Becoming No One: Rereading Arya III

[Lyanna Stark]

Welcome everyone to the third thread in the re-reading Arya project run by Rapsie, brashcandy and myself!

In order for this to run smoothly, we hope you'll all agree to follow a few simple rules:

• Try and stick to the current and previous chapters when commenting in this thread. It's perfectly fine to allude to future events, but if you are about to post something longer about events in future chapters, save it on file and add it when we're there. We'd love to hear your thoughts.
  
• This is not a "love" or "hate" thread. It's a thread dedicated to re-reading and critically (as in literary criticism) analysing Arya's chapters, her character development, symbolism, foreshadowing etc. within her character arc.
  
• While it's not absolutely necessary to read the chapter in question, it certainly helps. Quotes or references to the text are always helpful and a great tool to use, otherwise it is easy to end up in yet another "I think" "you think" discussion, which we have plenty of in other places.
  
• You do not need to be a "veteran poster" to add your thoughts and interpretations, all you need is to be armed with the ASOIAF novels and to be Ready to Read. :)
  

In other words: we hope that other readers will find as much pleasure as we do in really digging ourselves down in the text to see what interesting things we can fish out. So far, the first two threads have proven that Arya's chapters are not only great reading, but contain a wealth of character development, symbolism, foreshadowing and other interesting things.

For those who are interested in a recap, or just want to find the older threads, here are the links to the previous threads: Rereading Arya I and Arya II.

For a more detailed breakdown of the more recent chapters:

ACOK:

Arya IV: Summary & Analysis

Arya V: Summary & Analysis

Arya VI: Summary & Analysis

Arya VII: Summary & Analysis

Arya VIII: Summary & Analysis

Arya IX: Summary & Analysis

Arya X: Summary & Analysis

ACOK recap

ASOS:

Arya I: Summary & Analysis

Arya II: Summary & Analysis

Arya III: Summary & Analysis

In other words, we are currently up to ASOS Arya IV, which will be up as soon as I can hammer the formatting into submission. Stay tuned!

[Lyanna Stark]

ASOS - Arya IV - Looking for Godot Thoros and Beric

This chapter fought me for days. It’s long, dense; contains info dumps, prophecies, lots of different characters and themes and lots of possible symbolism. I’m not going to go into the plot too much as a matter of fact since it's a monster of an analysis anyway, and I've still pruned it more than once and I had to break it up in several sections. I suggest getting comfortable with a cup of tea before starting on this one. It's long, is all I can say, despite my best efforts to the contrary. :lol:

The main plot points are:

- Arya and Gendry are travelling with the BWB to several locations in the Riverlands in search for Beric and Thoros. The stops on the way there are Lord Lychester’s keep, the Lady of the Leaves, the village Sallydance, High Heart and lastly Acorn Hall, where Lady Smallwood resides.

- We get a huge info dump on the BWB, how they were formed, how they continue to live on, their guerrilla tactics and why they need money. This forms the main chunk of info on the BWB, I think, supplemented with what we learn mainly from other Arya chapters.

- The first round of prophecies by the Ghost of High Heart

The four destinations in a bit more detail:

Lord Lychester’s keep.

The small square keep was half a ruin, and so too the great grey knight who lived there.

Lord Lychester is a remnant of wars past. His sons are supposed to have fought and died in Robert’s rebellion.

Lady of the Leaves and Sallydance: Here we learn that the commoners have sided with the BWB and have created almost secret enclaves. We also learn that it’s not only Lannisters who are the “bad guys” roaming the Riverlands, but that “wolves”, i.e. northmen, are just as potentially dangerous. Arya does not like hearing this about the northmen.

Arya heard him, and chewed her lip. She could feel Gendry looking at her. It made her angry and ashamed.

High Heart: Here we meet the Ghost of High Heart for the first time and learn that she’s not really a ghost but an old dwarf woman. We also get to read about her first prophecy (more on that later). The Ghost of High Heart is also a remnant of times past, not unlike Lord Lychester, but she is also able to foretell the future, to a degree.

Acorn Hall: The last destination is where we get fresh information from the here and now about Lord Beric and Thoros, plus recent news about the Kingslayer’s release. The northmen as potentially just as dangerous/desructive as the Lannisters to the commoners is also brought up again, with Lady Smallwood being angry about Arya’s clothing:

”That badge…there’s many a man who would hang her in half a heartbeat for wearing a flayed man on her breast.”

Themes and analysis, part 1:

The Brotherhood Without Banners: We learn a lot about the BWB in this chapter. While I would hesitate to call them “good”, they certainly come across as a better alternative for the smallfolk than anything lord or kings can provide (ironic since they label themselves “kings men”). I’ll leave it to you to ponder how they tie into the Robin Hood myth, but the associations are certainly strong, since they have a theme going on about taking from the rich and giving to the poor. Being ASOIAF though, nothing is ever so morally clear cut.

Songs and the power of songs: This chapter is full of songs and references to songs. One of the main characters appearing is also Tom o Sevens, a singer.

The songs in order:

- Song of Big Belly Ben and the High Septon’s goose

- Song about Edmure Tully’s floppy fish

- Jenny of Oldstones, sung for the Ghost of High Heart (which we know from subsequent chapters, but Arya cannot identify it, instead she thinks Sansa would know)

- “Oh Lay My Sweet Lass Down in the Grass”

- “Let Me Drink Your Beauty”

- The song about the Forest Lass

- Further, we have mentions of how Lord Lychester would be as famous as the Dragonknight is someone had just made a song about him holding that bridge.

