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J. Stargaryen

Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone

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Couldn´t "Lyanna was...fond of flowers " mean that precisley? She liked flowers but didn´t love ´em, she loved horseback riding and sword playing.

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Couldn´t "Lyanna was...fond of flowers " mean that precisley? She liked flowers but didn´t love ´em, she loved horseback riding and sword playing.

I suppose that it could from Robert's point of view, and that is probably precisely why Ned chose those words.

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Awesome thread. I like it. But what I found really interesting is the BtB ending, and the possibility of how Jon ends up when the story is over. In the end WF didnt go to a son or the son of a son. It went to a daughters son. So if Jon ends up King of the North somehow, Winterfell will once again fall to the son of a daughter.

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Awesome thread. I like it. But what I found really interesting is the BtB ending, and the possibility of how Jon ends up when the story is over. In the end WF didnt go to a son or the son of a son. It went to a daughters son. So if Jon ends up King of the North somehow, Winterfell will once again fall to the son of a daughter.

Thanks. There's a lot going on in the BtB story, and it will be interesting to see how each part matches up with current events.

---

I added a short description of blue rose meanings to the OP. The "royal blood" part might clarify or strengthen the connection between Jon and the roses for some people.

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I recently came across a blue rose reference that was unknown to me in AFfC, Cersei IX:

“I am, Your Grace.” The singer’s boots were supple blue calfskin, his breeches fine blue wool. The tunic he wore was pale blue silk slashed with shiny blue satin. He had even gone so far as to dye his hair blue, in the Tyroshi fashion. Long and curly, it fell to his shoulders and smelled as if it had been washed in rosewater. From blue roses, no doubt. At least his teeth are white. They were good teeth, not the least bit crooked.

I'm not sure that there is a specific "translation," as it were, but "blue roses" + "bard" is certainly evocative of Rhaegar and Bael the Bard. I wonder if there is anything more specific. Thoughts?

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I've reworked the HotU part, and I think it makes an interesting, if not compelling, case.

It's closer to the bottom of the OP, and I'll post it here for the sake of ease, minus the spoiler tags.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

Initially I dismissed this soley as GRRM's way of establishing a direct link between Jon and the blue rose; i.e., without Lyanna as a middleman (middlemaid?). However, I think there could be a little more to it, or perhaps even a lot more to it.

"Chink," in this instance, literally means things like crack or opening. But of course there is the phrase "a chink in the armor." And a chink in your armor makes you vulnerable to attack, which has interesting ramifications for the NW at large. But if we're looking for a specific event, Jon was attacked near the end of ADwD. Which means he was "vulnerable" to attack, prior to it happening.

The fact that this assassination attempt was carried out by some of his black brothers would seem to strengthen the connection to this specific incident, since attacking your Lord Commander could result in the use of words that are synonymous with "chink"; i.e., crack, fracture, break etc. So, maybe oath breaking, and/or fracturing/breaking/cracking (aka, dividing or bringing about the end of) the NW itself, which in turn could break and/or bring down the Wall, if Old Nan is to be believed.

Beyond the Wall the monsters live, the giants and the ghouls, the stalking shadows and the dead that walk, she would say, tucking him in beneath his scratchy woolen blanket, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night’s Watch are true.
- Old Nan; ASoS, Bran I

Also rather interestingly, a "chink" often lets in light; from the dictionary widget on my computer:

a narrow opening or crack, typically one that admits light : a chink in the curtains.

• a narrow beam or patch of light admitted by such an opening : I noticed a chink of light under the door.

