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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIX


Milady of York

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Jaime Lannister is the Kingslayer, the epitome of false knight. I think this could be a reason for not finding him attractive.

ETA: I loved Sansa's immage in the poster. It is very close to how I imagine her. (In my mind, she looks like Romy Schneider in Sisi)

You know I think you have hit the nail on the head ShadowCat. It's obvious from the very beginning that Ned is not fond of Jaime and that pretty much stems from Jaime killing Aerys and then sitting on the throne which is how Ned found him when he got to the throne room at the end of the rebellion. I think it's very likely that Sansa would have picked up on Ned's feelings right away which could be why she never gave him much thought and it fits in with Milady's analysis that Sansa is more attracted to behavior and actions rather than looks.
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This coincidence, plus the overwhelming predominance of brunets in her choices, leads me to think that Lord Stark influenced his daughter’s preference for certain physical attributes in males. This is an unconscious cognitive process that starts very early in childhood and usually doesn’t manifest until much later, generally in womanhood. That old popular adage that one’s partner resembles one’s parent is real enough, and it obeys partly to evolutionary biological imprinting (genetic perpetuation) and partly to cognitive shaping due to upbringing rather than some convoluted psychoanalytic hypothesis. But as with everything, there are some nuances: this pattern is more easily found in traditionally feminine, i.e. “girlie,” daughters of fathers who’re themselves a traditional image of virility, requisites met by Sansa and Eddard; and contrary to widespread belief, it’s more likely to happen if the girl grew up with the necessary emotional support from both parents and had a positive father figure. This resemblance is usually to be found first and foremost in facial metrics, i.e. shape of the face, and secondarily in hair and eye colour. Applying the latter to Sansa’s choices, if we observe the various descriptions of her father’s face by different characters—long and sharp-featured—we can notice a correlation between it and Clegane’s face—gaunt and sharp cheekbones—who’s precisely the one she develops feelings for at a time when she’s entering into womanhood. Moreover, unlike his elder brother, Eddard Stark was plain-faced, and according to GRRM, without the scars the Hound would’ve been plain-faced as well; and finally, we have the similarities in their hair and eye colour as noted above.

This is brilliant as usual Milady.

I’m glad you wrote this essay as this idea of unconscious cognitive process in Sansa’s relationship with Sandor has already crossed my mind. So thank you for confirming my suspicions :) .

I think Sandor ties Sansa to her Stark identity. As you have demonstrated, he looks like a Stark and that could have an impact on her choice of partner later on. But Sandor’s personal values are also very similar to Northern or Stark values. Sandor is infamous for being honest; and so is Ned. He’s a warrior but insists that he’s not a knight. And as we know, there are no knights in the North. He’s not a showy person: his armour is simple and dented unlike other southern warriors. This simplicity seems to be a character trait of Ned as well. In short, Sandor is a straightforward and hardy character that Sansa comes to appreciate. But through him, I’d say that’s also the Northern values and her own origins that she embraces.

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Hello everyone.

I've been reading these threads with amazement in your detailed analysis! Just wanted to tell you that it is such an interesting read even though I don't have anything really interesting to contribute.

I came to this thread because I tried to find a place where Sansa is not thought of as a silly, vapid, little thing. At first she seems like this, but as you guys have showed in the many, many, many detailed and insightful posts she isn't that at all. I had a beginning of a feeling of what Sansa was all about, but when I came here, the pieces really started to fit together.

Thank you all!

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Hello everyone.

I've been reading these threads with amazement in your detailed analysis! Just wanted to tell you that it is such an interesting read even though I don't have anything really interesting to contribute.

I came to this thread because I tried to find a place where Sansa is not thought of as a silly, vapid, little thing. At first she seems like this, but as you guys have showed in the many, many, many detailed and insightful posts she isn't that at all. I had a beginning of a feeling of what Sansa was all about, but when I came here, the pieces really started to fit together.

Thank you all!

Official welcome EotC, and it's good to know you've found the thread helpful :) Don't be shy about contributing to the discussion either. New perspectives can be quite enlightening.

