From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIX

[brashcandy]

Brashcandy, I read your Angela Carter essay. Love it!! Lysa + sexual nirvana in the same sentence made me :ack: , but everything else had me nose-to-screen. People say that Sansa has no agency but I really disagree. She's not in a fairytale so obviously she can't start tearing people's clothes off (well...). She takes her strength more subtly and internally, but it's there, and it's growing. I also like that your Tyrion example highlighted another one of Sansa's strengths--she can really "get" people. She's barely ever spoken with Tyrion but she's able to read him point blank, even though she's scared.

Ooooh, Carter's Bluebeard story is one of my favorites of hers. Can't wait to read a Littlefinger essay.

Really glad you liked it PF :) Yeah, I think the subtlety is what a lot of people miss in Sansa's arc, and it's the reason why any upcoming story line for her in TWOW may seemingly be controversial, but I have a feeling it will all align with that careful development we've shown Martin plotting in these threads.

Someone posted this quote in the controversy thread and it's from the last chapter Newstar is referring to:

Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

It doesn't sound like she's faking anything.

Well no she isn't, but what does it prove? That she would be willing to go along with SR's murder, or that she's accepted everything LF tells her as the gospel? You might be able to make such a claim if we didn't have compelling evidence to the contrary, but indeed we do. Yes, like it or not, at this point in time, Alayne did have larger concerns. She's trying to avoid being sent back to KL and wants to have Sweetrobin be presentable on the way down the Mountain so as to not call LF's guardianship of the boy into question. But this idea that she's becoming a thrall of LF's isn't borne out in the very same chapter where we find the quote, and neither do we see her as ultimately insensitive to SR's needs as many people seem to interpret from that statement. It is only at the very end of the chapter that Sansa gets a good idea of what LF may ultimately be planning, and that's why Martin cuts the chapter at the moment with only LF's words, and that's why he's keeping the Vale storyline under such tight wraps.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Well no she isn't, but what does it prove? That she would be willing to go along with SR's murder, or that she's accepted everything LF tells her as the gospel? You might be able to make such a claim if we didn't have compelling evidence to the contrary, but indeed we do. Yes, like it or not, at this point in time, Alayne did have larger concerns. She's trying to avoid being sent back to KL and wants to have Sweetrobin be presentable on the way down the Mountain so as to not call LF's guardianship of the boy into question. But this idea that she's becoming a thrall of LF's

Sensationalist arguments and theories only serve to undermine the integrity of Sansa's story and are not substantively supported by the text.

I agree that Alayne has larger concerns and I really like that. Littlefinger also has many large concerns to focus on. However the quote included doesn't say "I have larger concerns and so does Father". Martin puts them together in Alayne's thoughts and no that doesn't mean anything about becoming a thrall or accepting everything LF says as gospel. Where is that stated in my comment? It does show alignment and commonality on the part of Alayne with her father. For someone who seeks out textual evidence so often, it is interesting to see when it is ignored.

[Newstar]

I know we're not to mention the hbo show unless it's relevant, and I'm hoping this might count. I think Newstar is on the money here and perhaps this is the nod to the dragonfly motif in Sansa's costuming?

Duncan the Small marrying a commoner for love, which echoed Sandor and Sansa

A quick rundown of dragonflies in ASOIAF: the Prince of Dragonflies, Duncan the Small, married a commoner, Jenny of Oldstones and gave up his crown to do so (with Westeros "paying the price in corpses") and Littlefinger and Catelyn played as children pretending to be the Prince of Dragonflies and Jenny of Oldstones. I thought there was a comment by one of the characters in the Dunk and Egg books about how dragonflies were peaceful creatures, nothing like dragons at all. I'm not sure how any of this relates to Sansa, except maybe the link with Littlefinger.

The dragonfly motif does seem to be Sansa's "thing" in the TV show, though. She's been wearing that dragonfly necklace since Season 1. It's very strange for a character to have one single costume motif in the show that has nothing to do with his/her house affiliation. Cersei's had a few non-Lannister motifs--flowers, birds, etc. etc.--but she'd had plenty of lions. Sansa has had dragonfly motifs since Season 1: in addition to her necklace, she's had dragonflies embroidered onto her gowns. Even in Season 3, she's wearing these little golden pins which are cleverly shaped to look like dragonflies. I'm not really sure why. Maybe it will be explained later on. Either Michele Clapton (costume goddess for the show) just really likes dragonflies, or there's something else going on, there.

