Rereading Tyrion VI (ADWD)

[Winterfellian]

I think there is a theme of deconstructing the fable/myth into the reality present in this chapter. Jorah tells Tyrion: I thought Lannisters always paid their debts, which is a myth so engrained in Westerosi mentality (and for what we have seen even in Essos too) that it has people killing dwarves all around in an effort to collect a debt from the Lannisters. But Tyrion rightly tells Jorah the reality behind the myth:

Oh every penny…but never a groat more my lord. You’ll get the meal you bargained for, but it won’t be sauced with gratitude, and in the end it will not nourish you.

Then we have Tyrion musing on the famous myths surrounding Old Volantis:

Proud Volantis. Queen of the Rhoyne and mistress of the summer sea. Home to noble lords and noble ladies of the most ancient blood……..Mighty Volantis, grandest and most populous of the nine free cities……Beautiful Volantis, city of mountains and flowers.

But much like the myth surrounding the Lannisters and their debts, the reality is quite contrasting. There are packs of naked children roaming the alleys, there might be lords and ladies of ancient blood but the majority of the population is constituted by slaves, the city smells like an old whore and much of it has sank into the mud, etc. Volantis isn't the beautiful city from the stories, no more than the widow of the waterfront is a seemingly harmless old woman.

Until is Tyrion himself that becomes deconstructed from the myth that accompanies him into his current reality. When he first met with the widow of the water front his fable precedes him:

"I know who the dwarf is, and what he is." Her black eyes turned to Tyrion, hard as stone. "Kinslayer, kingslayer, murderer, turncloak, Lannister."

Yet in the end, Tyrion’s own actions show that there is a positive side to him. What I find curious is that, unlike the prior myths, that tried to convey a false sense of security Tyrion strives for exactly the opposite. He tried to win the widow over by hiding behind the mask of the monster but is a combination of this façade in contrast with his kind actions towards Penny and the respect displayed in the brutal honesty with which he answered her questions that win her over.

[greensleeves]

“Seek the widow of the waterfront, someone told you, but they should have also warned you, beware the widow’s sons.” The widow of the waterfront has her own loyal soldiers. She's another unimposing old woman with cunning and methods of defense, similar to Dany's Mirri Maz Duur and the Green Grace.

Hey now! Don't forget about Tyrion's dealings with the Queen of Thorns (or perhaps her dealings with him). Anyways, great analysis.

interesting detail!

Thanks! Actually after sleeping on it, I think there might be even more to it. Amanita Muscaria has a pretty prominent place in literature and culture; the red and white spotted mushrooms you see in fairytale illustrations, the smurfs, super mario bros, etc.... are all based on Amanita Muscaria.

One of the most famous literary instances of this species occurs in Alice in Wonderland; the caterpillar's mushroom is an amanita. In this part of the story, Alice is too small. She asks the caterpillar for help. He tells her that one side of his mushroom will make her smaller and one side larger. After some tribulations, Alice eventually ends up the right size.

Given that major themes of the caterpillar chapter are identity and physical size, I think that this reference must be deliberate. I'm not sure I have the parallel entirely figured out, but seeing as how Alice starts off too small and ends up just right... I think it's hopeful for Tyrion. He starts off his adventures with the mushrooms thinking he is too small and not right as well, but maybe it's just the beginning of a journey that will end with him being just the right size (comfortable with his dwarfism) and sure in his identity?

[Lady Seaworth]

Amanita Muscaria has a pretty prominent place in literature and culture; the red and white spotted mushrooms you see in fairytale illustrations, the smurfs, super mario bros, etc.... are all based on Amanita Muscaria.

One of the most famous literary instances of this species occurs in Alice in Wonderland; the caterpillar's mushroom is an amanita. In this part of the story, Alice is too small. She asks the caterpillar for help. He tells her that one side of his mushroom will make her smaller and one side larger. After some tribulations, Alice eventually ends up the right size.

Given that major themes of the caterpillar chapter are identity and physical size, I think that this reference must be deliberate. I'm not sure I have the parallel entirely figured out, but seeing as how Alice starts off too small and ends up just right... I think it's hopeful for Tyrion. He starts off his adventures with the mushrooms thinking he is too small and not right as well, but maybe it's just the beginning of a journey that will end with him being just the right size (comfortable with his dwarfism) and sure in his identity?