When I read the word light, -- especially in relation to Jon Snow -- I almost automatically think of Lightbringer. A connection that is possibly alluded to in some of the other blue rose symbolism. Assuming I've got the right idea so far, here is a possible translation:

A blue flower grew1from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.2

Jon fulfills his destiny, becoming the prophesied hero1 -- AAr/tPtwP/LB(?) -- following, and as a direct result of, the (successful?) assasination attempt in ADwD. Which itself is the result of, or may result in, the division and eventual, though perhaps temporary, dissolution of the NW. -Thereby ending winter and beginning spring.2

ETA: The fact that Jon is symbolized by the winter rose, means that he can bloom or "grow" during the winter, which is exactly what Westeros is going to need from their promised hero. After all, a hero symbolized by a rose that can't survive the winter would seem to lack the symbolic qualifications for the job.

1 & 2 are bolded as they seem to work in tandem to signal the end of winter/start of spring; e.g., "A blue flower grew [...] and filled the air with sweetness." -symbolically relevant beyond just the names of the seasons. By any definition, the end of winter/beginning of spring is supposed to be a good thing for the humans, and the word "sweetness" itself reaffirms that idea.

Though certainly not mutually exclusive to the above interpretation, I would like to specifically point out that blooming flowers are identified with the spring season, which itself is symbolic of "rebirth." So, the line as a whole could be read as foretelling of Jon's literal rebirth following his actual death, at the hands of some of his black brothers.

The actual death/literal rebirth -- aka, Messianic -- angle implied here is also possibly hinted at in a couple of other blue rose scenes. For example, Lyanna's crown of roses, which might remind of Jesus' crown of thorns, since roses come equipped with them. In fact, when Ned reaches for the crown of winter roses in Eddard XV, he finds that there are thorns hidden beneath the rose petals. In Eddard XIII, Lyanna's statue cries tears of blood, which is one version of the stigmata. So, this is almost starting to look like a pattern. As I tend to think it does when the same idea is hinted at on multiple occasions.

As previously mentioned, the "...from a chink in a wall of ice, ..." part could also tie into, or hint at, Lightbringer.

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I always enjoy your posts. Once again brilliant.


Thank you. I'm honored :)

---

I think one aspect of this theory that I haven't really emphasized, possibly because I just take it for granted, is that the blue rose symbolism often hints at, or points to some of the same things we think have happened, or think will happen. Because those things are predicted and/or hinted at by other theories, thereby adding credibility to both, or all.

In the analysis for "the moment when all the smiles died," I pointed out that the version of the word laurel that is used means honor, or honors won. As far as I can tell, there are two different plausible readings of this line, though the most likely interpretation is a combination of both, imo:
  • Rhaegar crowned Lyanna in order to acknowledge her deeds as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, or;
  • Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as a gesture of his romantic love for her.

Rhaegar's act of placing the crown of winter roses in Lyanna's lap was, by definition, a way of honoring her. Since he honored Lyanna by placing the crown of roses in her lap, it seems unlikely that he dishonored her when he placed Jon Snow in her "lap," according to my reading of the line. In other words, Jon's conception must have been honorable, which seems to preclude the possibility that he is R&L's bastard. Because putting a bastard in the belly of a highborn maiden is the very definition of dishonoring her. So this theory seems to be making a strong case in favor of Jon's legitimacy at birth, as honorable conception means married conception.

Even though Rhaegar did honor Lyanna when he crowned her the QoLaB, by placing the laurel in her lap, it was a controversial act. One that appears to have a symbolic parallel, if you apply my J=BR "formula" to it. So, even though Rhaegar did honor (re: married) Lyanna when he placed Jon in her lap, that act -- which necessitated Rhaegar taking a second wife -- also would have been controversial, because polygamous marriage hadn't been practiced by the Targaryens for decades, however; there was one very prominent precedent in the form of Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters. That precedent means the marriage, though controversial, was entirely legal and valid, as plural marriage was never outlawed. So In both cases, Rhaegar's method of honoring Lyanna was controversial, or surely would have been if the marriage had become public knowledge.

Are there any independent clues or theories in the story that point to Jon's legitimacy in the same way as my theory? Why yes. Quite a few, actually. Aside from the oft mentioned ToJ scene, plenty can be found in Apple Martini's well known thread, A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up and its sequel.

