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The Unholy Consult Previews 2: Murder Shae Wrote


Rhom

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Maybe the Nonmen already thought about pits a lot before they renamed the Ark the Pit of Obscenities?

I just assumed this was becuase a giant spaceship crashing would leave a huge crater, and thus an unnatural (but very real) pit.

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Consciousness does not equate to ensouled. Skin-spies are intelligent - we get POVs as early as TDTCB - and even Sranc have some intelligence. Wracu also are conscious and intelligent. And yet with the exception of the Mandate skin-spy (and possibly Wracu?) none of them have souls.

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I thought that Yatwerians were the most popular cult in the kingdoms? Their wane would have to be pretty fucking significant.
They might be - but they were even more powerful before Kellhus. Or at least more populous. There was no indication that Yatwer's power came from worship or really anything. And from Psatma's description - how she'll be protected by Yatwer for her faith in the afterlife - there's no real clear indication that this is because of the power that was granted to Yatwer because of their worship.
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Consciousness does not equate to ensouled. Skin-spies are intelligent - we get POVs as early as TDTCB - and even Sranc have some intelligence. Wracu also are conscious and intelligent. And yet with the exception of the Mandate skin-spy (and possibly Wracu?) none of them have souls.

Yeah, seems like consciousness allows an opening through which the Outside can ensoul a being. However, this is not something that has to happen.

I wonder about the skin spy with a soul though. If the Consult was capable of reverse engineering, or even retracting exactly what they did, wouldn't they theoretically be able to make more such skin spies?

Seems to indicate just how much of the Consult's achievements are guess work. Perhaps even the No God was initially more of an accident than something planned.

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I agree that the Gods don't require people for power but I think its clear that they require people in order to exercise that power in the world - why else would killing humans shut the world from the Outside?

Consciousness does not equate to ensouled. Skin-spies are intelligent - we get POVs as early as TDTCB - and even Sranc have some intelligence. Wracu also are conscious and intelligent. And yet with the exception of the Mandate skin-spy (and possibly Wracu?) none of them have souls.

Consciousness must equal ensouled in Earwa. Skin-Spies [and the creatures of the Tekne - though, Wracu have always been difficult to place - maybe they're straight clones, no genomic augmentation] are intelligent mimicry - hense, this clear-cut distinction (perhaps, not entirely valid) that ensouled creatures can apprehend paradox. There are also rumours of Sranc or animals randoming being ensouled, in some fashion.

I wonder about the skin spy with a soul though. If the Consult was capable of reverse engineering, or even retracting exactly what they did, wouldn't they theoretically be able to make more such skin spies?

Priorities. Clearly, they've fashioned at least two creatures without the aid of the Inchoroi - Ursranc and Skin-Spies. They seem to have already decided that the No-God is the ultimate way to achieve their goals and want only to recover he/she/it, simply assuming that their defeat last time was a fluke...? People don't cultivate other options when they've already decided to do something a certain way.

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Skin-Spies [and the creatures of the Tekne - though, Wracu have always been difficult to place - maybe they're straight clones, no genomic augmentation] are intelligent mimicry

I don't think it's that clear cut that these beings aren't conscious. Wracu and skin-spies possess self awareness after all. In fact, we don't have a reliable way to differentiate who has a soul and who doesn't, we only have Akka's assurance...though I can't recall how he discovered apprehension of paradox requires a soul.

There are also rumours of Sranc or animals randoming being ensouled, in some fashion.

Any chance you have a reference on animals and Sranc randomly being ensouled?

eta: Second quote.

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Since the Nonmen no longer reproduce, it only affected humans. The idea has been that only the rare animal ever 'awakens' enough to develop a soul in Earwa, but that's not something I've ever explored to date.

I think there's another that corroborates this one a little more but... not really evidence.

EDIT: The No-God and the extent of the Barren Wombs

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I don't buy that skin-spies are just advanced mimicry. Let's look at an exerpt or two from the Sarcellus POV from TDTCB:

He freed his fingers and gently clutched her [Esmi's] knees. He thought of her cunny, pressed tight and greasy between her legs, and shivered with hunger. To simply be where the Architect had been! To thrust where he had thrusted. It at once humbled and engorged. To plunge into a furnace stoked by the Old Father!

[....]

Then he left Esmenet and strode through the flaps of the Knight-Commander's pavilion. He cackled under his breath, thinking of the things he would do to her.

[....]Light bled from its [the Synthese's] eyes. [...] Roared through what passed for Maëngi's soul. [...] Shattering whatever thoughts, whatever passions he might call his own.

So we can see a clear inner monologue and self-awareness, plus the text explicitly states that he has thoughts and passions of his own, if overwhelmed by his sexual programming.

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Don't you interpret that to mean that there's such lack of goingons in there that this is the most bare description Bakker can use to communicate to us... mostly conscious persons that state of constructed consciousness?

Also, aren't the Skin-Spies travelling with Cnaiur in TTT far more representative of their vapid "selves," if such things exist?

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Yeah, I think we're waiting and seeing on that, Wrath - don't feel bad... I mean, I've reread the books a number of times but I think lockesnow has notes up until midway through TWP, solo's [done] the PON - as far as I could tell - [and I'm writing them as I go].