Haven't posted in one of these threads before, but I'll chip in here - in another of your examples, Super Mario Bros, mushrooms are also related to size (making the character larger or smaller). So it's definitely a connection that can be made, and an interesting one.

I'd agree that it might be something to do with Tyrion becoming sure in his identity - the size of his personality, so to speak, and how he presents himself. Perhaps this fits in well with the continued theme of "casting a big shadow"? We could say he needs to find a medium between his low opinion of his self-image (exemplified in ADWD) and the empowered facade he projects when he's playing the game of thrones (ACoK).

[Lykos]

greensleeves, this reminds me of soma and one of my favorite exchange of posts with Lummel. :laugh:

Also there is this

that some people say is about the "Fliegenpilz" though officially it´s about the (rose)hip.

[Barbrey]

Sorry to dampen a good theory. Amanita muscaria is indeed the red and white toadstool/mushroom in all the pretty pictures, but it's quite big, even when it's just emerging. The fully opened ones are four to six inches across. No way would Tyrion get seven of them in a glove then hide them in his shoe.

GRRM describes them as "pale white, with speckles, and red-ribbed undersides" so they aren't Amanita muscaria, but probably something GRRM just made up.

[Lummel]

If I remember correctly when Alice meets the caterpillar on the mushroom she asks which is right path to take, caterpillar asks where she wants to go, Alice doesn't know, caterpillar tells her then that it doesn't matter which direction she heads in?

That would be a comparison with Tyrion who was

, then is sent on a journey by Illyrio, captured by Mormont, captured by slavers etc, etc. He's always going somewhere but the destination is decided by others.

greensleeves, this reminds me of soma and one of my favorite exchange of posts with Lummel. :laugh:...

I should have guessed it would have something to do with reindeer urine :laugh:

Welcome Barbrey and Lady Seaworth!

[Lykos]

Well actually I think they were wrong at this exibition and the reindeer ingested a different type of mushroom but the Fliegenpilz is very iconical.

And to help other posters place

, in case they need it.

ETA: I just found

.

ETA II: Not to take up further space with this discussion I´ll just edit in this correction from wikipedia.

"In his 1976 survey, Hallucinogens and Culture, anthropologist Peter T. Furst evaluated the evidence for and against the identification of the fly agaric mushroom as the Vedic Soma, concluding cautiously in its favour."

And add that I think that greenleeves´ find is good in my opinion.

[greensleeves]

Haven't posted in one of these threads before, but I'll chip in here - in another of your examples, Super Mario Bros, mushrooms are also related to size (making the character larger or smaller). So it's definitely a connection that can be made, and an interesting one.

I'd agree that it might be something to do with Tyrion becoming sure in his identity - the size of his personality, so to speak, and how he presents himself. Perhaps this fits in well with the continued theme of "casting a big shadow"? We could say he needs to find a medium between his low opinion of his self-image (exemplified in ADWD) and the empowered facade he projects when he's playing the game of thrones (ACoK).

I had completely forgotten about that! Thanks!

greensleeves, this reminds me of soma and one of my favorite exchange of posts with Lummel. :laugh:

Also there is this

that some people say is about the "Fliegenpilz" though officially it´s about the (rose)hip.

:laugh: In addition to the reindeer urine, from the wikipedia article on the Amanita:

"In eastern Siberia, the shaman would take the mushrooms, and others would drink his urine. This urine, still containing psychoactive elements, may be more potent than the A. muscaria mushrooms with fewer negative effects such as sweating and twitching, suggesting that the initial user may act as a screening filter for other components in the mushroom."

and

"Among the Koryaks, one report said that the poor would consume the urine of the wealthy, who could afford to buy the mushrooms."

Given the recent discussion on the importance of Tyrion's piss, I'm gonna say it's all connected!

:leaving:

Sorry to dampen a good theory. Amanita muscaria is indeed the red and white toadstool/mushroom in all the pretty pictures, but it's quite big, even when it's just emerging. The fully opened ones are four to six inches across. No way would Tyrion get seven of them in a glove then hide them in his shoe.

GRRM describes them as "pale white, with speckles, and red-ribbed undersides" so they aren't Amanita muscaria, but probably something GRRM just made up.