In terms of symbolism, dragonflies don't live very long, either. So there's that. I doubt Michele Clapton is spoiling the books for us through ingenious costume hints, LOL.

I think the poster thought with my note of the oddly specific Aegon/Sansa parallels that I thought the two would be "paired" in some other sense or married off. It's possible, I guess, but it doesn't seem very likely. It's just as well, because if Sansa is paired with Aegon, she's likely going to get taken down with him.

[Pod The Impaler]

You mean LF continuing to impose himself on Sansa when she tries to draw clear boundaries? If the end of the chapter doesn't rule it out, it certainly doesn't support anything either. I confess to being at a loss to see how Martin could credibly introduce this development.

Rather than re-type it all, I will just revisit what I had put out there before. (I had stated 6 general possibilities for Sansa's future, roughly from worst case to best case scenarios):

I - The Caged Bird: We hope for Sansa to become more than what she has been, a girl with inner purpose and clear agency. However, maybe in the end, she just doesn't have it in her. She will never be more than a captive, her fate never really in her hands. She will not be a player, just a pawn. She simply may not have the cunning or the will to break free of her situation and be a true daughter of Winterfell. Maybe she will survive, but always live in grief and fear, singing empty songs devoid of meaning. Perhaps she will find a way to disappear into obscurity, hiding until the end of her days. Perhaps she will finally be bedded, and not by anyone she desires. Or perhaps she will remain chaste and lonely, until all possibility of achieving love and marriage are gone. This is the saddest or most disappointing possibility - a Red Wedding of the soul. In the end, we find out that Lady's death actually predicted perfectly what Sansa would be. She lost her wolf, and with that, she lost her future.

II - Lady Baelish: This is the best-case scenario for Petyr Baelish, his goal of converting her to his lady love is achieved. In the end, Sansa chooses him, maybe for love, maybe for pragmatism. They get married, they have babies. They both are players on the same team, and she acts as his willing accomplice. The House of Baelish is their legacy, built together into a new great house. How horrible or pleasant this is depends on one's subjective judgement, and maybe on a few developments we have not seen yet. Perhaps she is never the great game-player he is, but is a loyal and dutiful wife and content to be a good mother to their children. Or maybe she does become and excellent game-player, wicked and cunning, and together they bind Westeros to their will. (Perhaps even becoming the new royal house or marrying their kids into it.) For the Sansa we know, is this a defeat, or just the triumph of the adult game over childish dreams and ideals ? Nobody would much like it, but maybe a vexed fan base is just as valid as a content one.

Sansa has a choice - everyone does - but that does not mean she will necessarily choose well. By all means let's hope Sansa does not end up as Littlefinger's web, but knowing what we know, this could be the "controversial" thing.

In the ASOIAF story, is this sort of painful let-down a rarity ? Sadly, no. "Good" does not always triumph over "evil". People live and die unfulfilled, or they make bad / compromised choices that poison their future, or maybe they just settle for less. It is realistic, which is why it would be credible or at least not impossible.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I just wanted to pop in and add my two stars to the discussion surrounding Ran's by now well-known comment on a Sansa chapter he read:

I'm pretty sure what I said was that I thought the chapter might be controversial in some quarters of the fandom. I guess that means it could well be controversial. But, who knows, my assessment might be wrong.

Might be controversial in some quarters of the fandom doesn't sound like a doomsday situation where Sansa has to undergo horrific tortures. I don't doubt that Ran is limited in what he can actually say, but unless "controversial" is a euphemism for GRAR! or OMGNOOO! it sounds more like something unexpected, maybe upsetting, and will probably make some people angry. Especially with that "might be" qualifier. Again, unless these are all euphemisms chosen because Ran can't (obviously!) tell us all about the chapter, it doesn't sound like anything truly bad happening to Sansa.

"Some quarters of the fandom" does that mean all Sansa fans? Shippers of Sansa with anyone in particular? Perhaps (I hate to say this...) the SanSan ship will sink and that would sure prove to be controversial, to put it mildly.

One of the possibilities I surmise is that Sansa might start to go down a more dark path - like her siblings Arya and Bran (and probably Rickon, and GRRM said somewhere that Jon will become a more morally gray character). Not evil, mind you, but perhaps doing some things that we might have trouble believing that gentle, compassionate, ladylike Sansa could or would do. I'm actually thinking that this latter scenario is the most lilkely, and will be controversial amongst Sansa fans. By "a more dark path" I don't mean a hired killer like Arya or warging into another human like Bran, but rather becoming more cold, calculating and ruthless.