- Poor Edmure’s floppy fish is also brought up here as a reason for why he hates songs and singers.

- The Ghost of High Heart can be paid with a song to tell people about her prophetic dreams.

”I’ll have my song or I’ll have you gone.”

So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half familiar. Sansa would know, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words.

- Lady Smallwood later berates Tom o Sevens for using songs to irresponsibly fornicate with young ladies who then end up getting pregnant.

- Lastly, we have Tom singing the “Forest Lass” song to Arya (more on this later).

The Tullys: While the smallfolk may love the BWB, the Tullys may not be as positive. Hoster Tully is described as someone hanging outlaws without many second thoughts, and Edmure’s floppy fish story certainly makes him come off as a teeny bit vain and as someone who may not naturally ally with the BWB due to past slights. So I think the end result is that the Tullys come off as a bit prickly perhaps? Definitely as lordly and not directly aligned with the common folk. The Tullys also tie in somewhat with the next point, which is...

Arya and family: We have several references to Arya and her family, both the “old” one and the “new”. However, Arya has also been conditioned by her harrowing journey to be suspicious and to not expect anything for “free”. When she hears about the ransom money, she thinks:

Knights were captured and ransomed all the time, and sometimes women were too. But what if Robb won’t pay the price? She wasn’t a famous knight, and kings were supposed to put the realm before their sisters. And her lady mother, what would she say? Would she still want her back, after all the things she’d done?

This passage struck me as extremely sad, especially since we know that Cat was willing to sacrifice everything, including her own life, for an off chance that Arya and Sansa would be returned safe. While Arya is correct about Robb: he didn’t want to make any concessions for Arya and Sansa, Cat was willing to use desperate actions to get her daughters back and in light of that, I think we can be certain that she would not care at all about the state of Arya’s hair or what Arya had done to survive: in fact, Cat and Arya were both willing to go to great lengths to reach their goals.

Arya also thinks about Sansa and how she knew all the songs.

She thinks of Gendry as her friend, so he gets to represent her “current” pack, but she’s definitely certain that she cannot see the BWB that way, not even Harwin. About Anguy, she thinks:

He’s not my friend. He’s only staying close to watch me and make sure I don’t ride off again. Well, Arya could watch as well. Syrio Forel had taught her that.

While Arya is certainly perceptive and can tell that while Anguy is nice to her, he is definitely not on “her” side, not really. The BWB have a distinct goal with Arya and she is just as much a piece of meat as a “captive” as Sansa realizes that she is to the Lannisters. In the case of the BWB, Arya is a path to riches, while for the Lannisters/Tyrells, Sansa is a path to Winterfell and dominion of the North.

[Lyanna Stark]

Themes and Analysis, part 2: (I warned you, it's long!)

“Girl, you’ll be a woman soon”: To borrow from an old Neil Diamond song (famously used in

among others) this is the first chapter where we get references to Arya as a girl about to grow into a woman. In the last chapter, we had Harwin comparing her to Lyanna who’s described more as a maid and a young woman than a little girl. Here Arya herself claims that she is no little girl.

”I’m not a squirrel,” she said. “I’ll almost be a woman soon. I’ll be one-and-ten.”

“Best watch out I don’t marry you, then!”

We also have quite a few references to sex, with the floppy fish and Lady Smallwood making pointed comments about the milkmaids. As in Sansa’s story line, the link between songs/singing and sex/love is strong. Hence why the “Forest Lass” song Tom sings in the end indicates Arya and Gendry as a couple. (More on that in a bit.)

Lastly, we have Lady Smallwood herself telling the BWB of how she made a fairly bawdy joke about having Jaime Lannister naked in her bed (as an aside, the people she told this to went onto Blackbottom Bend, what an awesome sounding place!).

Overall, the chapter is full of references and euphemisms relating to sex and romantic love, which stands in contrast to Arya’s earlier chapters. This may help explain why some readers read a lot into the following:

Gendry and Arya: I think based on the events in this chapter that Gendry is certainly fond of Arya, and that he also probably has a bit of an unrealized crush on her. When he first sees Arya in the acorn dress, all washed and brushed:

Gendry took one look and laughed so hard that wine came out his nose, until Harwin gave him a thwack alongside the ear.

Later on, he’s definitely appreciating Arya’s new look:

”Riverrun.” Gendry put the hammer down and looked at her. “You look different now. Like a proper little girl”.

“I look like an oak tree, with all these stupid acorns.”

“Nice, though. A nice oak tree.” He stepped closer, and sniffed her.

Then they end up in a wrestling match where Gendry tickles Arya and she tears her acorn dress. After that, Tom o Sevens plays the “Forest Lass” song to Arya in a "meaningful" way and winks at her.

What stood out to me as well was that Gendry refers to her simply as “Arya” when he asks her to come with her to the smithy. Everyone else calls her something, squirrel, or lady, Arry, squab etc. but to Gendry she is simply “Arya”.

