The Unholy Consult Previews 2: Murder Shae Wrote

[Sci-2]

Oh I'm confident Big Moe is dead. What I care about is closing the plot hole. Wrath gives the best reasoning so far.

Perhaps after realizing something was wrong with the skin spies [via the discrepancies in their voices], Big Moe does what Wrath mentions and improves the Third Sight.

[Sci-2]

I don't see why we'd doubt the motivations as presented in TTT.

Big Moe wanted to destroy the Consult because he didn't believe in damnation. Letting the No-God walk would ruin the Dunyain mission as it would stop the generational movement toward the self-moving soul.

Thus he did plan for Kellhus to take over. What Kellhus saw was that once Big Moe believed, he would seek to escape damnation.

[sologdin]

I speculate that the entire damnation thing is going to turn out to be Inchie, Non-man, and human construct, and that no one is actually damned.

been liking this since 2006.

[Castel]

been liking this since 2006.

Yeah, you seem to hate the idea of damnation being real solo. Why?

[Sci-2]

I wonder how this issue will be resolved. Right now, with all the tools in the hands of the various factions, there is no way to be certain about who is damned or even if damnation as some universal condition is real.

We can describe have states like that of the Wight that we might describe as damnation, but I don't see any proof of a universal principle.

So what changes in TUC? What new insight could be possible that isn't subject to all the charges of bias and subjectivity regarding the Outside that we've raised?

[Castel]

There seems to be a universal principle though. That's what I was asking about. IT doesn't seem like the Wight or the Inchies are damned for the same reasons that Meppa and Psatma think people are damned. Doing evil shit seems to damn the former. The latter seemed to believe damnation (or exaltation depending on who you ask) is a result of being too close to gods, by believing.

[Sci-2]

Oh, I agree there seems to be a universal principle at work. But from the POV of Earwa's residents they, at this point in the narrative, lack the ability to know what is true and untrue about the afterlife. No one has definitive proof.

So what happens in TUC that changes this?

[Castel]

Do we know that anything is going to change for people on Earwa?

[Sci-2]

Not necessarily. But so far Bakker hasn't, as far as I remember, put down anything in the text that is outside the perspective of Earwans.

So if there is going to be a definitive answer to the question "Who is damned?" it'll almost certainly involve shift in awareness of the characters in the world rather than Bakker informing the reader but keeping the characters in the dark.

Of course, this also threatens to leave us with more cheesy 40K-esque descriptions of the Outside like the fate Mimara sees for Galian. I'm still hoping that was based on her own conditioning rather than insight into the absolute.

[Castel]

Not necessarily. But so far Bakker hasn't, as far as I remember, put down anything in the text that is outside the perspective of Earwans.

So if there is going to be a definitive answer to the question "Who is damned?" it'll almost certainly involve shift in awareness of the characters in the world rather than Bakker informing the reader but keeping the characters in the dark.

Of course, this also threatens to leave us with more cheesy 40K-esque descriptions of the Outside like the fate Mimara sees for Galian. I'm still hoping that was based on her own conditioning rather than insight into the absolute.

You're more hopeful than me then :).

Yeah, we'll probably be getting more info on who is damned from Mimara (as well as more info on whatever the fuck happened in Cil-Aujas hopefully) but most people are probably fucked. Nothing will change for them.Which is fitting considering that they're all playing the lottery.

[sologdin]

Yeah, you seem to hate the idea of damnation being real solo. Why?

the thesis wants evidence in the text. sure, RSB has made extratextual comments that authorize that line of inquiry, so these discussions are not at all frivolous--but that's his reading, if the comments are serious, and authors have no monopoly on interpretation of their writings.

the argument that damnation is real is in itself not unreasonable, based on the text itself, but the argument proceeds only on the basis of theologies presented in dialogue or in documents quoted in the setting. none of that is dispositive. RSB is very precise in specifying that so and so believes such and such, whereas this other guy contends whatnot, as in the TTT glossary and other faux omniscient sections.

were there an unambiguous scene of damnation, then y'all'd be cooking with gas. if that scene shows up in volume VI, i'll change my title to masturbating orc, or some other dumbass bit from the novels.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Looking back at the quote with Hifanat, I am actually more convinced of my theory.

Kellhus stood motionless, holding tight his Chorae.

He's too young... [Note - he thinks initially this is his father.]

"I am Hifanat ab Tunukri," the eyeless man said breathlessly, "a Dionoratë of the tribe Indara-Kishauri... I bear a message from your father. He says, 'You walk the Shortest Path. Soon you will grasp the Thousandfold Thought.'"

[....]

"How did you find me?"

"We can see you. All of us." [....]

"Us?"

"All of us who serve him--the Possessors of the Third Sight."

So it might not be that Moenghus perfected the Third Sight. He may have actually originated it. There's no text evidence that I can recall that this is a native ability of Cish, and it would explain the timeline as well as Moe's leadership of his faction.

Think about it - we know only that at least some of the Cish have the Third Sight. Xinemus senses some in the Padirajah's siege camp (more in a moment), but we also see another Cish seeing with his asps in TTT, which sees to be something different.

