The Unholy Consult Previews 2: Murder Shae Wrote

[Madness]

Regarding the Third Sight (which refers to the way Cishaurim see without seeing), the idea is that Psukari can actually see souls - those things invisible to the naked eye. Souls 'shine' to the degree they reflect the 'proportion of the God.' So the implication is that the Dunyain somehow reflect the proper proportion..

Spoilerish questions regarding Sorcery

[Sci-2]

Yikes. Cish not detecting skin-spies seems like a major plot hole then.

[Madness]

Unless the common narrative, as we've been exposed to it, is wrong. Which is why I've been quizzing for timing.

Aside from Kellhus' assertion and the Aurang quote I couldn't find earlier, I don't think there is textual evidence offering how and when the Cishaurim discover the Skin-Spies - and that makes it supremely important.

It could be a massive plot-hole, Sci - but I trust.

EDIT: Maybe Moenghus didn't discover them at all?

[Sci-2]

There is another alternative - that several skin spies with souls were sent to infiltrate the Cish. But something about that feels off.

[sologdin]

right. anti-inchie consult sub-faction killed off own spies in fanimry in order to lure inchies. it's a trap! they can't repel firepower of that magnitude!

[Madness]

Kellhus disseminates practical knowledge for identifying and manipulating Skin-Spies to Mimara (an example of non-Dunyain agency)? I'm sure Moenghus could have taught his Sect, either by auditory discrepancy or by snake-vision.

It would be especially weird, Sci, as Maithanet himself reveals that Simas is an anomaly.

solo, you are jokes.

Trisk, we don't know that any Fanim know of the Skin-Spies - just that Moenghus had some that he tortured. We know from Aurang that they couldn't measurably infiltrate Fanim territory and blame Cishaurim metaphysics (themselves only a couple hundred years old since their advent).

[Happy Ent]

I don’t understand this debate.

My understanding has always been that there are plenty of skin spies in Fanim lands, just as there are plenty of skin spies in Sumna. But there are none in the inner circle of Cishaurim High Command, because Moe removed them. Just like Maitha removed them from the Thousand Temples.

The Consult has high-placed skin spies in the Empire (Skaeös, Granny) and in High Ainon (Chepho).

[Madness]

It seems there is a consensus here - for whatever evidence - that the Consult couldn't infiltrate any of the Fanim territories, specifically due to the distribution of Cishaurim.

[Sci-2]

But there are none in the inner circle of Cishaurim High Command, because Moe removed them.

If Cish can see souls, why didn't they notice the absence of souls in the skin-spies?

[sologdin]

yeah, that "souls" detail is better left as in-setting religious doctrine than as fact-of-setting.

[lokisnow]

If Cish can see souls, why didn't they notice the absence of souls in the skin-spies?

I had a long post on this on the previous page and no one seems to have considered it.

They saw what they expected to see. They couldn't grasp the possibility of a person without souls, so their brain edited in a 'faint' soul because that's what they expected to find.

even without eyes they suffer the same biases that afflict the sighted, in other words.

Moe would see through this and could disentangle this bias in the group fairly easily, I would think.

Also, culture and caste would work against exposing a system wide conspiracy that probably involves highly placed individuals of extremely reputable character.

[Sci-2]

Oh I read your post I just found it implausible.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I speculate that the entire damnation thing is going to turn out to be Inchie, Non-man, and human construct, and that no one is actually damned.

[Castel]

I speculate that the entire damnation thing is going to turn out to be Inchie, Non-man, and human construct, and that no one is actually damned.

Wut? Didn't Bakker say that whole nations will be damned?

[Larry of the Lawn]

Yeah but he said a lot of things and I'm not taking that literally. I could certainly be very, very wrong.

[arya_underfoot]

I speculate that the entire damnation thing is going to turn out to be Inchie, Non-man, and human construct, and that no one is actually damned.

Yeah, I've been thinking the same for a while now. I don't really understand the concept of damnation and why it should be such a big deal. I suspect it is simply an Inchoroi ploy to recruit Nonman and human allies in their war against the world. Do we know that the concept of damnation pre-dated the arrival of the Ark?

[Francis Buck]

I'd be super pissed if somehow damnation was all bullshit. That's like one of the coolest aspects of the series to me.

EDIT: I can't actually see it being bullshit in a practical sense. There's way too much groundwork laid down for it to all just end up being a big ploy on the part of mortals (and one with no apparent motive?).

[Castel]

Yeah, I've been thinking the same for a while now. I don't really understand the concept of damnation and why it should be such a big deal. I suspect it is simply an Inchoroi ploy to recruit Nonman and human allies in their war against the world. Do we know that the concept of damnation pre-dated the arrival of the Ark?

Yes? The Inchoroi spent their days destroying every planet they could to see if they could stop it. It's not something they found on Earwa.We have this from a pretty reliable source.

As for why damnation is such a big deal: it's the old philosophical question. In the face of eternal pain there are no crimes.

I'd be super pissed if somehow damnation was all bullshit. That's like one of the coolest aspects of the series to me.

EDIT: I can't actually see it being bullshit in a practical sense. There's way too much groundwork laid down for it to all just end up being a big ploy on the part of mortals (and one with no apparent motive?).

Yeah, it would seem like a bait and switch. And given that we know there are gods and they seem to want to feed on souls damnation seems to be a thing.

The question is:'what's the difference between the soul-munching the Hundred do and the damnation the Inchies are afraid of? Meppa implies that the former is a result of binding oneself to a god through belief and Titirga seems to believe the same, that worshiping oblivion would free sorcerors. But then, the Inchie and sorcerors seemed damned anyway and that would certainly be a trick that they would use.

[Sci-2]

The question is:'what's the difference between the soul-munching the Hundred do and the damnation the Inchies are afraid of?

For I have seen the virtuous in Hell and the wicked in Heaven. And I swear to you, brother, the scream you hear in the one and the sigh you hear in the other sound the same.

–False Sun

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Not to mention there is at least one Ciphrang (the one from TWP) that explicitly tells Iyokus he's damned and implies that it will have Iyokus's soul in the Outside.

When Kellhus meets the Cishie in Caraskand, he tells Kell that the men who follow Moenghus are those who are gifted in the Third Sight. So I believe that Moenghus experimented with and improved the sorcery and technique behind the Third Sight, discovering the skin-spies in the process. He then taught this technique to those skilled enough to use it.

To me that plausibly explains both the apparent timing - Moe's coming coincides roughly with the cleansing of Kian (or at least the Cishaurim) - and with the near-impossibility of Moe finding every one of them by himself. Remember, as Madness said, the idea of Moe identifying them via audible clues comes from Kellhus, not Moe himself.

About Kian being totally uninfiltrated... of course the Consult could secret dozens of hundreds of them into Kian, but they won't get much of anything useful from the peasants. The Cishaurim (or Moe alone) need only eliminate those posing as powerful Grandees to effectively deprive the Consult of reliable, useful information.