To be fair, to Arya, Gendry is her friend, but I think a case can definitely be made that for Gendry, Arya comes off a bit differently. He’s realizing that she’s a girl and that he rather likes that. Plus we have all the references to Arya growing up, how she might be like Lyanna and all the references to songs, sex and romance, which enhances this theme. Like Sansa totally misses the Hound's double entendres in ACOK, I think Arya totally misses anything relating to adult relationships in this chapter. The main difference between the two is their future recollections of Sandor vs Gendry, which is a topic for future Arya chapter re-reads, but definitely something to keep an eye out for. (To clarify, I think Sansa is starting to return the feelings, but Arya's development and how she thinks of Gendry is somewhat different. No more on this subject at the present. :) )

Symbolism and Foreshadowing (etc):

I’m just going to mention a few things here, as I fully expect you lovely people to have a field day with this chapter. It even contains significant food and clothes references for Blisscraft, Ragnorak et al to have a go at!

Ghost of High Heart: Well, we can’t really go through this chapter without mentioning the Ghost of High Heart and her prophecies. Judging by the weirwoods, the COTF lore, the dwarf woman’s own words and Arya’s reaction, it’s safe to say the Old Gods are involved here. Arya is even woken up by something that seems like a higher power.

Yet even so, the hair on the back of her neck stood up that night. She had been asleep, but the storm woke her.

Bloodraven, or more Divine powers?

Then we move on to the dwarf woman’s actual prophecy.

”I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror.”

The standard interpretation here is that the first sentence refers to Stannis’ and Mel’s shadowbaby murdering Renly, the second bit is about a faceless man hired by Euron assassinated Balon Greyjoy, while the dead woman who was a fish refers to Catelyn Tully and her resurrection.

Gendry and a sword of flame: There have been some theories floating around about Gendry possibly reforging Ice, or even forging the sword Lightbringer. In this chapter, we have Gendry discuss faux flaming swords with Arya, in this case Thoros’ flaming swords which were dipped in wildfire, but ultimately destroyed the steel.

Favourite somewhat crackpot: Lord Lychester's sons didn't all die in Robert's rebellion. One of the younger ones survived and is now the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle!

Second favourite crackpot, and riffing off Ragnorak's "Septa Lemore is Wenda the White Fawn", I humbly nominate the Lady of Leaves as another Wenda the White Fawn candidate.

Gender:

The Mother: We have a few references to mothering and mothers in this chapter. First we have Arya doubting that Cat would want her back. However, once she hears the rumours that Cat has left Jaime Lannister go, she gets upset and sees it as lies.

She had promised Harwin that she would not try and run away again, she knew, but that was before they started telling lies about her mother.

Arya may doubt that Cat wants her back, but she is very defensive of her mother and will hear nothing bad said about her. Like above, the tragic thing here is of course that Cat *has* released the Kingslayer, and Cat’s love for Arya is one of the main reasons for this (the other being her love for Sansa).

Lady Smallwood gets to act as a positive mother figure for Arya, and even if we normally see Arya shun dresses and ladylike pursuits, we see her having very civilized (if laced with double entendre) conversations with Lady Smallwood, and she does not really protest being put in Lady Smallwood’s daughter’s, Carellen’s, clothes. Arya thinks to herself that she is not a lady, but a wolf, but here she agrees to being taken care of, and she seems to genuinely appreciate Lady Smallwood’s motherly affections, even if it’s not really completely to her taste. We also get Lady Smallwood praising Arya as pretty and telling her to be brave.

For a long time, Lady Smallwood stands out as one of very few positive female role models for Arya. I also think that her interactions with Lady Smallwood highlights how much Arya is missing her real mother, despite their differences.

Arya as a girl and future woman. I touched upon this already, but there are several references to Arya growing up in this chapter, that she is pretty even if she is not a traditional lady. It’s further helped along by references to sex, romantic love and even marriage plus by the Lyanna reference in the last chapter. Arya herself emphasizes that she is growing up and will be a woman grown soon.

[Mladen]

Well, Lyanna, it could have been longer. It was pleasure to read it. Now, since I have done my homework yesterday (read the chapter and took some notes), I`ll give you a piece of my mind

1. Songs and the power of songs

Throughout entire ASOIAF we had a chance to see how powerful songs are. Whether it is sending a threat via song (Rains of Castamere), creating false history (song about Renly at Battle at BWB), or soothing the pain (Sansa`s Mother hymn to Sandor), songs indeed have a special place in Westeros. In this chapter, we`re said how unsung heros are quickly forgotten, but it`s nothing comparing to harsh reality.

No bloody song’s like to help any o’ that.

I don`t know any songs. Not anymore

Songs are powerful if you use them right, but at some point they`ll lose its meaning. Just like Arya isn`t very good at singing, she understands that world isnt a song, and pretending it is won`t help you.

2. Arya and family

This passage struck me as extremely sad, especially since we know that Cat was willing to sacrifice everything, including her own life, for an off chance that Arya and Sansa would be returned safe. While Arya is correct about Robb: he didn’t want to make any concessions for Arya and Sansa, Cat was willing to use desperate actions to get her daughters back and in light of that, I think we can be certain that she would not care at all about the state of Arya’s hair or what Arya had done to survive: in fact, Cat and Arya were both willing to go to great lengths to reach their goals.

Arya is confronted with the two families she has. The Starks, powerful lords and kings, and the new family of farmers, blacksmiths, renegades. She is confronted because her ideals of both of them being noble and doing the right thing isn`t write. She is hurt when the men of her brother proves incorrect to commoners, just as she was hurt in last chapter when she realized that this new family is actually her new captor. I completely agree with you, Lyanna, that this passage is extremly sad. But no kid will ever understand how unconditional mother`s love is. And here, Arya proves that she`s missing her mother so much.

