Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone

[J. Stargaryen]

The words 'came back' definitely works for what I was saying. They were 'missing', then they 'came back'.

The Flint's live in the mountians, they refer to themselves as a 'clan', have a ton of the BOtFM, admittedly live closer to the wildling lifestyle than a family like the Starks. Rodrik Flint tried and failed to become King above the Wall, meaning king of the Wildlings. Also they have been raided by the wildlings many times and have had women carried off, there are many crossovers with the wildlings in the Flint family.

Rodrik Flint was LC of the NW when he tried to become King-Beyond-the-Wall, so it had nothing to do with his family. Having some of their women carried off by wildlings does not give the Flint clan wildling blood. It only means that there probably have been wildlings with Flint blood. Is there something I'm forgetting? If not, I don't see how this is a debatable point. Flint =/= wildling, and any theory based on that premise is flawed.

[lakin1013]

J. Stargaryen Really interesting theory about Jon and the BWR and an interesting thread. You have provided good material to think about. ty.

[ipsuel]

I just found/read this thread today (in it's entirety). Personally, I've always associated blue roses with Jon/Lyanna/Rhaegar but to see it all put together here is nothing short of impressive!

Going back to an earlier comment about the 'blue rose growing from a chink in wall' and 'the smell of sweetness'... I love the idea that sweetness may relate to death...

If that's the case -- then the TV version of the HotU, (which I hated because I felt like the blue flower was ignored), which showed Dany going through the Wall to Drogo/Rhaego was intended to mean her death will occur at the Wall.

And it was just a somewhat-cryptic visual attempt to support the somewhat-cryptic: "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness."

[Weirdo]

...

ACoK, Daenerys:

-Daenerys IV (HotU)

Probably one of the key passages in the entire series, from arguably the most confounding section. The blue flower in the HotU signaled to many readers the nature of the blue rose symbolism, and has served as a key piece of R+L=J evidence ever since. But there is probably more to it.

For starters, I'm assuming the events at the end of Jon's Dance arc and the HotU phrasing are not a coincidence. Specifically, the assassination attempt on the LC by brothers of the NW could well symbolize a "crack" in the Wall; ...chink in a wall of ice.

Further, that it's this "crack in the Wall" that allows, or probably more accurately, causes Jon to learn who he is and become who or what he's meant to be; A blue flower grew from a chink in the wall of ice.

The last part, filling the air with sweetness, seems relatively straightforward and maybe even harmless. Though, a while back, an alarming correlation between sweet(ness) and bad things, especially in Dany's chapters, was discovered. Even if you accept the sweet(ness) as negative premise, and believe it applies here, you can interpret it in so many different ways that it doesn't tell us much. (e.g., Jon and Dany fall in love, have a baby but Dany dies in child birth = sweetness as a negative. Dany and Jon fight on opposing sides = sweetness as a negative. And so on.) In fact, the answer will most likely only be clear almost immediately beforehand or in retrospect. - Sweetness as a Negative.

- Daenerys V

Aside from affirming that the blue flower in the HotU was in fact a blue rose, the latter quote serves little other purpose, as far as I can tell, and is presented without additional comment.

---

Love a good close reading, thanks. After reading your post, my thought on the chink in the wall is that it could represent an ice cell where they lay Jon's body after the assassination, and where he may be resurrected, perhaps with more self-knowledge, perhaps set, by circumstances, on a new path that will lead him toward his destiny of Targaryenism.

And the sweet smell, applying the negative connotation of sweetness, could be the sweet smell of death.

[J. Stargaryen]

I just found/read this thread today (in it's entirety). Personally, I've always associated blue roses with Jon/Lyanna/Rhaegar but to see it all put together here is nothing short of impressive!

Going back to an earlier comment about the 'blue rose growing from a chink in wall' and 'the smell of sweetness'... I love the idea that sweetness may relate to death...

If that's the case -- then the TV version of the HotU, (which I hated because I felt like the blue flower was ignored), which showed Dany going through the Wall to Drogo/Rhaego was intended to mean her death will occur at the Wall.