My $.02 for now. (ETA: Pod - "a Red Wedding of the soul" - I've always loved that line and thought it was so evocative and so sad. I hope Sansa does not wind up in Scenario 1 !!)

[Pod The Impaler]

Granted - the word "controversial" conjures up all sorts of horrors in peoples' minds. It could be something entirely unforeseen, and relatively minor. For example: Sansa finally loses her temper and pulls a Barristan before storming out of a public gathering.

[Angalin]

Let's try all that again without the personal attacks, shall we?

[brashcandy]

Well the Sansa parts in Episode 4 were interesting :)

Why does everyone and their grandma know that LF is trying to spirit Sansa away to the Eyrie?

Sansa has a choice - everyone does - but that does not mean she will necessarily choose well. By all means let's hope Sansa does not end up as Littlefinger's web, but knowing what we know, this could be the "controversial" thing.

In the ASOIAF story, is this sort of painful let-down a rarity ? Sadly, no. "Good" does not always triumph over "evil". People live and die unfulfilled, or they make bad / compromised choices that poison their future, or maybe they just settle for less. It is realistic, which is why it would be credible or at least not impossible.

Realistic perhaps, but credible with respect to Sansa's story arc? I'd still have to say no. LF is not just any random man in this whole affair. He's someone who's almost single-handedly responsible for the demise of the Starks, and we've seen his perverted interest in Sansa right from the beginning. Sansa's story may consist of lost illusions and harsh realities, but I don't believe that Martin would have invested all this careful development in her character - highlighting her enduring compassion and will power - to simply let it conclude with her accepting LF's entire world-view and becoming his wife/lover/accomplice. IMO, it wouldn't do justice to the character, and it would negatively impact the story.

[brashcandy]

Ragnorak has made an intriguing new observation to his thread on the foreshadowing and symbolism in Sansa's snow castle scene. Anyone interested can check it out here.

[Lady Lea]

Did anyone see Ran's review of tonight's episode?

When he talked about how Brienne's remarks would "spark debate in some quarters of the fandom". Sound familiar? Yep... hold on to your butts, I think it's going to be a gender thing.

[1234567]

Well the Sansa parts in Episode 4 were interesting :)

Why does everyone and their grandma know that LF is trying to spirit Sansa away to the Eyrie?

Haven't seen the episode yet, but I am worried from the preview from next week that the Tyrion whitewashing will continue. People on TWOP are already wishing she could marry Tyrion because "she'd be safe and have a truly compassionate husband. " :ugh:

Also should Sansa just write postcards from the Eyrie, by the sounds of it everyone knows where she is going.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Haven't seen the episode yet, but I am worried from the preview from next week that the Tyrion whitewashing will continue. People on TWOP are already wishing she could marry Tyrion because "she'd be safe and have a truly compassionate husband. " :ugh:

Also should Sansa just write postcards from the Eyrie, by the sounds of it everyone knows where she is going.

I partially blame Peter Dinklage (as terrific an actor as he is and as enjoyable as he is to watch) - for being more appealing than book!Tyrion.

LadyLea - I looked but couldn't find Ran's review - could you post a link? (I found the threads he started but nothing that was "his review.") Not to discuss the show :) but to have some reference for what was under the spoiler cut. (Or you could spoiler cut what he said. I'd like to speculate on what it might refer to...)

[brashcandy]

Ran's analysis

And the specific quote in question (highlight to see properly)

What more to say about the Jaime and Brienne scenes that has not already been said? Coster-Waldau and Christie continue to play their parts perfectly, given the circumstances the characters find themselves in. Brienne frames Jaime’s plight as one of misfortune and loss, and then contextualizes it: many people suffer losses, and must cope; just because he’s a Lannister, he shouldn’t be immune to this. Then she follows this with an insult: he’s acting like a woman. Or, rather, like the cultural stereotype of a woman. This is, of course, interesting on any number of levels for Brienne to say. Is it a calculated insult, no more? Is it a sign of self-hatred? Is it a knowingly understood irony? All good questions. It will, doubtless, spark arguments in some quarters, given its seemingly mixed message about gender roles and expectations.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Thank you so much Brash! :)

I think that the surmise that the Sansa Chapter Controversy might be gender-based is well-founded, given that this gender reference was what Ran considered "controversial" in the show. I have to wonder if it might be this: Sansa being expected to "charm" Harry, and Harry acts like it means he can treat her badly because she's female and a bastard. And Petyr's reaction is "that's the way of the world," and Anya Waynwood etc. are less than sympathetic - they think "Alayne" is the loose woman.

