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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIX


Milady of York

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Yes, I could see a case where the Sansan shippers are up in arms :) but I doubt Ran would reference this as something particularly controversial.

Not sure what you mean. This is the quote:

As with all interviews, sometimes bits get cut to tighten it up... I'm pretty sure what I said was that I thought the chapter might be controversial in some quarters of the fandom. I guess that means it could well be controversial. But, who knows, my assessment might be wrong.

As far as I can tell, Ran doesn't have a problem with the Sansa chapter in question or personally find it controversial but rather anticipates that "some quarters of the fandom" might do so, which means that it could "very well be" controversial. Shippers certainly qualify as "some quarters of the fandom." So Ran would reference this chapter as controversial in reference to the anticipated reaction of some part of fandom, as opposed to a personal reaction to the chapter. All I'm saying is that "some quarters" could reference shippers. Or not, of course.

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As far as I can tell, Ran doesn't have a problem with the Sansa chapter in question or personally find it controversial but rather anticipates that "some quarters of the fandom" might do so, which means that it could "very well be" controversial. Shippers certainly qualify as "some quarters of the fandom." So Ran would reference this chapter as controversial in reference to the anticipated reaction of some part of fandom, as opposed to a personal reaction to the chapter. All I'm saying is that "some quarters" could reference shippers. Or not, of course.

I guess I'd have to say it's just a hunch then at this point for a variety of reasons. The other thing that would spark controversy would be Tyrion of course, but I can't see him turning up in the Vale for a while.

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One possibility could be the Mad Mouse, e.g. trying to kidnap Sansa and take her to King's Landing. Alternately he could reveal who she is to, say, Bronze Yohn Royce, with a view to getting a cut of the reward from Cersei---not that there is any chance that Lord Royce would actually turn Robb's sister over to the Lannisters. (At least it seems unlikely that he would do so.)

Well, maybe this is not controversial in the right sort of way.....

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I guess I'd have to say it's just a hunch then at this point for a variety of reasons.

Fair enough. I have a feeling "some quarters of the fandom" refers to Sansa fans, which includes shippers of various Sansa-related ships but obviously includes non-shippers as well. I think it refers to Sansa fans since they're the ones who are most invested in Sansa's chapters and would thus be likely to have a strong reaction (either positive or negative) to whatever happens in her chapters. If Ran anticipates that some fans might have a problem with what goes on in a Sansa chapter, it's a pretty good bet that it's someone who likes her and who's fairly invested in what happens to her (i.e. a Sansa fan). We'll see, I guess.

It could of course be something like "Sansa does something which is controversial because certain fans swore up and down that she'd never be able to do it" in a good sense: Sansa warging, Sansa outfoxing Littlefinger, etc. etc.

The other thing that would spark controversy would be Tyrion of course, but I can't see him turning up in the Vale for a while.

Yeah, not at the rate he's going. On the other hand, just to throw it out there, TWOW is a big book, and if GRRM writes all his chapters for a character at once, this controversial Sansa chapter could be from much later in the book, and I would expect Tyrion to make it back to Westeros--assuming he makes it back--by the end of TWOW, so you never know. With that said, there are very few mentions of Tyrion in Sansa's POVs post-KL, and virtually none post-ASOS, so I doubt this involves Tyrion.

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Fair enough. I have a feeling "some quarters of the fandom" refers to Sansa fans, which includes shippers of various Sansa-related ships but obviously includes non-shippers as well. I think it refers to Sansa fans since they're the ones who are most invested in Sansa's chapters and would thus be likely to have a strong reaction (either positive or negative) to whatever happens in her chapters. If Ran anticipates that some fans might be upset by a Sansa chapter, it's a pretty good bet that it's someone who's fairly invested in what happens to her (i.e. a Sansa fan). We'll see, I guess.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. Quarters of the fandom would only matter if these people had strong opinions about Sansa. People with really strong opinions about Sansa tend to be her fans, unlike Daenerys for example (at least on this board).

Yeah, not at the rate he's going. On the other hand, just to throw it out there, TWOW is a big book, and if GRRM writes all his chapters for a character at once, this controversial Sansa chapter could be from much later in the book, and I would expect Tyrion to make it back to Westeros--assuming he makes it back--by the end of TWOW, so you never know. With that said, there are very few mentions of Tyrion in Sansa's POVs post-KL, and virtually none post-ASOS, so I doubt this involves Tyrion.

I think it could very well be a later chapter, which then opens all this up to even more possibilities. But even though there are few mentions of Tyrion, I don't see that preventing GRRM from implementing a twist, although I would agree it's unlikely.

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I guess I'd have to say it's just a hunch then at this point for a variety of reasons. The other thing that would spark controversy would be Tyrion of course, but I can't see him turning up in the Vale for a while.

I see how this would be an interesting plot development, but I don't think I see the controversy. But I must admit I was secretly rooting for Sansa's and Tyrion's marriage to work, so maybe that's why I don't see that as being controversial ;).

Edit: For clarity - I know that it could never have worked the way it was set up and with the background both characters had. But in a vacuum I thought they would've made an excellent (political) match and possibly a happy one.

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I see how this would be an interesting plot development, but I don't think I see the controversy. But I must admit I was secretly rooting for Sansa's and Tyrion's marriage to work, so maybe that's why I don't see that as being controversial ;).

Edit: For clarity - I know that it could never have worked the way it was set up and with the background both characters had. But in a vacuum I thought they would've made an excellent (political) match and possibly a happy one.

Well I think as far as this forum goes, if you want a guaranteed heated thread with lots of conflicting views, just look to the ones on "Mrs. Lannister" :) I don't think Sansa/Tyrion could have worked in a vaccum either since there's some fundamental incompatibility issues there, outside of the whole Stark/Lannister problems.

