and in direct or indirectly related to Azor Ahai, Nissa Nissa and Lightbringer... furthermore, after you read Mel's chapter and read what she heard and saw in those flames regarding a certain Snow, it does add weight doesn't it? hmmmmm :)

[J. Stargaryen]

The recent discussions totally brought me back to when HBO released the history and lore for season 3. During Thoros' introduction of the Lord of Light and telling the story of AA, his wife, Nissa Nissa, and Lightbringer... I like how a little hint of a rose appeared in the animation. Don't know the color, but is it safe to assume that it's blue?

http://i.imgur.com/VXDl0Xp.png

To me, it's so random and so out of place, yet it's as if the show is telling us that R+L=J was important and in direct or indirectly related to Azor Ahai, Nissa Nissa and Lightbringer... furthermore, after you read Mel's chapter and read what she heard and saw in those flames regarding a certain Snow, it does add weight doesn't it? hmmmmm :)

I managed to miss this somehow. Oops. But yeah, I completely agree. I recall that there was some discussion of it in the R+L=J thread at the time. AA, NN, LB, roses... interesting grouping there for sure. :)

[J. Stargaryen]

An addition to the analysis of Ser Loras at the TotH in post #123.

Wed to Ser Loras, oh… Sansa’s breath caught in her throat. She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling sapphire armor, tossing her a rose. Ser Loras in white silk, so pure, innocent, beautiful. The dimples at the corner of his mouth when he smiled. The sweetness of his laugh, the warmth of his hand. She could only imagine what it would be like to pull up his tunic and caress the smooth skin underneath, to stand on her toes and kiss him, to run her fingers through those thick brown curls and drown in his deep brown eyes. A flush crept up her neck.

- ASoS, Sansa I

First, concerning the bold, we have this suggestion of blue + rose—"sparkling sapphire armor"—which I think reinforces the aforementioned analysis. Next, this passage details Sansa's thoughts about marrying and bedding Ser Loras; aka, the Knight of Flowers. And again, I think it presents some very interesting parallels with Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Sansa, a Stark maiden, recalls the sapphire armor + rose (=blue rose) she received from Ser Loras at a tourney. All things which are very reminiscent of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna the QoLaB with blue roses during the Tourney at Harrenhal. In her mind she clearly desires to wed and bed the Knight of Flowers. If a lady like Sansa had these thoughts, I wonder what the wolf-blooded Lyanna thought about Rhaegar, a knight who gave her flowers, not to mention made her weep with his harp.

Finally, Sansa's dreams of marrying Ser Loras are dashed with the revelation that Lady Olenna means to marry her to Willas Tyrell.

Sansa felt dizzy; one instant her head was full of dreams of Loras, and the next they had all been snatched away.

I wonder if this look into Sansa's mind isn't meant to mirror Lyanna's thoughts and feelings regarding Rhaegar and Robert. Oh, Rhaegar is so0o0o0 dreamy. Only to be told that her father has accepted Robert's proposal of marriage.

[IceFire125]

An addition to the analysis of Ser Loras at the TotH in post #123.

- ASoS, Sansa I

First, concerning the bold, we have this suggestion of blue + rose—"sparkling sapphire armor"—which I think reinforces the aforementioned analysis. Next, this passage details Sansa's thoughts about marrying and bedding Ser Loras; aka, the Knight of Flowers. And again, I think it presents some very interesting parallels with Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Sansa, a Stark maiden, recalls the sapphire armor + rose (=blue rose) she received from Ser Loras at a tourney. All things which are very reminiscent of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna the QoLaB with a crown of blue roses during the Tourney at Harrenhal. In her mind she clearly desires to wed and bed the Knight of Flowers. If the lady like Sansa had these thoughts, I wonder what the wolf-blooded Lyanna thought about Rhaegar, a knight who gave her flowers.

Finally, Sansa's dreams of marrying Ser Loras are dashed with the revelation that Lady Ollena means to marry her to Willas Tyrell.

I wonder if this look into Sansa's mind isn't meant to mirror Lyanna's thoughts and feelings regarding Rhaegar and Robert. Oh, Rhaegar is so0o0o0 dreamy. Only to be told that her father has accepted Robert's proposal of marriage.

Arya's activeness, risk-taking, physique, do not wish to be a lady

+

Sansa's dreamy, sentimental thoughts of love, romance and marrying the true knight/prince

=

the embodiment of Lyanna.

[J. Stargaryen]

Arya's activeness, risk-taking, physique, do not wish to be a lady

+

Sansa's dreamy, sentimental thoughts of love, romance and marrying the true knight/prince

=

the embodiment of Lyanna.

Basically agree. I'd also add Sansa's noted beauty.

