The Unholy Consult Previews 2: Murder Shae Wrote

[Sci-2]

I think salvation will be contingent on something other than picking the right religion.

[Sci-2]

My thinking is that Meppa originally worked for Big Moe, and now works for Kellhus. He assassinates Fayanal at the right moment.

His importance to the novel is not to provide a grand metaphysical shift, or even revelation. It's to serve as an instrument of Kellhus's will.

As to whole nations being damned, I'm guessing certain faiths may correlate with the "right way to believe". So the technique/effort is more important than the particular trappings of faith.

It's just hard for me to think Bakker hinges the climax of six books on the magical belief lottery he disparages.

[Castel]

There is no definite benefit to Inrilatas. But there isn't any advantage to killing him. Would you trust a man who murders his son to [be] the avatar of a supposedly compassionate God?

You think that people would know? He'd probably use some Vulcan nerve pinch or something. The loss of prestige might be something. We don't know how many people know about Esmenet's previous miscarriages.

Inrilatas might have been saved by the nature of his deformity. He had to work into it, so he couldn't be killed off as a child because there was always the possibility that he'd be useful.

I wonder, is there a precedent for messiahs or even holy men in Earwa having babies born with varying degrees of mental/physical issues?

Seems like Bakker overestimates the rationalization of the religious here?

Kellhus provides a perfectly good reason does he not? When the people we believe in do magic they are prophets and are holy, when those we don't do the same they are witches and damned. It's no different. Once you get people to believe they'll move along the tracks you want because otherwise they'd be forced to repudiate everything they hold dear.

Well, I'm not saying that it proves that Fane is right about The God. But I'm just saying that we know he discovered something, and we don't know if Sejenus did anything other than get himself labeled a prophet. I suspect that Fane's magic discovery could hint at something larger because it was accidental, was his own personal salvation, and was more revelatory in nature than the long study that led to the other forms of magic.

Sejenus came after the Tusk right? Because there was some speculation that things in the Tusk: like the Non-men being false was inserted by Inchoroi. IIRC he simply re-interpreted it but he might be working off bad info.

hmm, what was the event that caused Esmenet to go to the mattresses? Inrilatas' death at the hands of a Kellhus stand-in

Did it break Kellhus' power over Esmenet Inrilatas dying might make her upset for a while, but she knew Sammi much better and loved him as much as she loved anyone and she kept calm and carried on. Her grief was managed.

[sologdin]

I thought I recalled Bakker saying something like "whole nations" in a discussion about this which suggested to me that it could be something like which civilizations are doing it right in the theology/faith game.

so are we awed or annoyed when it turns out inchies are right?

[Sci-2]

I was thinking that the Psukhe is the exclusive property of the Cishaurim

Well, Titirga seemed to partially grasp the recollection of the God.

So perhaps that means the the Psukhe does come w/ some instruction to some degree but the passion part is a big part of how powerful the execution is? So maybe Moenghus can be taught by the Cish but just can't muster enough energy to take it as far as they can?

Big Moe says he has strength in the parts of the Psukhe that don't demand passion. [i think he is one of several Cish who are not strong in Water bearing.] Though it is unclear if there were skinspies who were Cish since as I recall TTT specifically mentions the infiltration of the Cishaurim[.]

I'm presuming that there the skinspies were slaves or possibly Cish just as weak in the Water as Big Moe?

eta: To clarify, if skin spies can masquerade as Cish, it must mean there are some human Cish who cannot work magic or are so weak that they are never called upon to do magic. As such, it wouldn't be that odd for Big Moe to be so weak.

Also, in Big Moe's own words:

"I have some facility for those elements of the Psukhe that require more subtlety than power.

Scrying, Calling, Translating ... Even still, my summons to you nearly broke me. Ishuäl lies across

the world."

[Fredward]

Fred, welcome to this thread. Please forgive us for just referring you to hundreds of previous threads.

The clearest part is when he talks directly to the God at the end of TTT, Chapter XIV.

“What was I to do. They [world-born men] attend only to what lies before there eyes. […]”

[…]

“What was I to do? Tell them the truth?”

Clearly Kellhus cannot tell them the truth. The future of the world depends on it. He must lie and manipulate. But he is God’s instrument. As he tells Acka, who else would the God have chosen for His vessel?

So I think Kellhus is exactly what he says he is. He’ll save the world. But he’s not a nice guy. (Why ever would we think that the Saviour would be nice?)