Another example of this theory predicting something that is hinted at elsewhere was touched upon in the previous post; i.e., that my reading of the blue rose symbolism contains some possible, and other definite, references to the Western World's most well known messiah/savior figure; Jesus Christ. (Btw, in addition to what was already mentioned, blue roses are sometimes referred to as the "holy grail" of flowers in the real world, which is possibly another messianic reference.)

According to my theory, repeatedly linking blue roses and Jesus/messiah/savior, etc. means that GRRM is repeatedly linking Jon with a messiah/savior figure. This seems relevant since Jon was voted "Most likely to be the Messiah" in high school. ;) But by no means is this a popularity contest, as there are lots of good supporting arguments.

This includes, but is certainly not limited to, the theory about the symbolic meaning of Rhaegar's rubies, which a few of us worked out a while back. The conclusion being that Jon is almost certainly the PtwP. So once again, we have at least one credible theory making the same prediction as J=BR; i.e., both suggest that Jon is the savior/messiah/PtwP.

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I prefer to stay out of the whole R+L=J true/false debate, as I'd prefer actual fact to pure speculation, but I feel that I have to add something that caught my attention while re-reading aGoT:

p.380 (aGoT)

...Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

Until now, it appeared that Ned had just made one promise to Lyanna- that he would return her bones to Winterfell so she could be with her father and brother. However, it states here that there was more than one promise, which leaves us with the question of what the other promises were. It could have been anything, and while this could be shown as evidence for the R+L=J theory, further down on the page Ned thinks:

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.”

This could mean that Ned is Jon's father, and is thinking about him as he has just visited one of Robert's bastards. However, it could have a more complicated meaning, as wouldn't it be obvious that the son of Ned would look like Ned himself?

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Dany's HotU vision, from Daenerys IV:

Initially I dismissed this soley as GRRM's way of establishing a direct link between Jon and the blue rose; i.e., without Lyanna as a middleman (middlemaid?). However, I think there could be a little more to it, or perhaps even a lot more to it.

"Chink," in this instance, literally means things like crack or opening. But of course there is the phrase "a chink in the armor." And a chink in your armor makes you vulnerable to attack, which has interesting ramifications for the NW at large. But if we're looking for a specific event, Jon was attacked near the end of ADwD. Which means he was "vulnerable" to attack, prior to it happening.

The fact that this assassination attempt was carried out by some of his black brothers would seem to strengthen the connection to this specific incident, since attacking your Lord Commander could result in the use of words that are synonymous with "chink"; i.e., crack, fracture, break etc. So, maybe oath breaking, and/or fracturing/breaking/cracking (aka, dividing or bringing about the end of) the NW itself, which in turn could break and/or bring down the Wall, if Old Nan is to be believed. - Old Nan; ASoS, Bran I

Also rather interestingly, a "chink" often lets in light; from the dictionary widget on my computer:

When I read the word light, -- especially in relation to Jon Snow -- I almost automatically think of Lightbringer. A connection that is possibly alluded to in some of the other blue rose symbolism. Assuming I've got the right idea so far, here is a possible translation:

A blue flower grew1from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.2

Jon fulfills his destiny, becoming the prophesied hero1 -- AAr/tPtwP/LB(?) -- following, and as a direct result of, the (successful?) assasination attempt in ADwD. Which itself is the result of, or may result in, the division and eventual, though perhaps temporary, dissolution of the NW. -Thereby ending winter and beginning spring.2

The fact that Jon is symbolized by the winter rose, means that he can bloom or "grow" during the winter, which is exactly what Westeros is going to need from their promised hero. After all, a hero symbolized by a rose that can't survive the winter would seem to lack the symbolic qualifications for the job.