And it was just a somewhat-cryptic visual attempt to support the somewhat-cryptic: "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness."

It's been fascinating to me to see how many people understand the symbolism, compared with how many think it's a big reach or whatever. And not just this thread, but across the forums. There are plenty who adhere to the blue roses = Lyanna only interpretation.

The sweetness thing has been something I've wondered about ever since danm_99 came up with the Sweetness as a Negative thread a while back. If it is meant to be a negative here, I wonder how. It could work in so many different ways that I'm not sure.

Btw, a blue rose of sorts does appear in the show!HotU. Link. You can see one of these windows when Dany is in the throne room.

Love a good close reading, thanks. After reading your post, my thought on the chink in the wall is that it could represent an ice cell where they lay Jon's body after the assassination, and where he may be resurrected, perhaps with more self-knowledge, perhaps set, by circumstances, on a new path that will lead him toward his destiny of Targaryenism.

And the sweet smell, applying the negative connotation of sweetness, could be the sweet smell of death.

You might be interested to know that this is a somewhat popular idea around here.

J. Stargaryen Really interesting theory about Jon and the BWR and an interesting thread. You have provided good material to think about. ty.

Thanks. Glad you guys liked it. :cheers:

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Btw, I expanded a bit on the moment when all the smiles died in a different thread, which I've c+p'd below.

The way I interpret this scene is as a metaphor for Jon's conception. If that's true, the crown of winter roses itself could be said to represent Jon. Just look at how GRRM chose to describe it: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. Snow, frost... just sayin'.

Btw, a crown of winter roses neatly combines elements of both Rhaegar and Lyanna. He's royalty, the heir to the throne. So that accounts for the crown aspect. And the flowers are connected to a Stark maiden via Bael's song o' the winter rose. Prince Rhaegar. Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Crown of winter roses. Wouldn't you know it, that fits perfectly with the notion that the crown symbolizes Jon Snow. After all, he is the result of Rhaegar and Lyanna 'combining', if you will. ...a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Getting back to the thorns. "Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden." I think we're initially supposed to read this as describing the literal crown, and realize how everything — Robert's Rebellion, the deaths of Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna Stark — can be traced back to that act. But it also seems to me that reading the flowery crown as a symbolic placeholder for Jon fits nicely with what we (think we) know. Let's take a look.

In Ned's memory/dream Rhaegar places the crown in Lyanna's lap (with the tip of his lance - TWoIaF), symbolizing the conception. A crown of winter roses: blue as frost. R+L=Jon Snow. Then Ned reaches out to grasp the flowery crown. Now, compare that to what R+L=J proposes. After giving birth to Jon, Lyanna dies from childbed fever. But not before securing a promise from Ned which results in him taking possession of Jon and raising him as his own bastard. But this promise came with consequences, which fits the with "every rose has its thorn" proverb. In fact, that's true for both interpretations. Regarding "consequences" there is, e.g., "Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night." - AGoT, Eddard II.

[The Great Cornholio!]

I like your analysis J. Stargaryaen. I'd like to add that blue roses in the real world are not naturally occuring. Their actually dyed white roses. I feel like this is very anagalous for Jon.

[J. Stargaryen]

I like your analysis J. Stargaryaen. I'd like to add that blue roses in the real world are not naturally occuring. Their actually dyed white roses. I feel like this is very anagalous for Jon.

Thank you. I just saw this message, since we can finally check our content.

[The Jon]

...
Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. THEY had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his.
...

Sorry if this is off-topic, and I probably sound like a noob, but this was my first time realizing "they" had found Ned still holding her body. This whole time I thought it was just Howland that had discovered Ned, and I guess my first thought was that it was Wylla, who we know was Jon's milk mother. But the fact that whoever was with Howland was outside of the room, is this why people think Arthur Dayne is still alive? I guess it's perfectly reasonable that Wylla could've been asked to leave the room while Ned tended to Lyanna, but also kind of leaves it a mystery who that other person could've been. I definitely need a re-read (I just started this thread, but it definitely piqued my interest and will make sure to finish, thanks for the interesting post!).