It's cool, you guys have already cleared up a lot for me. I wanna see if I got this. Bakker is subverting what is probably the most omnipresent trope in fiction namely that, deep down, everyone likes the hero and he does this because he knows that the readers will always look for some reason to think Kellhus is a decent human being, precisely because the trope is so well established. So what's happening is that even though the reader is supposed to know that Kellhus is a manipulative ass they sort of manipulate themselves into buying his whole fake facade which almost every reader facepalms over when everyone in the books do it.

Bakker is kind of an awesome troll.

[sologdin]

well summarized. readers generally like the uberdouche, even when uberdouche commits horrible crimes. this goes back to the flood in genesis.

[Sheep the Evicted]

Here's a random thought:

Inri Sejenus claimed to be a prophet, but do we know that he ever actually experienced any true revelation, or could he have just been a guy who claimed so?

Do we not know that Fane actually received some kind of revelation in the discovery of Water?

That is to suggest, can we not, given what we have from the text, believe that one of these prophets almost certainly had some kind of literal revelation while the other could just as easily be some charismatic huckster as be some kind of true prophet?

Weren't we told the mark of a Prophet is their ability to heal ? And Kellhus had to come up with a bullshit excuse for why he can't ? Entirely possible that the ability to heal is a gift from one of the hundred gods as opposed to the God but i doubt any of them would have gifted Fane who denies their existence. This is one of the reasons i think Kellhus is false, and has fooled even himself into believeing he's a prophet.

[Sci-2]

There's no proof anyone has ever healed...makes me think R&D D&D campaigns at the Bakker household must have been hard as hell. :-)

[lokisnow]

As to whole nations being damned, I'm guessing certain faiths may correlate with the "right way to believe". So the technique/effort is more important than the particular trappings of faith.

So Bakker is going to do the same thing as C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle? Seems a copout to take a 20th century fuzzy/cuddly re-interpretation of ancient religion absolutes just so we don't feel bad for 'innocents' being damned?

Religion actually damning entire peoples for getting it wrong--as most of the religious texts actually do, which we moderns overlook because it makes us uncomfortable--makes a much more impactful impression on the reader rather than perpetuating the Lewis approach that religion isn't that bad and salvation will come to the nice folks, no matter if they're Islamic or Christian or Jew.

If the reason for not damning whole nations--or at least not the "good" people of said nations--is that it isn't fair, then I'd say that's a big and important point. Religion isn't fair, as written.

[Sci-2]

So Bakker is going to do the same thing as C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle? Seems a copout to take a 20th century fuzzy/cuddly re-interpretation of ancient religion absolutes just so we don't feel bad for 'innocents' being damned?

You're assuming the "right way" means being a moral person. It might simply mean identification with the God of Gods over any lesser spirits. So the Fanim and possibly many Inrithi are saved, but Zeum and those overly attached to the various lesser gods - cults but also all those who overly identify with gods of war/mischief/sex - are damned.

It might also be that what really matters is having a mental state [and possibly also experiential memories] desirable to those entities that offer comparably better afterlives. So a bloodthirsty soldier who delights in rape can be saved if the god of war takes notice, while a kind hearted healer has no personality trait of interest to the gods and thus is left for the Ciphrang.

[lokisnow]

It might also be that what really matters is having a mental state [and possibly also experiential memories] desirable to those entities that offer comparably better afterlives. So a bloodthirsty soldier who delights in rape can be saved if the god of war takes notice, while a kind hearted healer has no personality trait of interest to the gods and thus is left for the Ciphrang.

That's pretty much exactly the viewpoint Lewis outlines in Last Battle.

I and [Tash] are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him

I take to me the services which thou hast done to Tash [the false God]... if any man swear by him and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me [Aslan] that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him."

“Beloved," said the Glorious One, "unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.”

I think that every prayer which is sincerely made even to a false god, or to a very imperfectly conceived true God, is accepted by the true God and that Christ saves many who do not think they know him. For He is (dimly) present in the good side of the inferior teachers they follow. In the parable of the Sheep and Goats those who are saved do not seem to know that they have served Christ.

And that Lewis outlines that point because he cannot accept that a God of "love" was being truthful when he said he would be mean and damn everyone. Lewis would prefer to believe that his god of love was lying to him when he said he wasn't going to be loving. He wants to believe that God has said he will be nicer.

I'm saying even the people you're suggesting will not be saved in Bakkerverse. Either you have things exactly perfectly or you suffer the damnation of your sin(s) you've accrued in your life.

[Sci-2]

I'm saying even the people you're suggesting will not be saved in Bakkerverse. Either you have things exactly perfectly or you suffer the damnation of your sin(s) you've accrued in your life.