1 & 2 are bolded as they seem to work in tandem to signal the end of winter/start of spring; e.g., "A blue flower grew [...] and filled the air with sweetness." -symbolically relevant beyond just the names of the seasons. By any definition, the end of winter/beginning of spring is supposed to be a good thing for the humans, and the word "sweetness" itself reaffirms that idea.

Though certainly not mutually exclusive to the above interpretation, I would like to specifically point out that blooming flowers are identified with the spring season, which itself is symbolic of "rebirth." So, the line as a whole could be read as foretelling of Jon's literal rebirth following his actual death, at the hands of some brothers of the NW.

The actual death/literal rebirth -- aka, Messianic -- angle implied here is also possibly hinted at in a couple of other blue rose scenes. For example, Lyanna's crown of roses, which might remind of Jesus' crown of thorns, since roses come equipped with them. In fact, when Ned reaches for the crown of winter roses in Eddard XV, he finds that there are thorns hidden beneath the rose petals. In Eddard XIII, Lyanna's statue cries tears of blood, which is one version of the stigmata. So, this is almost starting to look like a pattern. As I tend to think it does when the same idea is hinted at on multiple occasions.

As previously mentioned, the "...from a chink in a wall of ice, ..." part could also tie into, or hint at, Lightbringer.

I hadn't made this connection - thank you for this thread! I had always wondered why it was a blue flower in a wall of ice that Dany saw, but the concept of a blue rose representing Jon makes perfect sense in this context.

This also does seem to confirm that Jon is Dany's intended third marriage (ignoring the marriage of convenience to Hizadhr) and her last, and indeed, if R+L=J, a marriage to Dany would serve to cement his claim to the IT and 7K

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i like that you really interpreted the symbolism like back in school. the being fond of comparison needs to be overthought, but you did a pretty good job. thumbs up


Thanks. :)

Wrt to the analysis of "fond," the connection there is not its meaning, but its purpose. In both cases, "fond" is a euphemism, a placeholder for things that Ned and Barristan would rather leave unsaid. Ned wants to be able to hide the truth from Robert without directly lying to him. Though I have not read ADwD yet myself, I am under the impression that Barristan isn't exactly blunt with Dany about things that happened prior to the Rebellion.



I prefer to stay out of the whole R+L=J true/false debate, as I'd prefer actual fact to pure speculation, but I feel that I have to add something that caught my attention while re-reading aGoT:

p.380 (aGoT)

...Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

Until now, it appeared that Ned had just made one promise to Lyanna- that he would return her bones to Winterfell so she could be with her father and brother. However, it states here that there was more than one promise, which leaves us with the question of what the other promises were. It could have been anything, and while this could be shown as evidence for the R+L=J theory, further down on the page Ned thinks:

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.”

This could mean that Ned is Jon's father, and is thinking about him as he has just visited one of Robert's bastards. However, it could have a more complicated meaning, as wouldn't it be obvious that the son of Ned would look like Ned himself?


Thanks for the input, but this isn't really the place to debate R+L=J. This theory assumes that one to be true with every last letter of its being. :)



I hadn't made this connection - thank you for this thread! I had always wondered why it was a blue flower in a wall of ice that Dany saw, but the concept of a blue rose representing Jon makes perfect sense in this context.

This also does seem to confirm that Jon is Dany's intended third marriage (ignoring the marriage of convenience to Hizadhr) and her last, and indeed, if R+L=J, a marriage to Dany would serve to cement his claim to the IT and 7K


In the following Daenerys chapter, Ser Jorah calls it a blue rose. They probably discussed it off page.

“A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood... what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer’s dragon, you said. What is a mummer’s dragon, pray?”
“A cloth dragon on poles,” Dany explained. “Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight.”


Wrt to your last paragraph, I'm not sure I completely understand. Can you elaborate?



Wow, just wow... You put a lot of time and consideration into this thread.