[The Jon]

I think you both have the right of it, though one thing that you both aren't touching on is the moment Ned find's Lyanna in her child(death)bed, when her hand lets sprinkle the dead, black petals to the floor of her room. This could be a way of showing how when once this blooming flower symbolized a Stark maiden, it no longer could be seen as such considering she has lost her maidenhead and has brought a child to term in her womb. At that point in time, the dead, black petals symbolized Lyanna, with every occurrence after this event of blue roses or blue winter roses meaning Jon.

I also interpret Ned telling Robert how he regularly brings flowers (presumably the blue winter roses) to Lyanna's tomb, he was actually speaking about Jon. We already know that the Stark children and the Snow child played in the crypt when all were younger, though we are not told if this was in any way a tradition amongst other Stark children/siblings. If not, then perhaps Ned allowed his children this activity, without himself or Catelyn, to let his sister look on the life that Jon had. When they weren't being watched by a very possessive mother, the children of Ned Stark and the child of Lyanna Stark were able to have some semblance of familial bonding.

Some might say, 'but we often see or hear of this sort of bond between the Starks and the Snow,' but it is, to my recollection, the only time when all six Stark-blooded children share in their fun. A lot of instances are seen with Jon and Bran, Jon and Robb, Jon and Rickon, even, but almost nothing of Jon and Sansa. And, while it wasn't Jon's best moment in Sansa's eyes, all six children were united in their game (I apologize for this paragraph, but one of the most interesting dynamics in literature, film, or television for me is the analysis of characters that have limited interactions with one another; even more so than characters that have obviously fluid, and often very engaging, relationships with one another).

I really like this! Especially the second paragraph!

[The Jon]

Sorry I keep getting more thoughts after reading more of your thread. I think you were getting at it when you described Rhaegar using his lance to place the crown/laurel on Lyanna's lap. Is it just me or does this suggest a bit of sexual imagery, as a lance can be seen/thought of as a phallus, and the placement of the crown/laurel?

[J. Stargaryen]

Sorry if this is off-topic, and I probably sound like a noob, but this was my first time realizing "they" had found Ned still holding her body. This whole time I thought it was just Howland that had discovered Ned, and I guess my first thought was that it was Wylla, who we know was Jon's milk mother. But the fact that whoever was with Howland was outside of the room, is this why people think Arthur Dayne is still alive? I guess it's perfectly reasonable that Wylla could've been asked to leave the room while Ned tended to Lyanna, but also kind of leaves it a mystery who that other person could've been. I definitely need a re-read (I just started this thread, but it definitely piqued my interest and will make sure to finish, thanks for the interesting post!).

 

The "they" that you refer to is definitely a mystery. I believe some people do use it as part of their argument that Arthur Dayne is still alive. GRRM ruled this out pretty definitively at a con recently. I don't recall the exact wording, but it was something along the lines of Ned and Howland being the only men to ride away.

 

Sorry I keep getting more thoughts after reading more of your thread. I think you were getting at it when you described Rhaegar using his lance to place the crown/laurel on Lyanna's lap. Is it just me or does this suggest a bit of sexual imagery, as a lance can be seen/thought of as a phallus, and the placement of the crown/laurel?

 

Absolutely.

[The Jon]

The "they" that you refer to is definitely a mystery. I believe some people do use it as part of their argument that Arthur Dayne is still alive. GRRM ruled this out pretty definitively at a con recently. I don't recall the exact wording, but it was something along the lines of Ned and Howland being the only men to ride away.
 
Absolutely.

Hmm, the only "men" to ride away? And I'm glad you seem to agree about that second point, I thought I might've been going into left field quite too far for a second.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Like the well known Rosetta Stone, ASoIaF's blue winter roses help to decipher what otherwise might have been a mystery. In this case, Jon Snow's true identity as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

 

Before we get to the analysis, there are a couple of issues I want to address. The first being what I consider to be the biggest misunderstanding about the blue roses, and the second on where I think they might be most useful in arguing R+L=J.

 

1) Probably the most common misconception regarding Lyanna's blue roses is that they symbolize (only) her. While that connection is the most obvious, I think there is more to it. In fact, I believe the obviousness of this connection is an intentional misdirection, wherein GRRM used a kind of cognitive bias against the reader.

 

In AGoT the flowers only appear in Ned's POVs, and only when he thinks about his sister. This fact conditions us to connect the flowers to her and, in many cases, only her. It's a clever (re: tricky) way to obscure their true meaning. That way, by the time we read Ned's final chapter, and find out that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the crown of winter roses at Harrenhal, we have already (mis)learned that the flowers symbolize Lyanna. Which makes it easy to ignore the actual significance and symbolism of that particular reveal. Lyanna's roses were given to her by Rhaegar Targaryen. Which leads to the next point.

 

2) Every now and then a debate will arise regarding the certainty of Jon's paternity, whilst conceding the maternity; i.e., ?+L=J. The answer to which is: trace Lyanna's blue roses back to their origin. Chronologically, their first appearance was the QoLaB's crowning at the Harrenhal tourney in 281AC. This turns out to be the key piece of information needed to understand Ned's recurring thoughts and dreams, about his sister and her blue roses. It provides the context: Lyanna's roses were given to her by Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

(A quick note regarding real world blue rose symbolism. "The meaning of the blue rose is about mystery [as in; who is Jon Snow's mother?] or attaining the impossible. The blue rose is also used as a symbol of love at first sight [R+L?]. The blue coloring also represents royal blood [which Jon receives from his father] so it can represent splendor and regal majesty.")

 

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AGoT, Eddard:
 

- Eddard I

 

[spoiler]Found in Ned’s first chapter, the phrase “blood and roses” conveys quite a bit of information, once you know what you’re looking at. But to understand exactly why this early reference means what it does we must look ahead. In Eddard X, Ned remembers Lyanna in her “bed of blood” which we know means birthing bed thanks to MMD. In Eddard XV, we learn where Lyanna’s roses come from. Rhaegar Targaryen named her the QoLaB when he placed a crown of winter roses in her lap, following his victory in the joust at the Harrenhal tourney.

So, “blood and roses” looks like shorthand for “bed of blood” and “crown of winter roses" to me. The former means childbirth, while the latter connects Rhaegar to Lyanna. In other words, it tells us that Lyanna had given birth, and the baby's father was Rhaegar.

 

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I can't help but feel that "dead and black" foreshadows the Ides of Marsh. Especially if it really kills Jon, at least temporarily. In which case he'll be a dead black brother.

 

When Ned agreed to Lyanna's promise, it allowed her to stop fighting and give up her hold on life, which led to her dropping the dead and black rose petals. But also, by agreeing to that promise, Ned set Jon on a path that eventually led to the Wall, which then eventually led to the IoM (possibly dead and definitely black). So, it looks like there is a good chance GRRM is using these rose petals to foreshadow Jon Snow's future. Petals that most likely came from the crown of winter roses.

 

---

 

“I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was... fond of flowers.”

 

We know that Lyanna is associated with the winter roses. And while all roses are flowers, not all flowers are roses. So we are left to wonder if these flowers are roses. I don't know for sure which flowers Ned actually brings her, but I am 99.9% sure that GRRM is using Lyanna + flowers to at least imply winter roses in the subtext. Supporting analysis and examples here and here. (Short version: GRRM occasionally substitutes "flower" for "rose," and will also do things like e.g. use "flower" + "blue" to imply blue rose.)

 

“Lyanna was... fond of flowers.”

 

It wasn't only GRRM who was being subtle in using "flowers" instead of "roses." Notice the ellipsis before Ned finishes his thought. He surely knew better than to tell Robert that Lyanna was fond of roses. You know, like the ones Rhaegar gave her. The way "fond" is used here reminds of something I read in ADwD: The old knight [Ser Barristan] hesitated. “Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her.”
Fond, thought Dany. The word spoke volumes. I could become fond of Hizdahr zo Loraq, in time. Perhaps. - ADwD, Daenerys IV

Rather than tell outright lies to their lieges, Ned and Ser Barristan prefer to tell as little truth as possible. Softening the potential blow as best they can.[/spoiler]

 

-Eddard X

 

[spoiler]Importantly, this is the first mention of the flower's color. Credit to Ygrain for pointing that out.