:crying:

...but seriously, on his season 2 dvd commentary GRRM says that he takes real world things and adds to them to make things for ASOIAF (he talked specifically about greek fire and wildfire). I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that even if their size ( :cool4: ) and appearance is a bit off that they might still be referential. Especially since so many 'Alice' adaptations don't integrate the amanita exactly.

Anyways, I still have hope! You'll have to pry it from cold, dead hands! :P

[Winterfellian]

If I remember correctly when Alice meets the caterpillar on the mushroom she asks which is right path to take, caterpillar asks where she wants to go, Alice doesn't know, caterpillar tells her then that it doesn't matter which direction she heads in?

That would be a comparison with Tyrion who was

, then is sent on a journey by Illyrio, captured by Mormont, captured by slavers etc, etc. He's always going somewhere but the destination is decided by others.

Actually, that particular interaction happened with the Cheshire Cat, not the caterpillar ;)

"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"

"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to," said the Cat.

"I don't much care where –" said Alice.

"Then it doesn't matter which way you go," said the Cat.

"– so long as I get somewhere," Alice added as an explanation.

"Oh, you're sure to do that," said the Cat, "if you only walk long enough."

Though the similarities between Alice and Tyrion that you point out are still there. Furthermore, Tyrion is as foreign in Essos as Alice is in Wonderland and I also find the cat quite as enigmatic as the figures of Varys or Illyrio.

ETA- In wonderland the cat appears more than once in unexpected places. He comes and goes, unlike other of the characters and the influence of Varys and Illyrio is palpable in different places within ASOIAF- in Westeros, the Rhoyne and even far away places such as Volantis itself as can be attested by Illyrio's having bought one of the triarchs in Volantis. Much like the cat they, or at least their influence, keeps turning up in unexpected places.

[Lykos]

Winterfellian, very good. What about the Mock Turtle (Haldon as Tortoise maybe?) and the Gryphon?

[Lummel]

I think there is a theme of deconstructing the fable/myth into the reality present in this chapter. Jorah tells Tyrion: I thought Lannisters always paid their debts, which is a myth so engrained in Westerosi mentality (and for what we have seen even in Essos too) that it has people killing dwarves all around in an effort to collect a debt from the Lannisters...

But much like the myth surrounding the Lannisters and their debts, the reality is quite contrasting. There are packs of naked children roaming the alleys, there might be lords and ladies of ancient blood but the majority of the population is constituted by slaves, the city smells like an old whore and much of it has sank into the mud, etc. Volantis isn't the beautiful city from the stories, no more than the widow of the waterfront is a seemingly harmless old woman...

Yet in the end, Tyrion’s own actions show that there is a positive side to him. What I find curious is that, unlike the prior myths, that tried to convey a false sense of security Tyrion strives for exactly the opposite. He tried to win the widow over by hiding behind the mask of the monster but is a combination of this façade in contrast with his kind actions towards Penny and the respect displayed in the brutal honesty with which he answered her questions that win her over.

Is Tyrion kind to Penny here? He throws wine in her face and avoids being killed by her, but is he really kind to her? Apparently the widow responds to the beast and the monster, unsurprisingly since she sits like a fox and looks out like a reptile, yet equally she is running counter to general accepted opinions and I think her championing of the Tyrion falls into the same categoric, or maybe she sees his desire to rape and murder his sister as equivalent or similar in kind to her desires for Volatine society?

I like your point about the decaying city with the facade of past grandeur propped up through slavery and exploitation.

...And to help other posters place

, in case they need it...

totally the wrong voice in my opinion for a raucous pub song but that's what the old youtube had

..."Among the Koryaks, one report said that the poor would consume the urine of the wealthy, who could afford to buy the mushrooms."

Given the recent discussion on the importance of Tyrion's piss, I'm gonna say it's all connected!...

trickle down psychotropics.

Actually, that particular interaction happened with the Cheshire Cat, not the caterpillar ;)...

thank you, my memory isn't what it was :)

It is interesting I thought how unimaginative and limited Ser Jorah Mormont appears in Tyrion's POV. Really another light on how poorly off Daenerys is/was for advisers.

Also a sense in this chapter of Fortune's wheel. Tyrion and Penny thrown together. Tyrion and Mormont's positions reversed by the widow. The fickle social boundaries between free and slave and many more headless statues as silent commentary on a policy of war.

