The Unholy Consult Previews 2: Murder Shae Wrote

[Fredward]

I'm curious, does anyone actually like Kellhus? I can't stand the guy. Also the reason (almost) all his kids are so utterly fucked up is because of the inbreeding that must have taken place in that hole in the ground he grew up in yah? That place disturbs me. The description of the faceless people was bad even for this series. And what are the theories on the effect all that nonman dust is gonna have on Mimara's baby? Can't think it's a healthy diet that.

[Happy Ent]

I'm curious, does anyone actually like Kellhus?

“Love is for lesser souls.”

[sologdin]

the theories on the effect all that nonman dust is gonna have on Mimara's baby

mimi jr. will be the no-crack baby.

[Castel]

I'm curious, does anyone actually like Kellhus? I can't stand the guy. Also the reason (almost) all his kids are so utterly fucked up is because of the inbreeding that must have taken place in that hole in the ground he grew up in yah? That place disturbs me. The description of the faceless people was bad even for this series. And what are the theories on the effect all that nonman dust is gonna have on Mimara's baby? Can't think it's a healthy diet that.

Well,more like the mixing with what might as well be a different subspecies at this point.

[Fredward]

Okay now I have a bunch of different questions! Kellhus what is his intentions? Is he a good guy? Is his decision to face the big-bad simply a "all people dying is bad therefore I must do something" kinda thing or is he even becoming something vaguely resembling human? There are times in the books when I think that maybe he is but then he just shows his dead-insideness. Except for (and it's been a while since I've read the books so bear with me) when he confides in whatshisface. Or does he confide? My memories are incredibly hazy here but he tells someone stuff that come awfully close to the truth but I can't remember if that was just another elaborate manipulation scheme.

Also how did Cnaiur die? He finally found the old dude and they got their thang on and then what? Did he do something seppeku-esque? Did the monster-people eat him? Were the monster people even still with him? And I shouldn't have been but I was totally surprised when it turned out that he actually totally did have sex with Kellhus' dad.

Some things that make me wonder if there is a spark of humanity in Kellhus is the fact that he let Achaiman live. I don't get why he did that. Unless he wanted him to eventually find the hole in the ground. And another thing is why let his insane son live? That makes no sense at all. There's more subtle stuff too, I'm sure of it, but I can't remember them anymore. I'm sure it's Bakker's intention for this to be so ambiguous and the idea of a protag being a bag-o-dicks is kinda brilliant but I'd really like to hear some other peoples opinions.

As for the hole in the ground, what do ya'll think Achaiman will do when he gets there? Or what if he doesn't? Though that'll be horribly anti-climactic. And will Mimara's magical unmagic abilities play some bigger role or is she just a plot device to deliver the whatever-her-baby-turns-out-to-be? And the incest scene with Kellhus' kids. What IS it with medieval literature and incest? And I really liked Kellhus' daughter. She seems (well seemed now) like one of the more normal ones. Not that I dislike all the weird ones. His other daughter is probably my favorite. The evil twin scares me and needs to die in hellfire. Which I didn't think I'd ever say about a kid but really, that thing is like condensed satan sweat.

And lastly, when is the next book coming out? xp

[Maithanet]

Okay now I have a bunch of different questions! Kellhus what is his intentions? Is he a good guy? Is his decision to face the big-bad simply a "all people dying is bad therefore I must do something" kinda thing or is he even becoming something vaguely resembling human?

Well, there's about thirty Bakker threads before this one where this subject comes up a lot. Short answer, nobody is really sure what Kellhus is up to, but there are theories.

There are times in the books when I think that maybe he is but then he just shows his dead-insideness. Except for (and it's been a while since I've read the books so bear with me) when he confides in whatshisface. Or does he confide? My memories are incredibly hazy here but he tells someone stuff that come awfully close to the truth but I can't remember if that was just another elaborate manipulation scheme.

I'm not sure which heart to heart you're talking about, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that it is just another manipulation. Truth vs lies is inconsequential to a dunyain, all that matters is the utility to get a certain result.

Also how did Cnaiur die? He finally found the old dude and they got their thang on and then what? Did he do something seppeku-esque? Did the monster-people eat him? Were the monster people even still with him? And I shouldn't have been but I was totally surprised when it turned out that he actually totally did have sex with Kellhus' dad.

You're right, you shouldn't have been :cool4: It looks like he slit his own throat at the end of TTT, and yes, the skin spies were still with him at that point. It remains possible that he is still around, and if so, he is likely working for the Consult.