 

Storm symbolism is fairly common in literature, from King Lear to I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. Shakespeare and Maya Angelou used thunderstorms to represent the inner turmoil of characters. Though not called a thunderstorm, Ned's troubled dream at least partly lends itself to that interpretation. But storms also can symbolize other things, like conflict.That interpretation also fits Ned's dream, given the battle at the ToJ, not to mention the blood spilled during Robert's Rebellion, which can be traced back to the crowning of Lyanna at the Harrenhal tourney. In fact, the conflict itself could be the cause of much of Ned's inner turmoil. Recall Ned's sadness when telling Bran about Ser Arthur Dayne - ACoK, Bran III.

 

But it's not just a storm. Rather, it's a storm of [blue] rose petals. That being the case, I can't see any good reason to view these petals as coming from anywhere other than the Harrenhal crown, given to Lyanna by Rhaegar. And if that crown, and therefore those petals, symbolize Jon Snow, then GRRM might be saying that the bloody, deadly conflict was fought over Jon. An interpretation which fits quite well with what we think happened.

 

But there is one other interpretation that comes to mind concerning "storm," at least for me. In all likelihood, Jon was born at the tower. And the use of storm reminds me that GRRM has named Dany, Daenerys Stormborn.

 

When viewed in this light, the sentence seems to relate Jon's birth—A storm of [blue] rose petals—with blood and death. This looks like an accurate version of events, considering that Jon's birth indirectly caused the deaths of his mother, three KG knights, and five Northerners, not to mention the entire chain of events that led to Robert's Rebellion.[/spoiler]

 

-Eddard XII

 

[spoiler]This is from the meeting between Ned and Cersei in the godswood of the Red Keep. A meeting which is motivated by Ned's intent to confront Cersei regarding her bastard children, and his desire to protect them from Robert's wrath. The emphasis in this part of the chapter is placed on children, both in Ned's inner monologue and the dialogue with Cersei.

 

How do the blue roses fit here? Why do they come up now? Considering that GRRM beats us over the head with the children theme, it makes sense in this context for Ned to think of pale blue roses when Cersei says his sister's name out loud. Because, what began at HH with a crown of winter roses, ended at the ToJ with Lyanna giving birth to her child, and securing a promise from Ned.[/spoiler]

 

-Eddard XIII

 

[spoiler]Lyanna's statue is crying tears of blood, which has been established in-story as something the faces on the weirwood trees appear to be doing, due to their red sap. This weirwood connection reminds me again of the HH tourney, where (most people believe) Lyanna posed as the Knight of the Laughing Tree; a knight whose device was a weirwood tree with a laughing face. Reinforcing the connection to HH, the crown of winter roses that Rhaegar placed in her lap sits upon her statue's head.

It's probably also worth mentioning that tears of blood can be a form of the stigmata. With that in mind, one wonders if Lyanna's crown of roses isn't supposed to remind us of Jesus' crown of thorns. Every rose has its thorn, they say.[/spoiler]

 

Let's revisit The Moment When All the Smiles Died, from Eddard XV, because there is an addendum which belongs here, I think.

 

 

[spoiler]*TWoIaF confirmed what some had been suspected before, that Rhaegar used his lance to place the crown of winter roses in Lyanna's lap. The inclusion of the lance definitely serves to strengthen the conception metaphor, for obvious reasons. Especially when contrasted with the TotH, where Ser Loras handed Sansa a red rose.*

 

When I read this passage, I see an incredibly strong metaphor for the story of Jon Snow's conception. Assuming my interpretation is correct, I believe it constitutes some of the best R+L=J evidence out there. Here's what I mean.

The story of Jon's conception (re: the metaphor) begins when Rhaegar urges his horse past Elia, but I'm not going to start there. I want to start with the last part describing the crown. It's a crown of blue winter roses. This is important to understand because I believe that blue winter roses symbolize Jon Snow. Now, not fundamentally important to the theory, but interesting to note, is that the logical continuation of this metaphor - that is, a crown of blue winter roses - hints at Jon's royal blood and/or his royal future the same way a crown of golden lions would for a Lannister, or a crown of silver trout would for a Tully.