3. “Girl, you’ll be a woman soon”

It`s so interesting to see Arya reaching the puberty, and being confronted with who she is and how she looks like. She is most comfortable wearing rugs, because therefore she rejects the notion of being lady, but when she`s all dressed up she gets angry. But, interestingly not on dress or her beauty, then on reaction it provokes. Arya isn`t rejecting her feminine side, she just don`t want to be seen as a helpless noblewoman.

All and all, Lyanna, you did a great job. This was very insightful analysis of Arya`s growth and her path. Again, it was really wonderful to read it...

[Fire Eater]

Good job, Lyanna

I fear you seek a ghost.

Lord Beric is called the lightning lord, and he appears at different places quickly and consistently. Blitzkreig or "lightning war" was used by Erwin Rommel in WWII, his division was known as the Ghost Division, because it would appear up in consistently in places at such speed.

I look like an oak tree, with all these stupid acorns

The oak tree was known for its tendency to attract lightning so it foreshadows Arya meeting Beric. The oak tree was also regard for its strength, endurance and nobility.

This may be crackpot, but could the song about the Forest Lass be hinting at Rhaegar and Lyanna?

and on your head a crown

Rhaegar gave Lyanna the blue rose crown for the queen of love and beauty

and guard you with my sword

the KG are referred to as the white swords

And how she smiled and how she laughed the maiden of the tree

Lyanna was the KoLT

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Mentions in previous chapters:

Between this chapter and the last Arya chapter there's only one small reference to her.

Jaime thinks about how he should marry Cersei, have Joffrey marry Marcella and ship Sansa back to her mother along with her younger sister, if the girl could be found. I don't recall how Jaime would have the information that Arya is missing, a minor error or Catelyn might have inferred too much when she released Jaime.

The old gods the new and the red ones too...

"May the warrior defend him[beric] and the red priest too"

The woman keeps the seven but mentions that the red priest can help him too, the common people need all the help from all the gods that will help them.

There's also the "conflict" between the seven and the North, Karstark's and their old gods desecrating the sept and seven that were mentioned. Here we see Thoros(Red Priest) is not disrespectful to the seven or to the old gods.

"The gods give each of us our little gifts, talents and it's meant for us to use them."

Arya is talking about how she likes needlework, where the lady of the Acorn is obviously thinking of the other needlework, singing and other lady activities but the point is that all people have certain talents and those are easier to develop than others.

Animal/other references:

"I'm not a squirrel" Arya then says she'll be a woman soon. Then when she's called a proper lady Arya thinks I'm not a lady, I'm a wolf

Harwin calls her a child when she tells him about witnessing "the tickling". She gets called a "milady" "little lady", and a "skinny squirrel". After fighting with Gendry they question whether she's a "highborn lady"...

She considers ploting escape knowing the wolves searching for the Kingslayer are Robb's men.

She's given a rumor that Catelyn Stark freed the Kingslayer, that no one believes, but Arya completely denies it's even possible. She's bias when it comes to her family.

Arya / Gendry

Arya defends Gendry's estranged father from Gendry's insults, since Robert and her father were friends. Gendry again insulting his drunken father.

The key part I took away from this whole ordeal is: Gendry "sniffs" at her, not smells her, sniffs. Which leads into their fight, not a real fight, Gendry's not trying to hurt her, just trying to force her into submission. Kinda like we've seen in other chapters when wolves fight to for control of a pack, or like we see Brienne say she'll only accept a marriage proposal from someone that can best her in a fight.

Six and seven

We know the number seven is all throughout the books, but six seems to be the penultimate number, the knights says he takes "six wounds", my guess is seven wounds would've killed him, or not.

The lady tells Tom that he'll be called "Seven" sons soon. To which Tom says he passed seven long ago.

We learn about two of Beric's deaths, when we meet him he'll tell us exactly how many times he's been brought back to life, but I could almost guess what the number would be at this point.

The lady tells Arya her son died when he was seven.

The journey in this chapter takes seven days..... ( okay I'll save you the trouble of adding it up, it takes eight actually, but how many people would've gone and double checked that math? :bs: )

Arya and combat training

Arya talks about her dancing master Syrio and his lesson about how to listen, she talks about "her needlework", she tries to shoot Archer's bow, but it's too big, he says that he'll try and make her one, when they get to riverrun. She also wishes for a "flaming sword" to set people on fire with.

Arya and Death

I don't think a chapter goes by without some associations with death. The whole chapter they are seeking what people call a ghost in Beric, but we'll learn later that he is truly dead in a way. They seek the woman called the "ghost of high heart".

The lady gives Arya her dead son's clothes, Arya being clothed by the dead now, also since the sheep came from Thoros and Beric, she ate food given to her indirectly from a dead man.

Possible forshadowing:

They talk about how the Tickler might be dead.