[Ygritte]

Basically agree. I'd also add Sansa's noted beauty.

And also on the beauty topic: Lyanna is called beautiful, and Arya not, even though they look very similar--which to me suggests that either Arya will grow into her looks and also be pretty when she's older (assuming she lives), or that she was never unpretty in the first place, but perceived as such because she was always unkempt. :)

[J. Stargaryen]

And also on the beauty topic: Lyanna is called beautiful, and Arya not, even though they look very similar--which to me suggests that either Arya will grow into her looks and also be pretty when she's older (assuming she lives), or that she was never unpretty in the first place, but perceived as such because she was always unkempt. :)

I also believe that Arya will grow into her looks.

[Ygritte]

Just posted this over in the big R+L=J too:

The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon's body and a woman's face.

"A dragon queen," said Tyrion. "A pleasant omen."

"Her king is missing." Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. "The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak."

The king is missing. We've seen that theme before, dropped as hints here and there (like kings under the snow).

The plinth is covered with moss and flowering vines. Moss grows on the north side of things. In real life, not exclusively, but it's definitely folklore that it does, which may be even more important in analyzing fantasy. As for the flowering vines, what kind of flower are they? Tyrion doesn't tell us they're roses, and he doesn't tell us they're not. Roses aren't really meaningful to Tyrion IIRC, and he's in an epically bad mood, so I'm not sure he'd register them as such, even if they were. Probably irrelevant, but I'm also reminded that one word for a climbing vine is liana.

So, are we being told that there's a missing king who's in the north and associated with a flowering vine?

[J. Stargaryen]

Just posted this over in the big R+L=J too:

The king is missing. We've seen that theme before, dropped as hints here and there (like kings under the snow).

The plinth is covered with moss and flowering vines. Moss grows on the north side of things. In real life, not exclusively, but it's definitely folklore that it does, which may be even more important in analyzing fantasy. As for the flowering vines, what kind of flower are they? Tyrion doesn't tell us they're roses, and he doesn't tell us they're not. Roses aren't really meaningful to Tyrion IIRC, and he's in an epically bad mood, so I'm not sure he'd register them as such, even if they were. Probably irrelevant, but I'm also reminded that one word for a climbing vine is liana.

So, are we being told that there's a missing king who's in the north and associated with a flowering vine?

Which is linguistically similar to this previously mentioned passage:

When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa’s fervent whisper, “Oh, he’s so beautiful.” Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy’s shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape.

- AGoT, Eddard VII

"[F]lowering vines" + the bold.

Nice catch, Ygritte. :thumbsup:

[Ygrain]

An addition to the analysis of Ser Loras at the TotH in post #123.

- ASoS, Sansa I

First, concerning the bold, we have this suggestion of blue + rose—"sparkling sapphire armor"—which I think reinforces the aforementioned analysis. Next, this passage details Sansa's thoughts about marrying and bedding Ser Loras; aka, the Knight of Flowers. And again, I think it presents some very interesting parallels with Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Sansa, a Stark maiden, recalls the sapphire armor + rose (=blue rose) she received from Ser Loras at a tourney. All things which are very reminiscent of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna the QoLaB with a crown of blue roses during the Tourney at Harrenhal. In her mind she clearly desires to wed and bed the Knight of Flowers. If the lady like Sansa had these thoughts, I wonder what the wolf-blooded Lyanna thought about Rhaegar, a knight who gave her flowers.

Finally, Sansa's dreams of marrying Ser Loras are dashed with the revelation that Lady Ollena means to marry her to Willas Tyrell.

I wonder if this look into Sansa's mind isn't meant to mirror Lyanna's thoughts and feelings regarding Rhaegar and Robert. Oh, Rhaegar is so0o0o0 dreamy. Only to be told that her father has accepted Robert's proposal of marriage.

Just posted this over in the big R+L=J too:

The king is missing. We've seen that theme before, dropped as hints here and there (like kings under the snow).

The plinth is covered with moss and flowering vines. Moss grows on the north side of things. In real life, not exclusively, but it's definitely folklore that it does, which may be even more important in analyzing fantasy. As for the flowering vines, what kind of flower are they? Tyrion doesn't tell us they're roses, and he doesn't tell us they're not. Roses aren't really meaningful to Tyrion IIRC, and he's in an epically bad mood, so I'm not sure he'd register them as such, even if they were. Probably irrelevant, but I'm also reminded that one word for a climbing vine is liana.

So, are we being told that there's a missing king who's in the north and associated with a flowering vine?

Guys, I love you. Those are beautiful catches.

[J. Stargaryen]

Guys, I love you. Those are beautiful catches.

:blushing: :grouphug: :love: