The Unholy Consult Previews 2: Murder Shae Wrote

[Rhom]

The Mandate he holds by their belief, the Swayali he holds by standing between them and a sexist society.

If he gave the other schools the Gnosis, why would they obey him? And even if they did commit some of their number to the Ordeal, it certainly wouldn't equal what they offered now in hopes of getting the Gnosis.

This is starting to ring a bell... I almost feel like I remember him using the Gnosis as a "carrot" of sorts. Doesn't he hint that if the other schools accompany him, he will give them the Gnosis?

[Sci-2]

This is starting to ring a bell... I almost feel like I remember him using the Gnosis as a "carrot" of sorts. Doesn't he hint that if the other schools accompany him, he will give them the Gnosis?

I think it is actually a straight up deal. They come, and when they return he gives them the Gnosis.

Now, I do think it is worth arguing whether there is some plot railroad here, as it is a bit difficult to imagine the Schools send[ing] their best and brightest to die in a wasteland. Though part of this likely stems from their fear of Kellhus who could probably find a way to assassinate School members who refused him....or heck, just have Maitha place an interdiction against them so they starve to death.

[Maithanet]

I think it is actually a straight up deal. They come, and when they return he gives them the Gnosis.

Now, I do think it is worth arguing whether there is some plot railroad here, as it is a bit difficult to imagine the Schools send[ing] their best and brightest to die in a wasteland. Though part of this likely stems from their fear of Kellhus who could probably find a way to assassinate School members who refused him....or heck, just have Maitha place an interdiction against them so they starve to death.

But why is that the deal? Does Kellhus have no way of gaining control over the other schools? He controls everything else, why is he so afraid of the duplicitous schools that he is unable to give them this powerful weapon for fear that they will turn on him? Hell, he could just force all the schools to become assimilated into the Mandate and touch the heart, then he won't have to worry about their resolve. And how could the schools really oppose him? The Scarlet Spires were shattered at Shimeh, and the remaining schools are hardly united. He has the Mandate and the entire three seas behind him, as well as his own powers of influence and magic. He could bring them to heel* or crush them with ease.

I originally had the typo of hell. He could do that as well.

[Shryke]

If the Gnosis gets out, the big advantage he has over any other army out there goes away.

Plus, can you even teach the Gnosis to someone who already knows another form of sorcery? It might have had to be new recruits only, in which case why not just bring those new recruits into schools already loyal to you.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I don't think Kellhus has any trouble controlling his Schools. But the Gnosis is still a wonderful carrot.

Edit - Actually, remembering the Vokalati, there is trouble with control in some instances. But he can use their perennial greed for the Gnosis to corral them.

Also, the Spires were never able to crack the Gnosis due to Seswatha protecting the inner heart of those Mandati captured and tortured. But do the Swayali also have that protection? I can't recall.

[Castel]

Also, the Spires were never able to crack the Gnosis due to Seswatha protecting the inner heart of those Mandati captured and tortured. But do the Swayali also have that protection? I can't recall.

Serwa does iirc. I assume the rest of them do too.

[Rhom]

If the Gnosis gets out, the big advantage he has over any other army out there goes away.

Plus, can you even teach the Gnosis to someone who already knows another form of sorcery? It might have had to be new recruits only, in which case why not just bring those new recruits into schools already loyal to you.

I would think that you could teach someone...

Ah hell, I've sat here for five minutes thinking up a good analogy and none of them are good enough to get my point across. Teaching a new language isn't quite right obviously, but you get the idea. They have to basically relearn everything they've ever known.

[Armitage]

One thing that actually bothered me when I started TJE was that Kellhus hadn't given the gnosis to the other Anagogic schools.

It took two years for Achamian just to learn the language in which Gnostic magic is performed (Gilcûnya?). And he was still a child at the time. All the schools, as far as we know, only train children. The only person we've seen learn sorcery as an adult is Kellhus himself.

What Kellhus accomplished may just not be possible for normal humans.

[Maithanet]

It took two years for Achamian just to learn the language in which Gnostic magic is performed (Gilcûnya?). And he was still a child at the time. All the schools, as far as we know, only train children. The only person we've seen learn sorcery as an adult is Kellhus himself.

What Kellhus accomplished may just not be possible for normal humans.

It seems unlikely that all initiated sorcerers are unable to learn another language given that Mimara was making some progress with her intermittent lessons in just a few months in TJE. One would have to assume that learning a second magical language would be easier than learning your first as an adult. And even if it were impossible for adults to learn, all intiates could have been switched to learning the Gnosis; they had 20 years to do it. Achamian is a talented, but by no means exceptional sorcerer, and he wasn't really doing anything like training to improve his magical skills in the trilogy, so one must assume that his training was essentially complete. He was in his 30s in the trilogy. Therefore any boys under 15 that the anagogic schools were teaching had plenty of time to learn the Gnosis.

[Castel]

Intermittent lessons yielding middling progress. And as she's making that progress the Mandate Schoolman teaching her notes that she's going to be disappointed because the Schools only train children for a reason.

Does anyone know when the Schools stop recruiting? Because even fifteen might be too old. I can't remember how the Anagogic Schools teach magic, if they don't use the same language as the Gnosis (which seems highly likely given the whole "sorcery of the ancient north" thing) then they might already have been set down a particular path conceptually and pulling them off it would be difficult. But then, Bakker-magic eludes me because I'm delaying the re-read of PoN.

As for anyone younger, it'd make sense that Kellhus would take all the new recruits and funnel them towards the Mandate and Swayali but we haven't had any indication that their numbers are larger than the other schools. The Compact especially should be pretty big given that it has no competition.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

They use a different but similar language as the gnosis. Akka says it's a debased form of Gilcunya, though this doesn't make any sense, really, since IIRC the Tribes had Anagogic sorcerers prior to entering Earwa.

Along those lines, sort of... in TJE and WLW we see Akka living more and more of Seswatha's life, where he is a close companion to the High King. Not just an advisor, a friend. But isn't the proscription against sorcerers found in the Tusk? If so, shouldn't the ancient Norsirai have the same attitude towards sorcerers that the contemporary Three Seas do?

[Shryke]

It seems unlikely that all initiated sorcerers are unable to learn another language given that Mimara was making some progress with her intermittent lessons in just a few months in TJE. One would have to assume that learning a second magical language would be easier than learning your first as an adult. And even if it were impossible for adults to learn, all intiates could have been switched to learning the Gnosis; they had 20 years to do it. Achamian is a talented, but by no means exceptional sorcerer, and he wasn't really doing anything like training to improve his magical skills in the trilogy, so one must assume that his training was essentially complete. He was in his 30s in the trilogy. Therefore any boys under 15 that the anagogic schools were teaching had plenty of time to learn the Gnosis.

But it's not a question of whether you can learn sorcery at a later age, it's can you learn ANOTHER form of sorcery. Can you fix the meanings as precisely using a different system.

[Rhom]

Have we ever specifically heard how the other schools make their magic? Is it just an uttered strand? What makes the gnosis special was the unutterable wasn't it?

Because that's what I was getting at earlier. If other schools are not using the unutterable strands, then it wouldn't be so simple as just learning a new language, it's an entirely different concept.

[Shryke]

Have we ever specifically heard how the other schools make their magic? Is it just an uttered strand? What makes the gnosis special was the unutterable wasn't it?

Because that's what I was getting at earlier. If other schools are not using the unutterable strands, then it wouldn't be so simple as just learning a new language, it's an entirely different concept.

AFAIK they all do it the same. It's something about the language and the arguments used that make it more/less effective.

[Sci-2]

ETA: The way I read it was that all sorcery has inutterals, but the inutterals of the Gnosis differ from those of the Anagogic Schools.

Have we ever specifically heard how the other schools make their magic? Is it just an uttered strand? What makes the gnosis special was the unutterable wasn't it?

Because that's what I was getting at earlier. If other schools are not using the unutterable strands, then it wouldn't be so simple as just learning a new language, it's an entirely different concept.

Wouldn't being familiar with philosophy allow you to better grasp a wholly different school if some of the foundational underpinnings were the same?

I see some Anagogic sorcerers impeded by their former understanding of magic, but still others if not the majority should be able to grok the fundamentals of the Gnosis.

[lokisnow]

One spell is "as hot as dragon fire" and the other spell "raise temperature to 5000 in area described by [calculus formula]"

[karaddin]

Achamian is a talented, but by no means exceptional sorcerer

Is that actually the case though? The only assessment we have of Akka's ability is his own, and he's guilty of often having a lower opinion of himself than may be warranted. If we purely look at what we see him do, he's wiped the floor with the scarlet spires and the saik - now we lack any other examples of gnosis vs anagogis to judge how much of this is just the difference between the two and how much of it is Akka. Additionally we see him in action older in Cil'Aujas and while he's not quite as effective as Cleric a decent amount of that seems to be his lack of martial/physical prowess rather than weakness in the gnosis. Finally we have his fight against Cleric which we wins, granted he doesn't win through overpowering but through good assessment of the situation.

I don't think there is enough there to judge definitively either way, but I think there is enough textual evidence that it's possible Akka underrates himself, and would have been higher ranked in the mandate except for being politically shit and young.

[Castel]

If we purely look at what we see him do, he's wiped the floor with the scarlet spires and the saik - now we lack any other examples of gnosis vs anagogis to judge how much of this is just the difference between the two and how much of it is Akka.

Well, Eli did thiink that one of the reasons the school wanted the Gnosis was because it allowed even lowly spies like Akka to cow Grandmasters such as himself. They never actually fought and I don't recall him ever seeing Achamian fight, but the threat was enough to get a Grandmaster to back down so...yeah, probably the Gnosis. If the highest ranking member of an Anagogic School is afraid to tangle with a spy because he was a Gnostic sorcerer there is clearly a bad imbalance.

[Shryke]

I'm pretty sure at some point it's mentioned that Akka is also fairly powerful as a Mandati.

[karaddin]

Well, Eli did thiink that one of the reasons the school wanted the Gnosis was because it allowed even lowly spies like Akka to cow Grandmasters such as himself. They never actually fought and I don't recall him ever seeing Achamian fight, but the threat was enough to get a Grandmaster to back down so...yeah, probably the Gnosis. If the highest ranking member of an Anagogic School is afraid to tangle with a spy because he was a Gnostic sorcerer there is clearly a bad imbalance.

This has the same problem as Akka's own assessment of his abilities though, Eli may think he's weak (as far as gnostic schoolmen go) because he's a mere spy, it's self reinforcing. Another victim of the unreliable points of view!