It's the least I could do, since the OP is almost a novella. ;)

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I prefer to stay out of the whole R+L=J true/false debate, as I'd prefer actual fact to pure speculation, but I feel that I have to add something that caught my attention while re-reading aGoT:

p.380 (aGoT)

...Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

Until now, it appeared that Ned had just made one promise to Lyanna- that he would return her bones to Winterfell so she could be with her father and brother. However, it states here that there was more than one promise, which leaves us with the question of what the other promises were. It could have been anything, and while this could be shown as evidence for the R+L=J theory, further down on the page Ned thinks:

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.”

This could mean that Ned is Jon's father, and is thinking about him as he has just visited one of Robert's bastards. However, it could have a more complicated meaning, as wouldn't it be obvious that the son of Ned would look like Ned himself?

Concerning the nature of the promises, you can check this post of mine in the current R+L thread, http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91992-rlj-v54/page__st__220#entry4720209, and continue the discussion there :-)

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From Eddard XIII:

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned, “ Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

I've connected the bold part to stigmata imagery already, but another possibility occurred to me the other day; that weirwood trees appear to be crying tears of blood. This certainly suggests a connection to the old gods. I'd say it might point to the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in front of a weirwood.

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From Eddard XIII:

I've connected the bold part to stigmata imagery already, but another possibility occurred to me the other day; that weirwood trees appear to be crying tears of blood. This certainly suggests a connection to the old gods. I'd say it might point to the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in front of a weirwood.

You've clearly thought more, and more deeply about this than I can or care too, but I would have one question of all the R+L=J hypothesists. In the appendix, Jon Snow is listed as Ned's son. If R+L=J, that is essentially a lie, coming as it does not from a POV which can be fudged, but from the author himself . . .

Is there a precedent he's set for doing that? I mean, I get all the clues and hints (nudge, nudge. wink, wink.), but is it not possible that all those are false leads or just background info?

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You've clearly thought more, and more deeply about this than I can or care too, but I would have one question of all the R+L=J hypothesists. In the appendix, Jon Snow is listed as Ned's son. If R+L=J, that is essentially a lie, coming as it does not from a POV which can be fudged, but from the author himself . . .

Is there a precedent he's set for doing that? I mean, I get all the clues and hints (nudge, nudge. wink, wink.), but is it not possible that all those are false leads or just background info?

You seriously think he'd confirm something like that in an appendix?

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You've clearly thought more, and more deeply about this than I can or care too, but I would have one question of all the R+L=J hypothesists. In the appendix, Jon Snow is listed as Ned's son. If R+L=J, that is essentially a lie, coming as it does not from a POV which can be fudged, but from the author himself . . .

Is there a precedent he's set for doing that? I mean, I get all the clues and hints (nudge, nudge. wink, wink.), but is it not possible that all those are false leads or just background info?

You seriously think he'd confirm something like that in an appendix?

^This. Also, Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are listed under House Baratheon in the appendix. And we've been told in story that they're Cersei and Jaime's children.

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^This. Also, Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are listed under House Baratheon in the appendix. And we've been told in story that they're Cersei and Jaime's children.

That's true, I had noticed that then forgot.

Still I have tried to think of another instance in the book where one of the surprises was proceeded by so many hints and clues - GRRM doesn't seem to do that.

I know I'm simplifying things, but GRRM's style seems to be to mislead and surprise - he does not want you to know what's coming up. I realize that's just his overarching m.o. and maybe the surprise is that in that one instance he does drop a few bread crumbs in the forest first.

And one more thing, the mystery of Robert's children does not make it through the first book - it's blatantly obvious. Jon Snow's parentage if different from what's stated is more subtle by several orders of magnitude.

One more thing: why is Cersei referred to throughout the books as Cersei Lannister? I don't think she's called Cersei Baratheon anywhere in the books - and ASOIAF is supposed to be so real.

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You seriously think he'd confirm something like that in an appendix?

It has been been done before, tho' not by GRRM as far as I know. (The infamous example is from The Wheel of Time.)

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