They talk about how "the war began when the Hand sent us out to seek the king's justice for Gregor Clemene and that's how his lordship[beric] intends to end it"

[Lummel]

On songs and singing

These have a double aspect which is made clear in ASOS. They are powerful and create a collective, shared (or sharable) memory but this can be misleading and false. There is a warning to those becoming acquainted with the song of ice and fire in this ;)

For instance one of the great things about this chapter is how it deepens our vision of GRRM's world and makes it complex. The peasant's perspective on their Tully overlords is of people who can have villages destroyed. Until that moment the Tully / Great Lord perspective was the natural one for us. Had we paused to consider the people whose cattle were stolen by Lions or Wolves? The song is seductive. Had a song been composed to celebrate Lychester's fight we can assume that it would have celebrated - in the words of "The Sworn Sword" - 'a pissing contest' - of the sort which writ large got everybody into this Game of Thrones mess in the first place.

The BWB stand in interesting relation to this because they too have their songs and a no less fanciful ideology. King's men without a king (ETA, since Lyanna mentioned it, this is one thread in the vast Robin Hood tradition and currently if you've grown up watching Robin Hood films probably the most familiar one, the outlaws there are true to the true king Richard and opposed to his wicked brother prince John - except there is no king in the box in GRRM's version to ride in and save the outlaws from being hanged at the end of the story). And if they have, ahem, pastoral ballads too we are reminded that a consequence of singing is pregnancy ;) (unless a floppy fish is involved).

On Squirrels and squirrelism

If you are of a heretical disposition then remember that the Children of the Forest are called the Squirrel people by the giants (ADWD) and Bran at first seeing Leaf assumes that it is his sister Arya, or someone very like her. We've seen Arya, squirrel like on the tree bough at Harrenhall, here called a squireel and wearing a dress decorated with acorns. All of which might, might, suggest a fundamental connection between the Starks and the Children.

Equally we can look at it symbolically. Squirrels famously horde nuts and seeds to feed off during times of scarcity - which is an optimistic image for someone whose identity has for so long been hidden and denied, but then again, squirrels don't always find those hidden hordes again.

More literally the BWB are the squirrels here and Arya the nut. They are hording her and keeping her safe in order to survive the lean times (leaves turning in this chapter to autumn gold).

I like Harwin's line "No child should be made to suffer that", it is an in-book moral judgement on what Arya has endured (at least the edited version) we accept it and are shocked, but here is a book character telling another that it was wrong. But as we've seen Arya's conveyor belt journey through the slaughter house flowed naturally as a result of the Game of Thrones ("you win or you die") (heh heh, the game theory of the game of thrones). Implicitly Harwin is making a moral judgement on that entire system, or at least the consequences of playing it in a zero-sum way. But then that is why he is with the BWB and not riding with the young wolf I suppose. But with a nod to the value of vengeance thread and Arya I AGOT the marriage as a needle to stitch together the realm offers a better hope than the sword and the cycle of bloodshed.

ETA links, an addition on Robin Hood

[Mladen]

On Squirrels and squirrelism

If you are of a heretical disposition then remember that the Children of the Forest are called the Squirrel people by the giants (ADWD) and Bran at first seeing Leaf assumes that it is his sister Arya, or someone very like her. We've seen Arya, squirrel like on the tree bough at Harrenhall, here called a squireel and wearing a dress decorated with acorns. All of which might, might, suggest a fundamental connection between the Starks and the Children.

Equally we can look at it symbolically. Squirrels famously horde nuts and seeds to feed off during times of scarcity - which is an optimistic image for someone whose identity has for so long been hidden and denied, but then again, squirrels don't always find those hidden hordes again.

More literally the BWB are the squirrels here and Arya the nut. They are hording her and keeping her safe in order to survive the lean times (leaves turning in this chapter to autumn gold).

I like this, Lummel. This entire section is beautifully presented, and it inspired me to add a thing.

Hard walnut is a peculiar fruit.

You'll not break it, but it will break your teeth.

The price of wine is not what once it was,

nor is the world what you think it should be.

The Mountain Wreath - Petar II Petrovic Njegos

I though I could use this quote her in the context of squirrels and nuts. It is one of the most refferenced quotes in Serbian literature, I t talks about weak tribe leader answering on the letter from Grand Vizier of Ottoman Empire.

Now, in Arya context, she is for BWB easy pray, but she is much tougher, stronger than that. To tame Arya is like trying to break a nut with bare teeth. Also, this nut refference can be wonderfully used in the context of `becoming no one`. Arya is Stark, connection between Starks and Children of the Forest is really strong. Trying to make her forget her roots is equally difficult job. Symbolically, Arya is a nut for me, whether we talk about its usage for BWB or her stuborness and impregnability. Something that will make that path of `becoming no one` lot more difficult.

We have really got off with this thread...

[Lummel]

Well roots, trees and nuts ties back to the death and rebirth idea too. If Arya does become no-one in order to survive through the winter then the nut of Arya might still be there to sprout out in the spring. It is an optimistic image. (Brrghh, scary, optimism in ASOIAF, what ever next). There's a link, very approximately with Maester Aemon's advice 'kill the boy and let the man be born' - death is a natural part of life. Certain former parts of life have to be sloughed, like dead wood, like autumn leaves in order to have new life in the spring.

The warning with the Arya character comes from Harwin. She is being forced through this while young and without the mentors that Jon has.

But certainly she is a tough nut herself ;)

[Lyanna Stark]

3. “Girl, you’ll be a woman soon”

It`s so interesting to see Arya reaching the puberty, and being confronted with who she is and how she looks like. She is most comfortable wearing rugs, because therefore she rejects the notion of being lady, but when she`s all dressed up she gets angry. But, interestingly not on dress or her beauty, then on reaction it provokes. Arya isn`t rejecting her feminine side, she just don`t want to be seen as a helpless noblewoman.