This is just a guess, but it did come to my mind when I thought "gender related" - and I agree with Lady Lea that the controversy may well be gender-related. And if something like this happened, it would probably harden Sansa on her resolve to not want to marry at all, or only under exceptional circumstances.

[brashcandy]

You're welcome :)

I can't speculate on what it could be exactly in relation to Sansa's story, but I do agree that it may indeed be something similar. I think this could potentially put some of the more drastic fears to rest, since the Brienne quote may spark arguments, as Ran said, but it's not exactly scandalous or game changing.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Naturally, only GRRM knows for sure what will happen, and Ran isn't going to give us actual spoilers. :) But what I am understanding is that this "controversial" chapter is more like "thought provoking" than "OMG" or "GRAR!" It will probably get the P2P threads hopping!

I speculated on Harry, because he seems so much like Robert Baratheon, Jr. Petyr tells Sansa that he's gallant and handsome, etc. - but as we all know, and as Sansa knows by now, Petyr is Westeros' #1 Bullshitter. Harry having two bastard children at 16 is not promising. I think even Robert just had one at that age! I just have a feeling that there will be some gender-related, social-class-related ugliness going down around the Sansa/Harry interactions.

If not this, then some other - most likely gender or social class related - event. But nothing "scandalous or game changing (to quote Brash). Certainly no Red Wedding Mark 2! :D After all, even if the series stretches to eight books instead of seven, things are going to have to start coming together in TWOW as it is Book 6, so there can't be too many new game changers.

[Hound's She-wolf]

I'm sure it's going to be something gender related, maybe she has to suffer through an exam for her maidenhead before Harry will consent to marriage. I worry that there will be some sort of sexual assault, but I hope not.

[Karmarni]

Newstar - No, I don't see Aegon and Sansa interacting, at least not from what I've seen so far. I was just impressed by your comments about their stories' parallels and remembered the dragonfly discussions from a few threads back.

Always like your comments that relate to the show!

[Pod The Impaler]

Ran's analysis

And the specific quote in question (highlight to see properly)

What more to say about the Jaime and Brienne scenes that has not already been said? Coster-Waldau and Christie continue to play their parts perfectly, given the circumstances the characters find themselves in. Brienne frames Jaime’s plight as one of misfortune and loss, and then contextualizes it: many people suffer losses, and must cope; just because he’s a Lannister, he shouldn’t be immune to this. Then she follows this with an insult: he’s acting like a woman. Or, rather, like the cultural stereotype of a woman. This is, of course, interesting on any number of levels for Brienne to say. Is it a calculated insult, no more? Is it a sign of self-hatred? Is it a knowingly understood irony? All good questions. It will, doubtless, spark arguments in some quarters, given its seemingly mixed message about gender roles and expectations.

"Calculated insult" is the way I am seeing it. Brienne said what she needed to say to slap Jaime's wounded pride.

(Even with that, I prefer the book's emphasis on the cowardice part.)

As someone also pointed out, the divergence from the book in S3 EP4 with regard to else anyone knowing about LF's plans for Sansa makes me more skeptical than the Jaime / Brienne bit. I thought the whole point was how that flew under peoples' radar. Though given how they've done things, I can see where the big swerve comes from. Silver hair net anyone ?

[ArabellaVidal]

Thanks to Brash's link to the new snow castle thread, its reminded me that Sansa's falling in line with LF's plans for her and make him think he's controlling her until she either gets to Winterfell or has his help in restoring it before she slays him. The re-reading of that scene should help to remember that eventually it'll be Sansa who uses and discards LF and she'll not remain Alayne much longer. This ties in very nicely with the ghost wolf she hears howling during the descent to the Gates of the Moon. Ragnorak's reference to her 'attack' on LF is a thing of beauty. Unfortunately, this seems to mean that LF will probably accompany her to Winter fell so we won't be rid of him anytime soon.

Also, could the controversy be what was discussed before, a pomegranate 'attack' on Sansa by her wicked stepfather?