From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIX

[brashcandy]

My dear friends, I would like to use this opportunity to invite you to read my Review of Sansa`s wedding and bedding scenes, I posted on TV subforum. I hope you`ll like it and as always, I would be more than happy to read your insights. Also, I would like to thank brashcandy for dedicating her time and led the conversation since I wasn`t able to. Thank you, brash, it means so much to me.

Mladen, you are kind to say so, but my contribution was actually minimal. The discussion seems to have taken on a life of its own.

Hello,

I'm not sure if I have mentioned this before, but can I be a bit fan-girly and say how much I enjoy reading all of your essays.

When I first started reading ASoIaF Sansa was not my favouite character, but as the books progressed I started to really love her (about SoS-ish). But reading the essays on here, and seeing all of your hard work go into it, I'v come to love her even more and, if I had to rank, I'd say she'd be in my top 5 all time favourites.

So, wonderfull job you guys are all doing and keep at it :) I really enjoy reading it all

Thank you Isildur's Mane :) And don't hesitate to join the discussion too!

[Mladen]

Mladen, you are kind to say so, but my contribution was actually minimal. The discussion seems to have taken on a life of its own.

Brashcandy, it was enough. You and Dr Pepper led discussion and gave me time to see the episode and write my own review of the scenes. For you it may be minimal, but I see it as very kind friendly gesture :), which I am very grateful on.

[brashcandy]

FYI:

Westeros posted a link to this video, with the description below.

The Politics of Marriage

HBO’s official Youtube channel for Game of Thrones has posted an interesting video, focusing on the political marriages that are so central to this season of the show. The executive producers, as well as George R.R. Martin, provide commentary.

"... But at least if he marries Sansa he can protect her, especially from Joffrey." - I wonder in which alternative version of the story D&D picked that up? Even in last night's episode, Joff makes it clear that Sansa would be at his mercy with Tyrion passed out drunk.

[Mladen]

FYI:

Westeros posted a link to this video, with the description below.

The Politics of Marriage

I `adore` how they stipulated Tyrion/Sansa marriage to him trying to protect her... So annoyingly sad, and as someone said, tragicly predictable.

[brashcandy]

I `adore` how they stipulated Tyrion/Sansa marriage to him trying to protect her... So annoyingly sad, and as someone said, tragicly predictable.

Yes, I just edited my post after I watched the video to include that point. I think it's clear in how they've portrayed Tyrion's character that they have a very different understanding of his motives and actions.

[Minsc]

Yes, I just edited my post after I watched the video to include that point. I think it's clear in how they've portrayed Tyrion's character that they have a very different understanding of his motives and actions.

In connection to a number of their commentaries and show decisions I question if they have even read the same books and that is not only connection to their portrayal of Tyrion.

[bbstark]

FYI:

Westeros posted a link to this video, with the description below.

The Politics of Marriage

"... But at least if he marries Sansa he can protect her, especially from Joffrey." - I wonder in which alternative version of the story D&D picked that up? Even in last night's episode, Joff makes it clear that Sansa would be at his mercy with Tyrion passed out drunk.

It's annoying how they write off Sansa in 2 sentences (or less) furthermore, the fact that

she smiles at him before the wedding shows some sort of sincerety that conveys she actually believes he would and could protect her.

How are we now supposed to believe that she wants and most of all SHOULD escape KL?

I'm afraid that her escape is going to only draw more sympathy for Tyrion, as in she left him in his dire hour of need after the Purple wedding, instead of 'escaped from the clutches of all Lannisters' which is the sense we got in the books.

I suggested in the TV forums, that they could still turn this around in Sansa's favor, if they showed very explicitly how Tyrion can't or even won't defend her, thus justifying her wanting to escape instead of doing her duty as his wife. I think it finally add some greyness to his character, and show the kind of strength Sansa is actually develoing. It's just speculation, but I think at this point it might actually be a good (or better at least) direction favoring Sansa .... it's not an actual hope though, I have very little faith at an actual develpment of Sansa right now.

[Mladen]

Yes, I just edited my post after I watched the video to include that point. I think it's clear in how they've portrayed Tyrion's character that they have a very different understanding of his motives and actions.

The most interesting thing is that in my tragic escapade on TV subforum, I realized how hypocritical community can be towards us. We, so-called, Sansa fans, unreasonable, and unable to understand the story etc and etc, are basically nothing comparing D&D`s love and biasedness towards Tyrion.