Okay, now back to the beginning. Like I was saying, the 'story' begins when Rhaegar urges his horse past Elia. This act mirrors his later romantic snub of her. In both cases he does so in favor of Lyanna. In other words, he twice chooses Lyanna Stark over his own wife; first when naming the QoLaB at Harrenhal, and then when he makes off with her for the ToJ.

The first choice is made when Rhaegar lays the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. An act which seems to simultaneously predict and confirm R+L=J. The item itself and its placement seem highly suggestive to me. The aforementioned crown of blue winter roses - aka, Jon Snow - is placed in his mother's lap. You guys know where babies come from, right? So if what I've said above is correct, the metaphor seems to say that Rhaegar spurned Elia in favor of Lyanna. He then placed Jon Snow in Lyanna's lap womb.

For bonus points, the description of the crown as a 'laurel' works as a clue that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. The word laurel literally describes the crown, while it figuratively represents honor. The notion of Rhaegar honoring Lyanna by placing Jon Snow in her lap probably contradicts the idea of Jon's bastardy. If not, giving birth to Jon Snow could turn out to be a tremendous honor, provided his character turns out to be the king/hero/messiah figure he's in line to be. Again, not necessarily of fundamental importance, but something worth noting.[/spoiler]

 

 

[spoiler]As it does in the previous quote, the flowery crown works well here as a symbolic representation of Jon, who is taken in by Ned and raised as his own; grasp. But for the honorable Ned Stark, the secrets and lies have taken a toll on him mentally and emotionally, including directly impacting his relationships with Catelyn and Jon. It's also possible that raising Jon contributed to Ned's distance from Robert in the years following the rebellion. Perhaps Ned could have forgiven Robert for condoning the murder of Rhaegar's children, if he wasn't raising one himself.

 

Regarding the second bold portion, it seems to me like most people take this to mean that Lyanna had grown up loving the smell of winter roses. I'm not so sure. It seems just as likely, if not more so, that she came to love them sometime after Rhaegar placed a crown of them in her lap.[/spoiler]

 

ACoK, Theon:

 

- Theon XI

 

[spoiler]Theon describes Lyanna's gown as spattered with gore, which means bloodshed. Though the word usually indicates some type of violence, GRRM may simply be reinforcing the idea that birthing is a bloody and unpleasant business. But, as is the case with "blood-streaked sky," it's worth nothing all of the bloodshed associated with R&L's relationship and Jon's birth.

 

Something we don't see in the other passages is that Lyanna is wearing a white gown, which immediately brings to mind a wedding dress. A significant piece of information that is consistent with the notion that R&L married.

 

The crown of pale blue roses she is wearing seems to connect both of these events in a very familiar and satisfying way. If the gore (partially) represents giving birth, and the white gown means marriage, the crown of roses conveniently tells us who the husband and father of her child was. Rhaegar crowned her, married her, and impregnated her.[/spoiler]

 

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ACoK, Daenerys:

 

-Daenerys IV (HotU)

 

[spoiler]Probably one of the key passages in the entire series, from arguably the most confounding section. The blue flower in the HotU signaled to many readers the nature of the blue rose symbolism, and has served as a key piece of R+L=J evidence ever since. But there is probably more to it.

 

For starters, I'm assuming the events at the end of Jon's Dance arc and the HotU phrasing are not a coincidence. Specifically, the assassination attempt on the LC by brothers of the NW could well symbolize a "crack" in the Wall; ...chink in a wall of ice.

 

Further, that it's this "crack in the Wall" that allows, or probably more accurately, causes Jon to learn who he is and become who or what he's meant to be; A blue flower grew from a chink in the wall of ice.