All and all, Lyanna, you did a great job. This was very insightful analysis of Arya`s growth and her path. Again, it was really wonderful to read it...

I'm glad you (and everyone else so far) liked it, I really felt it went all over the place despite my best efforts. :lol:

Arya's looks are often a point of discussion, but I think from Lady Smallwood's commentary and Gendry's reaction, we can safely surmise that Arya is not in any way an ugly girl. She may look scruffy and less ladylike next to her sister Sansa, but it also indicates that her looks may be something she is growing into, and that she will likely turn out more like Lyanna who is described as having a "wild beauty" instead of Sansa's Tully look and colouring, which is more traditionally beautiful. We also have Lady Smallwood talk about her daughter being good at dancing here, and Arya converses with her about needlework, while really Arya is also hiding that she doesn't mean the traditionally feminine type of needlework but something completely different. In any case, it highlights to me that while Arya may not feel comfortable being a lady and only being that, she's actually perfectly capable of playing the part of one, should she have to.

I fear you seek a ghost.

Lord Beric is called the lightning lord, and he appears at different places quickly and consistently. Blitzkreig or "lightning war" was used by Erwin Rommel in WWII, his division was known as the Ghost Division, because it would appear up in consistently in places at such speed.

I like this reference. It's further highlighted I think by Beric also being a "dead man" several times over, so he really falls into the ghost/zombie category here too. Plus he exacts revenge (of sorts) and/or justice, just like "ghost of Harrenhal" did.

For instance one of the great things about this chapter is how it deepens our vision of GRRM's world and makes it complex. The peasant's perspective on their Tully overlords is of people who can have villages destroyed. Until that moment the Tully / Great Lord perspective was the natural one for us. Had we paused to consider the people whose cattle were stolen by Lions or Wolves?

Indeed. Arya's journey in ACOK deals with the fallout for the smallfolk, and here we get further information about how the "common people pray for rain" and really don't care whether their overlords are wolves, lions or trouts. They're more concerned about getting enough food for winter. Where the bloody Kingslayer is, they really could not be less bothered with. I liked the realism where the BWB may talk about a righteous cause, but they still know Hoster Tully has his own justice and that he won't necessarily agree with them, or be happy that they brought him his granddaughter (as a hostage, ofc).

I like Harwin's line "No child should be made to suffer that", it is an in-book moral judgement on what Arya has endured (at least the edited version) we accept it and are shocked, but here is a book character telling another that it was wrong. But as we've seen Arya's conveyor belt journey through the slaughter house flowed naturally as a result of the Game of Thrones ("you win or you die") (heh heh, the game theory of the game of thrones). Implicitly Harwin is making a moral judgement on that entire system, or at least the consequences of playing it in a zero-sum way. But then that is why he is with the BWB and not riding with the young wolf I suppose. But with a nod to the value of vengeance thread and Arya I AGOT the marriage as a needle to stitch together the realm offers a better hope than the sword and the cycle of bloodshed.

Yes, I also found Harwin's words here interesting. He's both judging the system and telling Arya it was wrong, but also, as a reader, I drew the conclusion that "no child should be made to suffer that" also inferred that after going through something like that, you are no longer a child, in some respect. And Arya's own thoughts here reflect that reality. She's both growing up very quickly, and yet in some respects stuck in arrested development.

The needle as something to stitch things together with is great imagery as well. You just don't poke holes with a needle, you mend things.

[Daphne23]

Arya as a girl and future woman. I touched upon this already, but there are several references to Arya growing up in this chapter, that she is pretty even if she is not a traditional lady. It’s further helped along by references to sex, romantic love and even marriage plus by the Lyanna reference in the last chapter. Arya herself emphasizes that she is growing up and will be a woman grown soon.

I don't have my book at the moment so I can't comment in detail, but this I find really interesting. This is one of the rare chapters in the books (after Game) where Arya is 'Arya Stark', rather than taking on another identity, and I find it interesting that it's so full of references to sex, love, puberty and adulthood. Arya tells us that she is nearly eleven, or, in other words, she's nearly the same age that Sansa was at the beginning of Game, and we know that while eleven-year-old Sansa was extremely naive, she was certainly moving away from childhood in her thoughts about romantic love, marriage and having her own children. Arya also wears a dress for one of the few (perhaps the only?) time since Game, and this makes Gendry see her in a different light. Is this the chapter with the heartbreaking exchange between Arya and Lady Smallwood at the end, when Arya apologises for tearing the dress because it was pretty, and Lady Smallwood tells her that so is she? If so, I think this may also be one of the few chapters where Arya is told something positive about her looks, despite the juxtaposition where she thinks that one reason Cat may not want her back is because she looks so awful (tragic, because of course Cat would never think anything of the sort).

I find all this interesting because it seems, by reverting to her 'childhood' role of Arya Stark - to reference the last chapter when Arya abruptly became a child again when discovered, and referred back to childhood memories - Arya is able to start developing again, and to look forward naturally to the next few years when she will grow closer to womanhood, and when sex and relationships will become a part of her life. There was a lot of emphasis at the beginning of the last chapter that Arya was 'no longer a child' but it seems to me that to properly begin to grow up again, Arya has had to go back to childhood before she is able to move on from it, reasserting a more natural course of development. Of course, we know this interlude as Arya Stark is interrupted, but we aren't there yet.