[brashcandy]

In connection to a number of their commentaries and show decisions I question if they have even read the same books and that is not only connection to their portrayal of Tyrion.

Welcome Minsc, and yes, I completely agree.

It's annoying how they write off Sansa in 2 sentences (or less) furthermore, the fact that

she smiles at him before the wedding shows some sort of sincerety that conveys she actually believes he would and could protect her.

How are we now supposed to believe that she wants and most of all SHOULD escape KL?

I'm afraid that her escape is going to only draw more sympathy for Tyrion, as in she left him in his dire hour of need after the Purple wedding, instead of 'escaped from the clutches of all Lannisters' which is the sense we got in the books.

I suggested in the TV forums, that they could still turn this around in Sansa's favor, if they showed very explicitly how Tyrion can't or even won't defend her, thus justifying her wanting to escape instead of doing her duty as his wife. I think it finally add some greyness to his character, and show the kind of strength Sansa is actually develoing. It's just speculation, but I think at this point it might actually be a good (or better at least) direction favoring Sansa .... it's not an actual hope though, I have very little faith at an actual develpment of Sansa right now.

Good suggestions. I can only hope they find some way to salvage the wreckage.

[Minsc]

It's annoying how they write off Sansa in 2 sentences (or less) furthermore, the fact that

she smiles at him before the wedding shows some sort of sincerety that conveys she actually believes he would and could protect her.

How are we now supposed to believe that she wants and most of all SHOULD escape KL?

I'm afraid that her escape is going to only draw more sympathy for Tyrion, as in she left him in his dire hour of need after the Purple wedding, instead of 'escaped from the clutches of all Lannisters' which is the sense we got in the books.

I suggested in the TV forums, that they could still turn this around in Sansa's favor, if they showed very explicitly how Tyrion can't or even won't defend her, thus justifying her wanting to escape instead of doing her duty as his wife. I think it finally add some greyness to his character, and show the kind of strength Sansa is actually develoing. It's just speculation, but I think at this point it might actually be a good (or better at least) direction favoring Sansa .... it's not an actual hope though, I have very little faith at an actual develpment of Sansa right now.

It doesn't help that they turned Littlefinger into a Snidely Whiplash on the show and have already made it apparent that he is the one "rescuing" her, thus she will just look dumb all over to the viewers when she chooses LF over Tyrion just like how they portrayed the choice between Loras(HE IS GAY!!!!) and Tyrion.

[bbstark]

It doesn't help that they turned Littlefinger into a Snidely Whiplash on the show and have already made it apparent that he is the one "rescuing" her, thus she will just look dumb all over to the viewers when she chooses LF over Tyrion just like how they portrayed the choice between Loras(HE IS GAY!!!!) and Tyrion.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you because I'm not sure what people mean when they say "Snidely Whiplash"? I've seen it once or twice,could you explain it?

[Milady of York]

But reading the essays on here, and seeing all of your hard work go into it, I'v come to love her even more and, if I had to rank, I'd say she'd be in my top 5 all time favourites.

So, wonderfull job you guys are all doing and keep at it :) I really enjoy reading it all

It's a very nice compliment on the collective effort of us ladies and gentlemen in this thread, Isildur. Thank you, and welcome.

Now, it's time for me to post a new one soon...

[Minsc]

I'm sorry, I'm not following you because I'm not sure what people mean when they say "Snidely Whiplash"? I've seen it once or twice,could you explain it?

Snidely Whiplash is the stereotypical villain in the style of stock characters found in silent movies and earlier stage melodrama, wearing black clothing, cape, and a top hat, and twirling his long handlebar moustache from Dudley Do-Right.

Meaning that Show:LF is clearly portrayed as an unambiguously evil creeper that will do harm to Sansa.

[bbstark]

Snidely Whiplash is the stereotypical villain in the style of stock characters found in silent movies and earlier stage melodrama, wearing black clothing, cape, and a top hat, and twirling his long handlebar moustache from Dudley Do-Right.