Some things that make me wonder if there is a spark of humanity in Kellhus is the fact that he let Achaiman live. I don't get why he did that. Unless he wanted him to eventually find the hole in the ground. And another thing is why let his insane son live? That makes no sense at all. There's more subtle stuff too, I'm sure of it, but I can't remember them anymore. I'm sure it's Bakker's intention for this to be so ambiguous and the idea of a protag being a bag-o-dicks is kinda brilliant but I'd really like to hear some other peoples opinions.

I wouldn't call Kellhus the protagonist, but he is a huge douche. The main example of "spark of humanity" is when Kellhus feels the human emotion of dismay when he sees Cnauir raping Serwe. That is at least one occasion where you can see something behind those dead eyes, although it's not like he takes any action to help her. Letting Achamian live? It seems pretty obvious that Kellhus isn't finished with Achamian. He walks on conditioned ground even now. What role Akka will play in Kellhus' schemes remains to be seen, but it's something. As for letting his crazy son live...who knows? I doubt it was out of sentiment, although it could have just been to make Esmenet easier to control.

As for the hole in the ground, what do ya'll think Achaiman will do when he gets there? Or what if he doesn't? Though that'll be horribly anti-climactic.

Do you mean Ishual or Golgotterath? Either way, previous threads are your friend here.

And will Mimara's magical unmagic abilities play some bigger role or is she just a plot device to deliver the whatever-her-baby-turns-out-to-be?

The Judging Eye is going to play some big role, I'm fairly confident. Damnation and the Outside are increasingly important in the series. Whether the baby will be a big deal or not...tough to say.

And the incest scene with Kellhus' kids. What IS it with medieval literature and incest? And I really liked Kellhus' daughter. She seems (well seemed now) like one of the more normal ones. Not that I dislike all the weird ones. His other daughter is probably my favorite.

Well, they aren't actually related, they're stepbrother and stepsister, and at least Serwa knows it.

The evil twin scares me and needs to die in hellfire. Which I didn't think I'd ever say about a kid but really, that thing is like condensed satan sweat.

Yeah, Kelmo is bad news. But where does he go from here?

And lastly, when is the next book coming out? xp

NOT YEEEEEETTTTTT

[Sci-2]

I love the term "condensed satan sweat". Did Moeghus the father and Cnauir have sex? I'm pretty sure the skin spies killed him. It's possible they've kept him alive using Shae's soul preservation technique but it's unlikely.

Kellhus weighs risk vs possible reward. Achaiman and his crazy son are not threats to him or his goals, especially once the Great Ordeal is launched.

At the end of TTT Achaiman was the strongest voice against Kellhus, but his entire critique can be dismissed on account of him being cuckolded. That in itself is good strategy.

Beyond that, Akka running away to be an exile means Kellhus has a potential pawn to be used at a later date, which is exactly what happens.

Killing his crazy son would also deprive him of a potential asset.

I'm not sure what you mean by "hole in the ground"? The underground part of Ishual? It's likely that some Dunyain survived, and it is also possible some of them are already part of Kellhus's army.

We know Mimara is part of some prophecy, though the Consult seems to believe it is a "false" prophecy. This in itself is a topic ripe for discussion - how does one distinguish false prophecies from real ones?

[lokisnow]

Okay now I have a bunch of different questions! Kellhus what is his intentions? Is he a good guy? Is his decision to face the big-bad simply a "all people dying is bad therefore I must do something" kinda thing or is he even becoming something vaguely resembling human? There are times in the books when I think that maybe he is but then he just shows his dead-insideness. Except for (and it's been a while since I've read the books so bear with me) when he confides in whatshisface. Or does he confide? My memories are incredibly hazy here but he tells someone stuff that come awfully close to the truth but I can't remember if that was just another elaborate manipulation scheme.

Kellhus is kind of a deliberate Mary Sue, he's meant by the author to fulfill and undermine that familiar genre trope--so in a sense he's the ultimate Ender Wiggin/DocSavage but while being an uberdouche like those two he's also being illustrated pretty negatively, undermining the hero-worship and "I Can Fix It" aspects of that characterization (I can save the world if you just let me run everything). The ambivalence you feel towards Kellhus is purposeful, he feels like a hero, he acts like a hero, he claims to have the motives of a hero, but is internal monologue is all about taking on these mantles for the purposes of deception. Readers naturally don't like to think they're deceived as the less enlightened characters of the novel are deceived, so they think the knowledge they have of Kellhus being deceitful means they can't be also deceived, but the suspicion is there from most readers that the readers have also been duped. In other words. We don't know Kellhus' game. We know his official reason, we also know his official reason for seizing control of the holy war, we also know that the official reason differed a lot from his internal reason.