Can you elaborate on "things exactly perfectly"?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Re: Moe and Cish and the Water -

Why are you all assuming that Moe was telling Kellhus the truth about his strength?

Consider:

1. Although the Saik and Spires have no idea how the Psukhe works, they are confident that it is weaker than the Anagogis and are also aware of specific "spells" that it uses (seen by the Spires' examination of the field of Mengedda). Moe mentions several more. So for there to be recognizable spells, there must be formal instruction, not simply an outpouring of passion.

2. The Saik consider Moe to be the strongest of all the Cish, apparently at the level of Seökti; an Incandatus.

3. The Psukhe being passion-based comes from a conversation Kellhus has with Akka. While there's no obvious need for him to lie, that doesn't mean he's telling the strict truth, and there also remains the possibility that he is simply incorrect. After all, he has had very limited interaction with any Cish at this point and no direct experience of the Psukhe, IIRC.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Yeah I mean there's definitely an argument either way. To me the question of Moe's strength isn't really important, since he died without using the Psukhe for anything other than Calling Kellhus (on screen anyway).

On another topic, I am about 2/3 through my reread of TWP, and something has been bothering me: why can't Akka see the Few?

I will look up the quotes later, but basically he doesn't realize Maithanet is of the Few until Maithanet recognizes him, and at one point he is relieved that he won't be tempted to share the Gnosis with Kellhus because he "knows" Kell isn't of the Few. He has to use his Wathi Doll to be determine it.

[Sci-2]

There could have just spread the rumor of a Cish who shined in the 3rd sight and discussed Fane's message like none other, and that would just lead people to assume he was one of the greatest Water bearers. It sounded like the Cish themselves were surprised when Moe (allegedly) wasn't so strong with it.

And if his reputation has already been built up when he is an initiate, there's no reason for the Cish to gainsay it. After all, better an assassin kill Big Moe than any true Primary. I will say that it TTT could have been clearer on how the Saik got things so wrong.

Also, just to note, the power level of the Psukhe is something that varies with point of view. Proyas actually mentions it being stronger than the Anagnosis in WLW.

[lokisnow]

I sometimes wonder if Moe really thought Kell would join him, that the Cish would easily crush the anagnostic schools, that Conphas would show up and pin the rest of the holy war in between his army and the walls of Shimeh. :-p Thus the inrithi menace would be wiped out and the Cishaurim could begin preparations for their great ordeal to lay seige to Golgotteranth.

[Castel]

nvm, need to reread.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Trisk - You must be right, but it's still weird for me. The quote implies a level of certainty in Akka that is unusual for such a skeptical man. What I mean is, while Akka has the weight of statistics on his side - that is, it's a very solid assumption that any given person is not of the Few - he is expressly considering Kellhus and the Gnosis and dismisses completely any possibility of Kellhus being of the Few. Here are the quotes:

[Akka is speaking to Esmi of teaching Kellhus]

"Just the exoterics' date='" he said with a shrug, "the world. Not the esoterics. [b']He's not one of the Few..." Almost as an afterthought, he added, "Thank the God."

[....]

"Because of his intellect, Esmi! You've no idea! I've never met such a subtle soul, neither in life nor in book ... Not even Ajencis, Esmi! Ajencis! If Kellhus possessed the ability to work sorcery, he'd be ... he'd be ..." [....] "Another Seswatha ... More than Seswatha...

Soon' date=' Achamian realized from time to time, he would have nothing left to give Kellhus--save the Gnosis.

Which he could not give, of course. But he found it hard to resist wondering what Kellhus with his godlike intellect would make of it. [b']Thankfully, the Gnosis was a language for which the Prince possessed no tongue.

You see what I mean? It's strange for him to dismiss the possibility out of hand while actually wondering what he could do with it, even saying he'd be another Seswatha! If methods such as with the Wathi Doll were always required, you'd think he would have some curiosity.

And that's another thing, if the Few are not visible without the Mark (which makes sense and must be the case given the evidence), how are children with the gift found in the first place?

[Castel]

I sometimes wonder if Moe really thought Kell would join him, that the Cish would easily crush the anagnostic schools, that Conphas would show up and pin the rest of the holy war in between his army and the walls of Shimeh. :-p Thus the inrithi menace would be wiped out and the Cishaurim could begin preparations for their great ordeal to lay seige to Golgotteranth.

Why? I thought the plan was always to use the Inrithi? The Fanim are just one group. IT'd be much better to seize the rest of the continent.