Meaning that Show:LF is clearly portrayed as an unambiguously evil creeper that will do harm to Sansa.

oh god yes! Sansa is currently holding the title to most naive, and most likely to fall into LF's (or anyone else's trapP

I can't see them faithfully depicting Sansa in an honest and sympathetic manner unless they allow Tyrion to screw up and basically fail

on his promise to protect her. What they have failed to show the viewers that she is and should *still* be terrified to be in the position she is in. In spite of Tyrion's promise, and most definitley in spite of Marg's words of comfort. She's in danger, and instead of depicting a young woman shielding herself, they show a very shallow young woman. They could do this for instance by mentioning Ned more? Or any of her family? They are basically divorcing Sansa from the North and her family, and the power she should hold as the oldest Stark daughter (and as far as most of Westeros knows Robb's heir, in the event something would happen to him) and focusing on what she thinks of Tyrion as a person... it's truly disappointing.

I want to see Tyrion fail her. That would give the viewers the kind of shock and sense of dread they should feel and that the book readers get when going through her POV

[Isildur's Mane]

Mladen, you are kind to say so, but my contribution was actually minimal. The discussion seems to have taken on a life of its own.

Thank you Isildur's Mane :) And don't hesitate to join the discussion too!

It's a very nice compliment on the collective effort of us ladies and gentlemen in this thread, Isildur. Thank you, and welcome.

Now, it's time for me to post a new one soon...

:) no problems - I hope to try and join in, if I can.

I just watched the Politics of Marriage clip.

My first thought was 'Arghh', my second was 'did we get Sansa's POV of it?' By that, I mean Sophie's? And so I watched it again and no, we didn't. This is just another way to make Tyrion more sympathetic.

This whole clip made my skin crawl.

[Mladen]

Here`s interview with Sophie Turner about weddings and this episode. It was cute, but unfortunately, not so insightful :)

I am so sad this thread had derailed so much from Elba`s wonderful essay. That essay deserved more of our attention, but alas...

[sastelise]

Hi all,

I've been lurking in this community for a while and have enjoyed reading the various essays. They've given me a deeper appreciation for Sansa's character and I love all the different angles from which this community has analyzed her story. I confess that I waiver between thinking that there is something great in store for Sansa, to thinking that her apparent lack of analysis about events which she observes is a sign of "the crickets chirping." This forum has convinced me that her character is nuanced and that there is hope for a positive outcome for her. But I do think the TV show is tipping the scales. Below is an analysis between the books vs the show that I meant to post in the TV forum, which was locked by the time I finished writing it. I apologize in advance if this is not the appropriate forum, but I'm specifically interested in what members here make of her inner monologue in her last POV chapter in AFFC (which has me worried/skeptical about her growth as a character). I guess I am in need of some words of wisdom to help convince me that Sansa will come into her own:

The wedding scene in the latest TV episode was more about Tyrion than Sansa. Most of the camera angles are tilted up, with Sansa looming high above him – a subtle way of getting the audience to empathize with Tyrion by having us view things from his perspective. Having said that, I think Sophie did a great job of with the material. She captured a mixture of emotions - an expression of sad helplessness, matched with a resolution to be brave, and composed. The latter is what Sansa has been taught by her Septa, and the fact that she continues to practice her courtesies shows that she isn’t swayed by circumstance to adopt a more scheming and manipulative approach. In some ways what she’s been taught is the last link to her family, and it’s no wonder that, without anyone to guide her, she hangs on to managing the only thing she really has control over – her demeanor. I think that this is a sign of integrity on her part, though her inability to adapt may end up being to her detriment.

It’s interesting to note what the costume designers said about their creations for this episode – the dresses are meant to look like armor, though leaving the arms exposed makes Sansa look more vulnerable. This made me think about the line “a lady’s courtesy is her shield.” In the books, Sansa finally rejects her Septa’s teachings on her wedding night, when she and Tyrion are naked. She cannot find anything in her new husband that’s worth liking. Whether this is primarily because he’s a Lannister or because he’s ugly is irrelevant, since it would be unrealistic to expect anyone to evaluate a mate, not of their own choosing, on only one level. Obviously, we are not afforded this insight to her character on screen, for a number of reasons, which I completely understand.

As for Sansa’s kneeling in the TV show, I don’t see how they could have handled it differently. There would have to be build up to this defiant moment in order for it to make sense to the TV audience. Still, I disagree with the idea that the lack of development of Sansa’s character this season expresses a disinterest on the part of the producers. Though Sansa’s character is more developed in the books because we have the benefit of witnessing her observations and some internal reactions, there is also evidence in the books that she’s on a one step forward, two steps back path. In her last POV in AFFC she’s summoned by LF once she’s made her way down from the mountain with info that he has a gift for her. She’s thinking about getting a new dress when LF springs Harry the Heir on her as his “gift.”