[Lyanna Stark]

Great points Daphne. :)

It's a bit like the advise given to Dany "To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

This is indeed the chapter where Arya apologises for tearing the Acorn dress and tells Lady Smallwood is was very pretty, to which Lady Smallwood responds that so is Arya. From memory "And so are you child, be brave."

The of an age with AGOT Sansa struck me as well, as Sansa was 11 in AGOT, and Arya points out here that she will be 11 soon too.

[Lummel]

If you are picking up on references to sex then you have

"I'm not a squirrel," she said,"I'll almost be a woman soon. I'll be one-and-ten."

"Best watch out I don't marry you then"" He tried to tickle her under the chin, but Arya slapped his stupid hand away.

slap and tickle is a euphemism for foreplay in British English. Nice to see "stupid" again - one of Arya's favourite words.

Daphne23's reversion to childhood is a theme shared across several POVs - think Tyrion (repeatedly) but I suppose Bran too, being confined to the basket he been permanently trapped in the role of an infant.

I agree Lyanna that Harwin's words are double edged. No child should be put through such an experience, having been through it they are hardly a child any more but have been exposed to a very bleak world in which all protections have been stripped away.

"what if Robb won't pay their price...kings were supposed to put the realm before their sisters" uh-oh irony alert, little sister knows more about being a king than the big bad brother (substituting 'girls' for 'sisters').

ETA lets spam up the thread...here's another one for complexity. We have Lady Smallwood telling Arya that it is better to be someone insignificant in time of war, an idea that Jaime will later echo in regard to Arya...but we've seen already in ACOK and we see in ASOS that if you are insignificant you can be killed or abused out of hand by those with more powerful. Being the golden squirrel is safer, or at least, thinking of Sansa in her golden cages, your chances of dying casually are much reduced.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Adding a few (unorganized) details that give us a glimpse on her character and personality.

Facing the ugly reality

The people she meets with the Brotherhood are the sorts of people Arya liked to talk to: squires and grooms and serving girls, old men and naked children, rough-spoken freeriders of uncertain birth. The kind of people she has always liked to make friends and whose fate she has shared during her wandering.

This kind of people is not discriminating between wolves and lions: they are suffering equally by both.

Arya knows by now what it's like to be one of them but in the same time she is takes pride of her identity as a daughter of Winterfell and the North. Her people are not the 'good ones' as she has to witness. She feels ashamed for what they have done. In addition to the dichotomy she has to face, this also demonstrates her mentality of collective identity, of belonging to a wider entity, to a "pack".

A practical mind

High Heart had been sacred to the children of the forest, Tom Sevenstrings told her, and some of their magic lingered here still. "No harm can ever come to those as sleep here," the singer said. Arya thought that must be true; the hill was so high and the surrounding lands so flat that no enemy could approach unseen.

Her interaction with Lady Smallwood show that beeing nice to her can work miracles on her behaviour.

Beauty & Child vs woman

Arya is growing and she's growing into her looks, but she's clearly still a child in relation to sex and romance. She has no clue what being pretty is about. She gets angry when Gendry calls her pretty (pretty --> proper little lady --> weak and powerless) but comming from Lady Smallwood, she appreciates it. In her mind, being pretty is a way to please her mother. Her father an Jon had called her pretty as well but they didn't count. They are men, they don't care for such stuff, what do they know?

------------

Possible forshadowing

"No? I have always found it so. The gods give each of us our little gifts and talents, and it is meant for us to use them, my aunt always says. Any act can be a prayer, if done as well as we are able. Isn't that a lovely thought? Remember that the next time you do your needlework. Do you work at it every day?"

This quote in retrospect made me think of the FM, perfectioning the act of killing as a prayer to the many faced god.

"I wish I had a flaming sword." Arya could think of lots of people she'd like to set on fire.

The wish for a good, mean, lion-killing dog came true. What about this one?

-----------

Unrelated...

The "maiden of the tree" is, for me, one of the most beautiful songs in the series.

[Ragnorak]

Really well done, Lyanna. This chapter is both dense and all over the place. Very interesting posts all around too-- great stuff.

There's a bit of a light hearted feel to this chapter and plenty of humor. They laugh, joke and generally enjoy themselves. There's plenty of references to death (though Arya herself doesn't consider killing anyone) which is a contrast to how very alive the people act. We've been noticing a great deal of mummery in Tyrion and Connington's chapters but here there is an open honesty with no facade. Even the highborn lady that used to bed the singer isn't a hushed secret. The decption and masks that define the Game of Thrones are simply absent.

Lady Smallwood says that in war it is better to be a no one while Tyrion (when he gets Robb's peace offer) thinks that it is better to be highborn. Arya's journey through the Riverlands certainly proves that being a nobody isn't exactly a picnic. I do see a gender difference here though. Jaime thinks Sansa is better off as a commoner and Lady Smallwood thinks the same for Arya. I don't think any male ever thinks it would be better or safer to be a commoner in times of war. It is better to be highborn period. Sansa avoids Jeyne Poole's fate and Brienne is spared some horrors as well. The BWB's existence is premised on the ill fate of the smallfolk. Still, there is a drawback to being highborn and a woman as Sansa experiences and Cersei calls in Ilyn Payne to avoid.