 

The last part, filling the air with sweetness, seems relatively straightforward and maybe even harmless. Though, a while back, an alarming correlation between sweet(ness) and bad things, especially in Dany's chapters, was discovered. Even if you accept the sweet(ness) as negative premise, and believe it applies here, you can interpret it in so many different ways that it doesn't tell us much. (e.g., Jon and Dany fall in love, have a baby but Dany dies in child birth = sweetness as a negative. Dany and Jon fight on opposing sides = sweetness as a negative. And so on.) In fact, the answer will most likely only be clear almost immediately beforehand or in retrospect. - Sweetness as a Negative.[/spoiler]

 

- Daenerys V

 

Aside from affirming that the blue flower in the HotU was in fact a blue rose, the latter quote serves little other purpose, as far as I can tell, and is presented without additional comment.

 

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AFfC, Cersei:

 

- Cersei IX

 

[spoiler]I've posted analyses elsewhere (AFfC, Cersei V and AFfC, Cersei VIII) showing how some of Cersei's chapters in Feast contain linguistic callbacks to the tourney at Harrenhal and Robert's Rebellion, which are both closely intertwined with R+L=J. Further, on numerous occasions Cersei thinks of Prince Rhaegar, and how she was supposed to marry him, and have his sons. Though not as heavy handed as the other examples, I believe this is another allusion of sorts to R+L=J. In a way, history is kind-of-but-not-quite repeating itself.

 

Here we have a bard (Rhaegar's stand in) allegedly romantically involved with Margaery (Lyanna). Not only are both girls associated with roses, but it's not the first time GRRM has used House Tyrell + blue to insinuate blue roses into the subtext. As he had previously done with Margaery's brother, Ser Loras, during the Tourney of the Hand back in AGoT. Now, as then, GRRM uses a Tyrell + blue to create a just-beneath-the-surface reference to R+L=J. We also have this bit, a few paragraphs later:

 

 

 

 

Generally speaking, it reminds me of Rhaegar's melancholy nature. Specifically, it causes me to think of two lines in particular. "The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle." - ASoS, Bran II (KotLT story), and: “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.” - AGoT, Eddard IX (Lyanna to Ned).[/spoiler]

 

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The Song O' the Winter Rose; Bael, Rhaegar, Mance, R+L=J:
 

While Bael's song is largely viewed as a parallel for R+L=J, and rightly so in my opinion, some believe that Mance is Rhaegar in disguise, mostly based on the parallels between the two in ASoS, Jon I. This despite a number of issues, not the least of which is GRRM stating that "Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens." - Link. But I believe a more elegant explanation exists.

 

Taking the Mance-Rhaegar parallels in ASoS for granted, as I mostly agree with them, we have to explain why, In ADwD, Mance's story suddenly starts to resemble Bael the Bard's. Simply put, I believe GRRM is reinforcing the link between Rhaegar and Bael, through Mance's character. A link that already existed thanks to the similarities between the R+L=J story and the song o' the winter rose. (Both feature singers who stole Stark daughters and gave them sons. Bael even has the Targaryen-like "ae" letter combination in his name, etc.) So, while the Rhaegar-Mance connections do exist in my opinion, it's not because they're the same person. Rhaegar fought valiantly, nobly and honorably, and he died at the Trident.

 

This is, of course, the BtB story as it pertains to R+L=J. There are parts of the story connected to that tale; e.g., Baelish and Sansa.

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Thanks for reading.

I think that Eddard said he brings her flowers when he can, Lyanna was... fond of flowers simply means this.  He didn't say blue roses so that he wouldn't upset Robert unnecessarily.  Afterall, it was those damned blue roses at the tourney that caused all the smiles to die.

[J. Stargaryen]

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Hmm, the only "men" to ride away? And I'm glad you seem to agree about that second point, I thought I might've been going into left field quite too far for a second.

 

In fact, iirc, the point of the question was that the questioner had a theory about Arthur being alive.

 

The conception symbolism of the moment when all the smiles died was actually the inspiration for this thread.

 

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I think that Eddard said he brings her flowers when he can, Lyanna was... fond of flowers simply means this.  He didn't say blue roses so that he wouldn't upset Robert unnecessarily.  Afterall, it was those damned blue roses at the tourney that caused all the smiles to die.

 

Agreed. Which is why I make that same point in that section, though I worded it differently.