It almost seems that Sansa isn’t even aware that there is a game. Given that Martin directed last week’s episode, which was quite awful in terms of her character development, It’s entirely possible that he doesn’t plan on any great awakening on Sansa’s part; I think the show’s producers are following this course. Either LF’s teachings will usurp those of her Septa and she will become an entirely different person, someone who has been molded to play the game as opposed to someone deciding to play of her own accord, or she’ll meet a tragic end because she could not adapt. The former, more realistic outcome, would be upsetting to Sansa fans like me who see an inherent kindness in her that could be a latent source of power, and the latter would be all the more sad because she has developed somewhat from the beginning– just not enough. If Martin wanted to turn the damsel in distress trope on its head, having the damsel rescue herself isn’t his only option. He can also show that one cannot hope to win in Westeros just because they’re lovely, virtuous, or even intelligent. Experience, foresight, and a little bit of luck is needed. Whatever Sansa’s growth, perhaps it’s too little too late.

While I’d like to be pleasantly surprised in the end and see Sansa rise to power by her own machinations, I suspect that’s not where her story is headed. Either way, this is what makes her an interesting character to follow – we’re not sure what the outcome will be for her.

[Mladen]

snip

Welcome to the thread, sastelise. I hope you`ll have a pleasent time here with us.As for TV, I am sory the thread was closed due to length before you could post your opinion. I am glad I had the chance to read it, and although I don`t agree 100% with it, it was rather interesting reading.

[Isildur's Mane]

Here`s interview with Sophie Turner about weddings and this episode. It was cute, but unfortunately, not so insightful :)

I am so sad this thread had derailed so much from Elba`s wonderful essay. That essay deserved more of our attention, but alas...

I just read it - and I agree, cute... I would of just like to see it in the clip too - because it felt so Tyrion focused when talking about Tyrion and Sansa wedding.

I'll find Elba's essay and read it now.

[brashcandy]

Welcome Sastelise, and thanks for such a thoughtful post.

To begin, I think it's useful to remind ourselves about what GRRM says concerning the books vs. the show (courtesy of Le Cygne's compilation):

"There are a few characters that are different. David and Dan have made some different decisions at some points and so forth... Television Littlefinger is different than book Littlefinger, in very, very significant ways... In any case, I have been living with these characters since 1991 and I have a very firm notion in my mind of who they are, and the television characters have only been around for a few years, so it's not going to displace the characters I've been living with for 20 years of my life."

The novels are novels, the TV series is the TV series. They're two different beasts... ultimately that's their baby and the books are my baby... I don't have any veto power. I signed a pretty standard contract where I gave them the rights to adapt this into a television series, and I got certain titles, and the agreement I'd write one script a year, and a large dump truck full of money. And they can have the aliens come down next season, they can turn the whole cast into vampires, and I'm powerless to stop them. But I don't think they will do that... If you are J.K. Rowling, you can go into a situation where every studio in Hollywood wants you and you can set very stringent terms where you get to approve everything. But if you' re not J.K. Rowling, and virtually nobody is J.K. Rowling except J.K. Rowling, then you can't do that."

I've shared much of the outrage and disappointment concerning Sansa's portrayal in the show, but I really do believe that we cannot allow the show's depictions of these characters to influence how we perceive them in the books. Our thread is dedicated to the work Martin has created in the novels, and we firmly believe that he's established credible development for Sansa up to AFFC. Concerning her final chapter in that novel, we think it's one that highlights Sansa's continued ties to the North and her loved ones (thoughts of Jon, Sandor, the ghost wolf), and that this will be critical in her future quest for agency. I know a lot of fans have been troubled by her seeming investment in the LF way of thinking, but we have to remember that Sansa is focused on surviving, and as yet had no idea of what LF was planning. She only learns this at the very end of the chapter, and Martin does not show us her response.

With regard to Martin's writing on the show: he's writing within the parameters set by D&D, so he's writing for their characters. And I think it may have been Minsc who noted this in another thread, but the whitewashing of Tyrion has necessitated changes in many of the characters around him, namely Shae and Sansa. And this show has not shown a preference for nuanced storytelling (or complex characterization), something that is essential to appreciating Sansa's development.