About the Cish that Xin senses.... if there were Cish in the Padirajah's camp, why did they not participate in the battle?

[Sci-2]

Good find Wrath. If nothing else it's a good way to close a possible plot hole.

eta:

were there an unambiguous scene of damnation, then y'all'd be cooking with gas. if that scene shows up in volume VI, i'll change my title to masturbating orc, or some other dumbass bit from the novels.

So even in the end we've no way of knowing for sure who is saved and who is damned? I have to say I'm coming around to this point of view largely because I can't see a PoV within the text that can offer a definitive answer.

Heck, even travelers to the Outside couldn't give us any certainty.

Would the PoV of a soul suffice? But this seems like cop out on Bakker's part, because we could have gotten this PoV in Book 1.

[lokisnow]

Do we know that anything is going to change for people on Earwa?

Well Kellhus could either offer Salvation or he could end damnation. Jesus offered Salvation, but it would have been rather more useful and humane if he had instead ended damnation...

[Armitage]

Does anyone have a searchable version of every book?

The end of TTT doesn't have an entry for the Witness of Fane, but I wanted to search for little bits from it in the chapter intros.

Witness of Fane is under "kipfa'aifan":

kipfa'aifan -- "Witness of Fane" (Kianni) The holiest scripture of Fanimry, chronicling the life and revelations of the Prophet Fane from his blinding and exile into the Great Salt in 3703 to his death in 3742. See Fane.

Other mentions in the series:

... the ends of the earth shall be wracked by the howls of the wicked, and the idols shall be cast down and shattered, stone against stone. And the demons of the idolaters shall hold open their mouths, like starving lepers, for no man living will answer their outrageous hunger.

-- 16:4:22 THE WITNESS OF FANE

(TWP, ch.12, epigraph)

When, many centuries later, the Sareots were massacred by the Fanim in the fall of Shigek, it was rumoured that the Padirajah himself had entered the Library. From his vest, the legend went, he pulled a slender, leather-bound copy of the kipfa'aifan, the Witness of Fane, bent to the shape of his breast. Holding it high in the airy gloom, he declared, "Here lies all written truth. Here lies the one path for all souls. Burn this wicked place." At that instant, it was said, a single scroll spilled from the racks and came rolling to his booted feet. When the Padirajah opened it he found a detailed map of all Gedea, which he later used to crush the Nansur in a number of desperate battles.

(TWP, ch.12)

... for the sin of the idolater is not that he worships stone, but that he worships one stone over others.

-- 8:9:4 THE WITNESS OF FANE

(TWP, ch.20, epigraph)

She [Psatma Nannaferi] paused before the pavilion's small but sumptuous shrine. "You are one of Her children," she said without looking at the man. "She loves you despite the wickedness your captors have forced upon you." She drew a finger along the spine of the book nestled in crimson crushed velvet upon the small altar: the kipfa'aifan, the Witness of Fane. The leather cracked and pimpled at her touch.

"You give," she murmured, turning to fix the old man with her gaze. "He takes."

(WLW, ch.8)

[unJon]

Looking back at the quote with Hifanat, I am actually more convinced of my theory.

So it might not be that Moenghus perfected the Third Sight. He may have actually originated it. There's no text evidence that I can recall that this is a native ability of Cish, and it would explain the timeline as well as Moe's leadership of his faction.

Think about it - we know only that at least some of the Cish have the Third Sight. Xinemus senses some in the Padirajah's siege camp (more in a moment), but we also see another Cish seeing with his asps in TTT, which sees to be something different.

About the Cish that Xin senses.... if there were Cish in the Padirajah's camp, why did they not participate in the battle?

If Moe created, perfected or even just utilized the ability to see actual souls, then it defies credibility to think he didn't believe in damnation. If Wrath's theory is right it is more evidence that Kel made mistakes in his conversation with Moe. IIRC Moe even said something about how the Outside still follows the property of what comes before determining what comes after during that conversation. This is not the same as not believing in damnation as Kel may have took it (hearing what he wants to hear as world born men do).

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Does anyone have a searchable version of every book?

The end of TTT doesn't have an entry for the Witness of Fane, but I wanted to search for little bits from it in the chapter intros.

I've got the first three but not TJE and WLW. But Armitage handled it :)

[Armitage]

I've got the first three but not TJE and WLW. But Armitage handled it :)

I do have searchable versions of all five, compiled in a textbase program so I can look across all five at once. And let me tell you, after searching to support or falsify whatever crackpot theory I have at a given time I generally wind up more confused than before!

(Recent crackpot theory: Sarl=Titirga. Prior to that: Titirga=God. Hey, can someone ask RSB if the transitive property holds true in Ajencian logic?)

[unJon]

Oh because Cish not damned in Fanim faith? Very interesting. Hangs together.

[Sci-2]

If Moe created, perfected or even just utilized the ability to see actual souls, then it defies credibility to think he didn't believe in damnation.

Why? Cants of Compulsion allow you to control souls, yet the head of the Scarlet Spires thought damnation was a joke until Kellhus came down from the Circumfix.

Not to mention all sorcerers know of things like the Wathi dolls and dimensional vaults, which require portions of souls to work.