I think, Sci and Wrath, that the Skin-Spy conversation with Mimara in WLW is the crux of our conversation... it reminded me off all those Sci-Fi robots that just want to be real - [also, Bakker, not Achamian, on a random one-off blog answer, was my inspiration for the "grasping paradox" commentary.]

I guess it's up to ambiguity - I just never saw them [the Skin-Spies] as anything more than surfaces. It's reminiscent of Kellhus - these things don't speal to communicate or even think to muse: they play out pre-programmed instructions, parameters?

I mean, so do we, so I don't know how "conscious" I'd rank, but some trick of 'awareness' ranks ensoulment in Earwa, as per above, neh?

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Heh, I think it's funny we're playing out "The Measure of a Man" but instead of supporting Data being human we're arguing for the abominations made by the Tekne.

I don't think t[h]ere's much difference between ensouled and unensouled Sranc or skin-spies. The Mandati skin-spy followed its parameters after all.

I suspect it[']s supposed to be ambiguous. When they torture the Sranc b/c the monsters have no souls, it made me think of Virgil admonishing Dante for pitying the damned in Inferno. Classic dehumanization technique.

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I think the soul and non-souled thing is Bakker's attempt to give an explanation in Earwa for the concept that he's covering in blind brain theory - that without a soul we are just automatons, but with a soul we have some inherent consciousness. So if you follow that logically, it would mean that the Tekne creatures all believe themselves to be conscious and intelligent but cannot grasp there is something more (BBT) and are more like us non-souled humans. The Earwans are the nice guys that actually have souls and there is more to them than simply stimulus and response, rationalizations and self-delusion.

It's an analogy, of course; Kellhus preys on the notion of the BBT as a matter of course. But I think otherwise that it's correct - that the intent is that those without souls don't have 'real' consciousnesses, only simulacrums of it.

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I think the soul and non-souled thing is Bakker's attempt to give an explanation in Earwa for the concept that he's covering in blind brain theory - that without a soul we are just automatons, but with a soul we have some inherent consciousness. So if you follow that logically, it would mean that the Tekne creatures all believe themselves to be conscious and intelligent but cannot grasp there is something more (BBT) and are more like us non-souled humans. The Earwans are the nice guys that actually have souls and there is more to them than simply stimulus and response, rationalizations and self-delusion.

It's an analogy, of course; Kellhus preys on the notion of the BBT as a matter of course. But I think otherwise that it's correct - that the intent is that those without souls don't have 'real' consciousnesses, only simulacrums of it.

Agree with this. The spies/Tekne creatures can appear to have intelligence and desires, but it's just an (albeit elaborate) impression (Chinese Room sort of thing). It's all just reaction to stimuli. Beings with souls, on the other hand, at least have the potential for free will (coming before), even if most humans don't actually exercise that ability very much, if at all.

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Heh, I think it's funny we're playing out "The Measure of a Man" but instead of supporting Data being human we're arguing for the abominations made by the Tekne.

I don't think t[h]ere's much difference between ensouled and unensouled Sranc or skin-spies. The Mandati skin-spy followed its parameters after all.

I suspect it[']s supposed to be ambiguous. When they torture the Sranc b/c the monsters have no souls, it made me think of Virgil admonishing Dante for pitying the damned in Inferno. Classic dehumanization technique.

I like the thoughts - I'm not sure we can say there is no difference - we don't know how much agency Simas (the Mandate Skin-Spy) expressed outside of "Parameters A - Z."

I think the soul and non-souled thing is Bakker's attempt to give an explanation in Earwa for the concept that he's covering in blind brain theory - that without a soul we are just automatons, but with a soul we have some inherent consciousness. So if you follow that logically, it would mean that the Tekne creatures all believe themselves to be conscious and intelligent but cannot grasp there is something more (BBT) and are more like us non-souled humans. The Earwans are the nice guys that actually have souls and there is more to them than simply stimulus and response, rationalizations and self-delusion.

It's an analogy, of course; Kellhus preys on the notion of the BBT as a matter of course. But I think otherwise that it's correct - that the intent is that those without souls don't have 'real' consciousnesses, only simulacrums of it.

+1 as well. I actually think the distinction is somewhat forced (in the narrative) but we'll have to see how it's played out.

Agree with this. The spies/Tekne creatures can appear to have intelligence and desires, but it's just an (albeit elaborate) impression (Chinese Room sort of thing). It's all just reaction to stimuli. Beings with souls, on the other hand, at least have the potential for free will (coming before), even if most humans don't actually exercise that ability very much, if at all.

Chinese Room is exactly how I imagine the Skin-Spies. Thanks for the analogy, Francis.

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Yeah, I think we're waiting and seeing on that, Wrath - don't feel bad... I mean, I've reread the books a number of times but I think lockesnow has notes up until midway through TWP, solo's [done] the PON - as far as I could tell - [and I'm writing them as I go].

I'm only a handful of chapters in on TWP, I've only ever read it and TTT once, so this is just a second reread. I don't have notes, per se, because it becomes too much work to break it down so thoroughly, I don't have the free time, at the moment I've been reduced to just highlighting my kindle copy as I read.

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