Just look at Cnaiur/Moenghus. Kellhus never mentions needing to kill Moenghus until he realizes that saying this is leverage to motivate and control Cnaiur. so far as I've seen, Kellhus never mentions going to Shimeh for the purpose of killing Moenghus in any of his internal monologues--all his internal monologues simply seek to successfully meet up with Moenghus. Arguably he doesn't even decide to Kill Moenghus until the Twig scene in TTT just before meeting Moe, yet I think a lot of discussion assumptions precede from the belief that what he told Cnaiur was true (iirc, he even tells us as he tells Cnaiur he goes to kill Moenghus that this is an expedient lie meant to better control Cnaiur). Right with this example, readers tend to take the after, the outcome, and use it to justify a biased reading of the before, we deceive ourselves even as Kellhus deceives characters. :-p

Also how did Cnaiur die? He finally found the old dude and they got their thang on and then what? Did he do something seppeku-esque? Did the monster-people eat him? Were the monster people even still with him? And I shouldn'thave been but I was totally surprised when it turned out that he actually totally did have sex with Kellhus' dad.

If Cnaiur is dead he died at his own hand. He cut a swazond on his throat which means he slit his own throat open. Cnaiur and Moenghus did not have sex in this scene. Cnaiur touched Moenghus with a chorae and presumably Moenghus died. The SkinSpies may have saved Cnaiur, and presumably they were still with him.

Some things that make me wonder if there is a spark of humanity in Kellhus is the fact that he let Achaiman live. I don't get why he did that. Unless he wanted him to eventually find the hole in the ground. And another thing is why let his insane son live? That makes no sense at all. There's more subtle stuff too, I'm sure of it, but I can't remember them anymore. I'm sure it's Bakker's intention for this to be so ambiguous and the idea of a protag being a bag-o-dicks is kinda brilliant but I'd really like to hear some other peoples opinions.

Kellhus needed Achamian to write the Compendium of the First Holy War, he needed a “Witness” someone who would “Testify.” Such a document would only be treated seriously by his enemies if it were written by someone estranged from him, thus he can control even how and what his enemies know. It also seems that Kellhus does want Achamian to find IShual.

Kellhus let Inrilitus live because he couldn’t kill any of their children and still maintain control over Esmenet, presumably. And yeah, Kellhus is something of a pro/an-tagonist.

As for the hole in the ground, what do ya'll think Achaiman will do when he gets there? Or what if he doesn't? Though that'll be horribly anti-climactic. And will Mimara's magical unmagic abilities play some bigger role or is she just a plot device to deliver the whatever-her-baby-turns-out-to-be? And the incest scene with Kellhus' kids. What IS it with medieval literature and incest? And I really liked Kellhus' daughter. She seems (well seemed now) like one of the more normal ones. Not that I dislike all the weird ones. His other daughter is probably my favorite. The evil twin scares me and needs to die in hellfire. Which I didn't think I'd ever say about a kid but really, that thing is like condensed satan sweat.

I don’t know what Achamian will find when they get there, it may be a mixture of revelation and anti-climax. Mimara will definitely play a bigger role, in my estimation.

As for the Incest scene, the kids are trying to make Sorweel hate them, they’re trying to control/condition him, so they’re trying to exploit his crush on Serwe to make him hate them. Also, it’s incest in the sense that step-children having sex is incest, no blood relations, no shared parents, but grew up in the same house.

And yeah, Kelmomas is one fucked up creature, perhaps he’ll serve a Gollum esque purpose? Or maybe that role is reserved for the last of the Skin Eaters.

[sologdin]

cofferses! we hates it, precious!

[Castel]

I wouldn't call Kellhus the protagonist, but he is a huge douche. The main example of "spark of humanity" is when Kellhus feels the human emotion of dismay when he sees Cnauir raping Serwe. That is at least one occasion where you can see something behind those dead eyes, although it's not like he takes any action to help her. Letting Achamian live? It seems pretty obvious that Kellhus isn't finished with Achamian. He walks on conditioned ground even now. What role Akka will play in Kellhus' schemes remains to be seen, but it's something. As for letting his crazy son live...who knows? I doubt it was out of sentiment, although it could have just been to make Esmenet easier to control.