Here too the Merchants House is the same establishment that Quentyn and company stayed in. Tyrions black iron manacles reminded me of the black iron chain that Aegon wears . A little visual reminder of two people chained to causes?

[Winterfellian]

Winterfellian, very good. What about the Mock Turtle (Haldon as Tortoise maybe?) and the Gryphon?

I love this! They do call Haldon half maester because he teaches ;)

[Lummel]

Have we mentioned before how Tyrion's story in ADWD is a parallel to Arya' in ACOK and ASOS? Out of their natural lordly environment and forced to see the world from another perspective?

[Woman of War]

Have we mentioned before how Tyrion's story in ADWD is a parallel to Arya' in ACOK and ASOS? Out of their natural lordly environment and forced to see the world from another perspective?

Actually that is one of the most interesting topics in Martin's books: characters out of their natural habitat:

Maybe this is the former :commie: in me, you know, who isn't a socialist at twenty is..... Who is still a socialist at forty...... Guess I lingered too long in puberty... :D but I like to read about characters from nobillity thrown into a context of lower class life as challenge - and as way of letting the character grow, as kind of Bildungsroman. Apart from that this is a wonderful literary tool to introduce new contexts of interaction to us readers.

Martin treats his characters like objects of field research, thrown out into conditions as alien to them as possible: the spoiled son of a high lord into slavery - how will he adapt and what means "survival of the fittest" here? Jorah shows us that the fittest under these conditions is for sure not the strongest and best fighter, the best adapted to conditions is Tyrion, given the alternative Jorah (would die out on the spot) or Penny (short term survival in denial)

There is Jaime under Martin's microscope: the warrior without sword hand, trying to do the right thing.

There are Arya and Sansa in Martin's field research project, so obviously thrown into alien habitat and I am sure that for the sake of Martins experiment they will switch roles: Sansa will have to go through literal and metaphorical mud, be taken into moral greyness, having her time as Cat of the canals in rags, and Arya might have to prove herself in upperclass trickery, dressed appropriately.

And there is that fascinating study in "Goodness" : Brienne stubbornly against all odds or Davos cunningly, successfully adapting by using his brain where Ned failed. Both characters being in alien habitat by their mere existence already. Martin's beloved guinea pigs.

And when will Tyrion (oh yes, we had a topic....) fit in, will be fit for maybe not survival but life or death in dignity? When he fits his own shadow, no longer at odds with himself and his place in the world, no matter how others might perceive him. And his shadow is big. I would maybe not (though he might) expect him to sit the Iron Throne (damn that blasted thing, I'd rather have IKEA or flea market vintage) but I would expect his character to come to terms with his past and his destiny, doing whatever plot deciding move to save..... yaddayaddayadda....Until his shadow will fit Tyrion, the story is not over for him, Martin will go on sending him into even stranger habitats, like confrontation with magic to that agnostic. And the author will mercilessly put him under a magnifying lens unveiling all shades of greyness.

A shadow is the one thing you can never get rid of, it may be hidden if there is no direct light but it is yet there.

And for painters or photographers the colour within a shadowy area may be richer and deeper than in direct light. So far Tyrion does not really cast his own shadow, he is more or less followed by it. He might though actively cast it, live in it and wrap himself in it when he has grown into it.

[Elba the Intoner]

Have we mentioned before how Tyrion's story in ADWD is a parallel to Arya' in ACOK and ASOS? Out of their natural lordly environment and forced to see the world from another perspective?

Ha, you know I thought this very thing when I read how at the beginning Tyrion was rolled up on Jorah's horse:

trussed up like a goose and lashed to a saddle. He had given up squirming. The knots that bound him were too tight. Instead he’d gone as limp as a sack of meal...

That reminded me of how the Hound wrapped Arya in the blanket burrito as they roamed through the Riverlands, and she pretty much had to give up struggling.

I was wondering what to make of the dwarf white elephants that Tyrion comes across. That has to be some kind of symbol for Tyrion who is a dwarf and has hair that is very light blond to be almost white. Aren't elephants supposed to represent intelligence? Perhaps Blisscraft can enlighten us on this. Tyrion is at his perceptive best in this chapter especially in his dealing the widow.