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Probably. It just that I like both characters a lot and want them to be happy! So why not together...

But all that aside: the hint about the "controversial Sansa chapter" is a painful reminder on how long we still have to wait for tWoW. Though I understand the wait. The books are huge and the amazing amount of thought and detail going into each storyline explains (and justifies) why it takes so long.

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They'd find it surprising, but not controversial :)

I think you're right here. Controversial in certain parts of the fandom may imply something fairly specific. Killing SR or any other "grand event" would likely cause cause a big eruption in all quarters. Sigh... just more intrigue that we can't solve.

I have the impression that SR is not overly popular among readers. I think that a lot of people would give her a pass for it (Let's face it, nobody cared about Marillion).

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I have the impression that SR is not overly popular among readers. I think that a lot of people would give her a pass for it (Let's face it, nobody cared about Marillion).

Marillion was a thug and a rapist. SR might not be popular, but he's still an innocent, and killing/attempting to kill children in the series has long been posited as a kind of moral event horizon. I certainly wouldn't be able to credit Sansa with being capable of such, no matter how annoying SR is or how much she feels his death is inevitable.

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I have the impression that SR is not overly popular among readers. I think that a lot of people would give her a pass for it (Let's face it, nobody cared about Marillion).

It's still a little boy. Yes, he is whiny, spoilt, irritating and weird, which is probably correlated to his slightly -uhm- unusual upbringing. But he is a little boy.

Marillion was an arrogant, egotistical rapist well past the age you can make your own decisions. And IIRC Sansa was not directly responsable for his death.

Given that people don't like Sansa that much, I think she won't be getting a 'free pass'.

People have a hard time giving Tyrion (much loved character) a free pass for Tywin/Shae, even though they sort of "had it coming". While Sweetrobin might not be popular, he does not "have it coming" I think. I think his story is rather sad.

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Adding my crackpot into the stew...

What about Myranda Royce blackmailing her for some reason, threatening to out her?

Sansa would then be sort of justified to arrange an "accident" for her, it would be in self defence for some fans but murder for others.

It would fit the characterization as controversial...

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LF convincing her that it was her fault her father died by going to Cersei and using her guilt to go along with his plans.

Her killing the Mad Mouse because he finds out who she is.

The hairnet, the mad mouse, the tapestries and HtH all have to play some role in the next book.

Also there is meant to be a new plot line. SR being poisoned is one that has already been set-up. The question is if the controversy is to do with an existing plot line or the new one.

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Re-reading Sansa’s POVs recently, I came across a curious coincidence in the description of two characters that could be of interest for the thread.

In ASOS Sansa VII, the little bird describes Marillion’s looks like this:

Marillion was comely, there was no denying it; boyish and slender, with smooth skin, sandy hair, a charming smile.

… which is reminiscent of the description Petyr Baelish gave of a certain someone in AFFC Alayne II:

Harry can be a beguiling one, no doubt. Soft sandy hair, deep blue eyes, and dimples when he smiles.”

Sounds familiar? Littlefinger’s speaking of Harrold Hardyng, the one to whom he pretends to marry Sansa. Taking into account what she already knew about him through Randa Royce, and then this interesting coincidence with a man who tried to rape her, it doesn’t seem likely she’d have a favourable attitude toward this young man…

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Re-reading Sansa’s POVs recently, I came across a curious coincidence in the description of two characters that could be of interest for the thread.

In ASOS Sansa VII, the little bird describes Marillion’s looks like this:

… which is reminiscent of the description Petyr Baelish gave of a certain someone in AFFC Alayne II:

Sounds familiar? Littlefinger’s speaking of Harrold Hardyng, the one to whom he pretends to marry Sansa. Taking into account what she already knew about him through Randa Royce, and then this interesting coincidence with a man who tried to rape her, it doesn’t seems likely she’d have a favourable attitude toward this young man…

Good catch about the similarities in description between Marillion and HtH. Also, goiing back to your recent essay, it would show how even though Sansa thought Marillion was handsome, she had no interest in him romantically speaking because she could see that he was a sleaze. I also always thought that HtH is described very similarly to Loras whom LF would know Sansa had a crush on. He's using old information of what Sansa used to like to try and coerce her into the HtH marriage and he has no idea that Sansa is not into that kind of guy anymore.
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Nice catch Milady :) Coming on the heels of your essay about Sansa's preferences, it's another potential hint that this proposed match is not going to run smoothly. I wonder if HTH will be used in a similar fashion as Marillion was then: not as a serious love interest for Sansa, but someone who serves to enable her development in myriad ways. And it was Lothor Brune who rescued her from Marillion, the man she thinks for a moment is Sandor. This match may only serve to reinforce that more powerful attraction.

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The fact that Marillion and Harry the Heir are described in very similar terms might also be a hint that Harry the Heir will be as skeezy as Marillion, although granted, we already have other reasons to think Harry the Heir might not be great husband material. (Also, generally speaking, in the world of ASOIAF handsome, charming dudes tend to be worthless at best, scumbags at worst.)

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The fact that Marillion and Harry the Heir are described in very similar terms might also be a hint that Harry the Heir will be as skeezy as Marillion, although granted, we already have other reasons to think Harry the Heir might not be great husband material. (Also, generally speaking, in the world of ASOIAF handsome, charming dudes tend to be worthless at best, scumbags at worst.)

It's been one of our central speculations in this thread that LF has no intention of going through with the marriage to HtH, and has only proposed this to Sansa as a way to placate her for the moment. I wonder if we won't be seeing Harry move quite quickly from merely being a worthless charmer to a real scumbag under LF's watch at the Gates of the Moon.

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