The Tully's get worse criticism than they deserve I suspect-- at least Edmure. Edmure was defeated in round one because he allowed his host to break up to protect the smallfolk. He also let the smallfolk and their useless mouths into Riverrun. I don't often feel particularly compelled to defend Edmure but he is more motivated to protect smallfolk than most lords. He did, in the end, fail to protect them and there is no credit for effort in war.

We've got references to two one-eyed people and then the Ghost of Highheart's coloring which bring Bloodraven to mind.

She had been asleep, but the storm woke her. The wind pulled the coverlet right off her and sent it swirling into the bushes. When she went after it she heard voices.

“The old gods stir and will not let me sleep,” she heard the woman say.

According to Osha it is the old gods who send the wind. The wind pulls her coverlet off and draws pulls it to where Arya can hear the prophesy. The old gods are not letting Arya sleep either.

To add to the Arya/CotF connections Maeter Luwin also tells Bran the CotF used to live in secret tree towns.

Also the religious images here are among the densest in any chapter. We have a sept, a great aunt septa, a begging brother, WiDMNDBAMMD's legion of sevens with every single aspect coming up at least once. Arya the maid, Lady Smallwood the mother, the Ghost of Highheart and her septa aunt the crones, Gendry the smith takes her to the forge, they both mention their fathers, and there are plenty of warrior refences starting with the opening and lord Lychester. We have the sacred weirwood grove, the acorn and oak refences, the Gods Eye gets name dropped, the Northern savages who worship trees, the hideout in the trees as well as the red priests with repeated Thoros mentions.

[brashcandy]

Lovely analysis, Lyanna, and great observations by everyone so far.

The wish for a good, mean, lion-killing dog came true. What about this one?

Beric's flaming sword that she hoped would kill the lion-killing dog for Mycah's murder? Or perhaps not a literal sword at all.

[Punchslap]

Arya's looks are often a point of discussion, but I think from Lady Smallwood's commentary and Gendry's reaction, we can safely surmise that Arya is not in any way an ugly girl.

I've seen her looks debated as well (I agree with Lyanna about her appearance, incidentally) and I wonder why she's written this way--not so much about Arya's own self-reflections or how people in-book react to her, but does GRRM worry the character would be rejected by readership if she didn't have some level of attractiveness built-in? I'm trying to think if there are any POV women who are truly ugly and (if not) what that says. Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but it's something I've wondered about that's clearly an element of Arya (and Brienne's) character. It may be a stupid question, but it sprang to mind.

[Mladen]

I've seen her looks debated as well (I agree with Lyanna about her appearance, incidentally) and I wonder why she's written this way--not so much about Arya's own self-reflections or how people in-book react to her, but does GRRM worry the character would be rejected by readership if she didn't have some level of attractiveness built-in? I'm trying to think if there are any POV women who are truly ugly and (if not) what that says. Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but it's something I've wondered about that's clearly an element of Arya (and Brienne's) character. It may be a stupid question, but it sprang to mind.

Well, beauty is in the eye of beholder, never forget that. But, we have some phisically ugly women like Brienne, Lysa, I also never thought of Asha being beautiful, Dornish women seem seductive but not that beautiful. Also, there is emotional ugliness of variety women like Cersei, Lysa again, and so on. Martin is decribing women same as men, some are beautiful and some aren`t. The thing with Arya is that she`s child, who doesn`t want to be ladylike. Her wanderings made her a bit unpreserved unlike other noblewomen, but that doesn`t mean she`s ugly. Unlike so many women who have thought of their beauty (Sansa, Cersei,Arianne, Catelyn) or are said to be beautiful, we don`t have that in Arya chapters. She doesn`t think about her looks, with exception of remmebering childish teasing about horseface.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Beric's flaming sword that she hoped would kill the lion-killing dog for Mycah's murder? Or perhaps not a literal sword at all.

In the previous chapter, they were talking about litteral dogs and she made a wish:

"I wish I had a good mean dog," said Arya wistfully. "A lion-killing dog."

Later, she meets the Hound and we know how it ended. Her wish was fulfilled in a non-litteral way and, although it seemed like a situation to showcase the "be careful of what you wish for" saying, fate made it so to be a life-saving event.

In this chapter they are talking about litteral flaming swords, the ones that Thoros uses, with the wildfire trick, and Arya wishes that she had one, too.

Now, there is a lot of talking about a magical flaming sword that we have no idea what it is, if it's even a sword - there are quite a few interpretations and speculations.

Is her wish a forshadowing that she's somehow related with that flaming sword?

Personally I think it's more about GRRM throwing possibilities here and there to have us worder, but still...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

About her beauty:

I think that Arya directly relates beauty with the lady's role that she is expected to fulfill. This is the reason she displays contradictory reaction to being perceived as pretty / not pretty.

On the one hand, she rejects the traditional role of the "lady" thus rejecting (for herself) all the related qualities/behaviours and in a way, she defines herself by embracing the oposite. She doesn't want to look pretty because she doesn't want to be a lady.

On the other hand, she has some serious insecurities about her mother's love for her, that originate from the "knowledge" that she has disapointed her by not meeting her expectations. She wants to be pretty as a way to please her mother in order to win her love.

Of course this is very sad, as we know how much Cat loves her - she 'd pay any price to have her girls back and consider it a bargain...