[Lummel]

...Martin treats his characters like objects of field research, thrown out into conditions as alien to them as possible: the spoiled son of a high lord into slavery - how will he adapt and what means "survival of the fittest" here? Jorah shows us that the fittest under these conditions is for sure not the strongest and best fighter, the best adapted to conditions is Tyrion, given the alternative Jorah (would die out on the spot) or Penny (short term survival in denial)

There is Jaime under Martin's microscope: the warrior without sword hand, trying to do the right thing.

There are Arya and Sansa in Martin's field research project, so obviously thrown into alien habitat...

And there is that fascinating study in "Goodness" : Brienne stubbornly against all odds or Davos cunningly, successfully adapting by using his brain where Ned failed. Both characters being in alien habitat by their mere existence already. Martin's beloved guinea pigs.

Yes, I read it in the same way, GRRM as scientist releasing his characters into environments that are alien to them and telling us what happens.

And when will Tyrion (oh yes, we had a topic....) fit in, will be fit for maybe not survival but life or death in dignity? When he fits his own shadow, no longer at odds with himself and his place in the world, no matter how others might perceive him. And his shadow is big. I would maybe not (though he might) expect him to sit the Iron Throne (damn that blasted thing, I'd rather have IKEA or flea market vintage) but I would expect his character to come to terms with his past and his destiny... So far Tyrion does not really cast his own shadow, he is more or less followed by it. He might though actively cast it, live in it and wrap himself in it when he has grown into it.

A lovely thought, very apt, to carry into the next chapter :)

...I was wondering what to make of the dwarf white elephants that Tyrion comes across. That has to be some kind of symbol for Tyrion who is a dwarf and has hair that is very light blond to be almost white. Aren't elephants supposed to represent intelligence?...

Well they remind him of Illyrio. Since they are the symbol of the mercantile/peace party I suppose the living elephants are in contrast to the headless statues of Tigers?

[Lummel]

Tyrion VIII ADWD

Overview

This chapter comes in between the Theon chapter in which he is rescued by Roose from Ramsey and the Bran chapter which emphases the passage of time.

Moqorro is at the beginning and the end of the chapter, in between the prose style is quite different, there's an odd relaxed tone to the developing friendship (?) between Tyrion and Penny.

If the previous chapter suggested a parallel with Arya being captured by the Hound as Elba the Intoner said then this one is like the situation on the High Road in AGOT. Tyrion and Mormont's relationship has changed. Tyrion seems like more of an equal to Mormont and less a prisoner.

As in the following Bran chapter there is a stress on time passing. Tyrion is bored. They pass close to Valyria. The focus is internal, on Tyrion's state of mind and relationships to others. For me this chapter was unusually humorous, all things considered.

Observations

• The Selaesori Qhoran or Stinky Steward is a cog.
  
• “here I sit like a bloody gargoyle” p436 interesting simile
  
• “Sleep meant dreams as like as not, and in his dreams the sorrows waited, and a stony king with his father's face” p 439
  
• “One very small splash, and the pathetic little tale that was his life would soon be done. But what if there is a hell and my father's waiting for me?” p439
  
• “a collection of nautical poetry that went from bad to worse” p439 I like how GRRM avoided saying from bad to verse and I didn't. Meaning in the books anyone :) ?
  
• “I made them laugh at Joff instead. And wasn't that a clever ploy?” p440
  
• “...my hands are crusted with old blood, aye. Call me konslayer, and you won't be wrong. Kingslayer, I'll answer to that one as well. I have killed mothers, fathers, nephews, lovers, men and women, kings and whores. A singer once annoyed me, so I had the bastard stewed. But I have never killed a juggler, nor a dwarf, and I am not to blame for what happened to your bloody brother.” p441
  
• “And a chain and a keep are nothing, compared to a woman's kiss. It was queer how quick the words came back to him. Perhaps they never left him.” p443
  
• “An empire built on blood and fire. The Valyrians reaped the seed they had sown.” p447 true not just of the Valyrians as ASOIAF shows...
  
• And finally Tyrion is
  , but only temporarily...
  

Analysis

Moqorro and the stinky steward

“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.” p436

“So Selaesori Qhoran means Stinky Steward, more or less?” p437

Moqorro's small man with a big shadow puts me in mind of both Varys' 'shadow on a wall' and Maester Aemon's a giant come among us.