Yeah. Kellhus is the biggest subversion of that "Bones" character- the rigid logical man being turned on to the benefits of friendship- ever. Don't expect him to see the good of the human spirit/emotion any time soon. Every time he's ever shown pity it ends up being a strategic move. The only time it seems otherwise is when he spared Cnaiur the second time (the first time was because he found his weakness) and even then he used the man as a suicide bomber.

Kellhus let Inrilitus live because he couldn’t kill any of their children and still maintain control over Esmenet, presumably.

Esmenet is well in hand at this point. Besides, she's generally kept away from Inrilatas.I can see the benefit to having Samarmas around. Inrilatas?

[sologdin]

I'm not sure what you mean by "hole in the ground

refers to CuS pregging yatwer, 'course.

[Happy Ent]

Fred, welcome to this thread. Please forgive us for just referring you to hundreds of previous threads.

Or does he confide? My memories are incredibly hazy here but he tells someone stuff that come awfully close to the truth but I can't remember if that was just another elaborate manipulation scheme.

The clearest part is when he talks directly to the God at the end of TTT, Chapter XIV.

“What was I to do. They [world-born men] attend only to what lies before there eyes. […]”

[…]

“What was I to do? Tell them the truth?”

Clearly Kellhus cannot tell them the truth. The future of the world depends on it. He must lie and manipulate. But he is God’s instrument. As he tells Acka, who else would the God have chosen for His vessel?

So I think Kellhus is exactly what he says he is. He’ll save the world. But he’s not a nice guy. (Why ever would we think that the Saviour would be nice?)

[lokisnow]

Esmenet is well in hand at this point. Besides, she's generally kept away from Inrilatas.I can see the benefit to having Samarmas around. Inrilatas?

hmm, what was the event that caused Esmenet to go to the mattresses? Inrilatas' death at the hands of a Kellhus stand-in

[Sci-2]

There is no definite benefit to Inrilatas. But there isn't any advantage to killing him. Would you trust a man who murders his son to [be] the avatar of a supposedly compassionate God?

I wonder, is there a precedent for messiahs or even holy men in Earwa having babies born with varying degrees of mental/physical issues?

Seems like Bakker overestimates the rationalization of the religious here?

[Sci-2]

Every faction on Earwa is gambling. Even the Consult, who are presuming the Inverse Fire is real and that they can somehow sort out false and true prophecies.

What's a "false" prophecy but a claim about the future made outside your faith system?

[sologdin]

Every faction on Earwa is gambling. Even the Consult, who are presuming the Inverse Fire is real and that they can somehow sort out false and true prophecies.

What's a "false" prophecy but a claim about the future made outside your faith system?

it's got to be more than that, lest we are unable to distinguish scientific or economic prediction from prophecy.

[Sci-2]

I mean a definite claim, as opposed to a prediction based on prior observation.

I'd classify a claim as a prophecy if it demands what comes after determines what comes before.

ETA: trisk, fane discovered a new way to perform magic. Beyond that why assume he knows anything that might assure salvation?

[Sci-2]

You just hate the idea of meppa being irrelevant.

;-)

[Tears of Lys]

Fred, welcome to this thread. Please forgive us for just referring you to hundreds of previous threads.

The clearest part is when he talks directly to the God at the end of TTT, Chapter XIV.

“What was I to do. They [world-born men] attend only to what lies before there eyes. […]”

[…]

“What was I to do? Tell them the truth?”

Clearly Kellhus cannot tell them the truth. The future of the world depends on it. He must lie and manipulate. But he is God’s instrument. As he tells Acka, who else would the God have chosen for His vessel?

So I think Kellhus is exactly what he says he is. He’ll save the world. But he’s not a nice guy. (Why ever would we think that the Saviour would be nice?)

That's my impression in a nutshell. As for whether I "like" him, as Fredward asked, it's more that I understand him.

hmm, what was the event that caused Esmenet to go to the mattresses? Inrilatas' death at the hands of a Kellhus stand-in

:lol: @ "go to the mattresses."

[Sci-2]

This statement is true.

Well the cishaurim are different. They may recollect the whole of the God better than anyone else. But we don't have any reason to suspect recollection is the key to salvation.

In fact, for all we know Kellhus had a revelation that no one can escape damnation. As HE notes Kellhus may be the perfect instrument of the God but he could still be damned. Perhaps his gamble is that humanity must be connected to the outside if the dunyain goal of a self moving soul is to be achieved.