Friends and helpers?

Tyrion is never alone on his travels and noticing that Moqorro calls Tyrion “my friend” p436, something that Illyrio also does I thought it was worth discussing all these friends and helpers that lucky Tyrion has to help him on his way.

If Moqorro and Illyrio appear friendly, Jon Connington and Mormont don't – instead they show some hostility towards Tyrion. Illyrio we know could see a space for Tyrion in his plans, what does this tell us about Moqorro? Illyrio and Moqorro seem a matched pair, black and white, big, towering personalities. Connington and Mormont likewise – two exiled Lords, prickly, chasing after lost loves. Yet it is Connington who saves Tyrion and Mormont who carrys Tyrion closer towards Daenerys.

Arya and Tyrion

I am seeing some parallels between Arya's journey through purgatory and Tyrion's. Neither is in control over their journey. Whatever moves they make on their own account are soon overtaken by decisions made by other people. Both travel under various false identities and both have their fortunes told.

Can a monster have friends?

The theme of Tyrion as man and monster has come up often before, in this chapter I feel that we see Tyrion at his most humane, possibly this why the tone of the chapter feels so odd to me, in how Tyrion reaches out and talks to Penny and the his reflections on the place of dwarves in society.

ETA: Belonging

Way back at the beginning of the reread one of the ideas we started off with was Tyrion as an outsider. We have seen Tyrion place himself as an outsider and contrasted this with his clearly often being 'an amiable fellow'. However much Tyrion feels, and is made to feel on occasion an outsider because of being a dwarf, he was always at the heart of the Lannister system.

ADWD marks a big change. His Lannister status doesn't protect him. Connington is suspicious of him. Mormont can't get his head around Parricide. The widow calls Tyrion a Lannister as though it were an insult. Previously Tyrion was metaphorically bound in chains to Tywinismus and the cause of House Lannister. Here he is literally chained. He is also exposed to life for a dwarf outside of House Lannister. He's demoted from man to lucky talisman, he sees in Penny's tales life as a freak show exhibit for others and a reality in which you are better off making yourself the butt of jokes rather than putting others in their places through judicious use of a sharp tongue.

[Ragnorak]

Thank you so much both redviper9 and Dr. Pepper for a wonderful write-up and for taking the time to fill in.

There seems to be an east/west divide theme that runs through this whole chapter. It seems to allude to Dany/Aegon, the divide within Volantis itself, and class or status divisions in general. The opening line establishes this

By the time they reached Volantis, the sky was purple to the west and black to the east

The purple of royalty vs the blackness of night and despair. I didn't get to spend the time going through the chapter and focusing on the symbolism of the river dividing the two and the bridge uniting them but I wanted to thank you you two for filling in before moving on to the next chapter.

[Lummel]

Thank you so much both redviper9 and Dr. Pepper for a wonderful write-up and for taking the time to fill in...I wanted to thank you you two for filling in before moving on to the next chapter.

hear, hear :cheers:

I am quite happy as seeing the bridge, the two cities, the colours as indicative of what we are told is very divided society: tigers and elephants, free and unfree, citizens and non-citizens, poverty and plenty...

[Fire Eater]

"We performed for the Sealord of Braavos once, and he laughed so hard that afterward he gave each of us a . . . a grand gift."

This grand gift may be useful to Tyrion later on, it could be iron coins for the FM, coupons for assassinations and/or get-out-of-jail-free cards for when one becomes a target for them.

As for the old dwarf in Tyrosh who was killed to be presented to Cersei; rest assured his killer is given by Cersei to Maester Qyburn.

a well-thumbed tome about the erotic adventures of a young slave girl in a Lysene pillow house, and the fourth and final volume of The Life of Triarch Belicho, a famous Volantene patriot whose unbroken succession of conquests and triumphs ended rather abruptly when he was eaten by giants.

Could this be foreshadowing for Aegon? Serra was from a Lysene pillow house according to Illyrio, and Aegon's campaign before Dany arrives will likely be an unbroken succession of conquests and triumphs, given that the opposition is led by Mace and Cersei. His campaign will end when Dany contests with him with Tyrion, referred to as a giant, commanding her forces.