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You know I think you have hit the nail on the head ShadowCat. It's obvious from the very beginning that Ned is not fond of Jaime and that pretty much stems from Jaime killing Aerys and then sitting on the throne which is how Ned found him when he got to the throne room at the end of the rebellion. I think it's very likely that Sansa would have picked up on Ned's feelings right away which could be why she never gave him much thought and it fits in with Milady's analysis that Sansa is more attracted to behavior and actions rather than looks.

We also have evidence of what Robb said to Bran - who was just as idealistic about knights and famed warriors as Sansa:

Two of the Kingsguard had come North with King Robert. Bran had watched them with fascination, never quite daring to speak to them. Ser Boros was a bald man with a jowly face, and Ser Meryn had droopy eyes and a beard the color of rust. Ser Jaime Lannister looked more like the knights in the stories, and he was of the Kingsguard too, but Robb said he had killed the old mad king and shouldn't count anymore.

I've been lurking these Sansa threads for the longest time, but have had no real input to the AMAZING posts, just want to say how fab you guys are. x

Thanks Theda!

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I'm thinking one of two things:

1. Sansa realizes the truth about Sweetrobin being poisoned and chooses to do nothing.

2. Something graphic and sexual involving Sansa. I don't think it would be Sansa being molested or raped--would "controversial" be the right word to describe Sansa being molested or raped, as opposed to heartbreaking, sad, tragic, brutal, etc. etc.?--but maybe something really sexual, like Littlefinger bringing in prostitutes to train Sansa and graphic descriptions of what they get up to while training her. Or maybe she has a really, really graphic sexual fantasy involving the Hound. Extremely sexualized content would be plenty controversial, given Sansa's age.

Could be something else, but that's sort of where my head's at. NotSoSilentSister made a very good point in the other thread, that "controversial" could mean one of two things:

1. Inviting criticism of Sansa (corresponds to my #1); or

2. Inviting criticism of the author (corresponds to my #2).

It would have to be something ridiculously crass, gratuitous and exploitative to fall under #2, though.

GRRM did say that the Sansa chapter bumped from ADWD kicked off a new storyline for her, so maybe it's something we won't even see coming because it involves a brand-new plot.

Could also be something like Sansa dabbles in some same-sex experimentation. Pretty sure fandom would have a meltdown if that happened. Hey, all the queens are doing it!

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...The word controversial for a new Sansa chapter has me a tad worried.... Thoughts?

Considering the reception of Sansa, controversial could cover all number of sins. The one thing it suggests to me for sure is a significant change to the previous few chapters but that could be explicit warging, seducing Harry the Heir, plotting against Littlefinger, showing explicit intelligence, defying littlefinger, connecting with Bran, making an explicit move to assert herself as a player in the game of thrones etc

I feel controversial is very open, particularly seen the chapter is controversial - which mean that it could include Littlefinger doing something controversial - contacting Aegon, sending a message to Daenerys, murdering Sweetrobin, confessing to Sansa that Sweetrobin is is son, telling Sansa he loved from the first moment he saw her, organising a massacre of his political rivals etc

My other thought, Brashcandy is that it is good if you are worried. We believe there is potential for terrible and exciting things to happen in Sansa's story

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I'm thinking one of two things:

1. Sansa realizes the truth about Sweetrobin being poisoned and chooses to do nothing.

2. Something graphic and sexual involving Sansa. I don't think it would be Sansa being molested or raped--would "controversial" be the right word to describe Sansa being molested or raped, as opposed to heartbreaking, sad, tragic, brutal, etc. etc.?--but maybe something really sexual, like Littlefinger bringing in prostitutes to train Sansa and graphic descriptions of what they get up to while training her. Or maybe she has a really, really graphic sexual fantasy involving the Hound. Extremely sexualized content would be plenty controversial, given Sansa's age.

I just left a comment in the other thread, but basically I rule out both of these because while they would both be certainly controversial, I don't think the first is credible from a characterization standpoint, and the second one doesn't seem likely, moreso because LF prefers grooming to outright force at this stage, and having Sansa suffering this act would just be gross and ridiculous. As for graphic descriptions relating to sex, I'm just not seeing it. Sansa might be entering womanhood, but she's no where near the experience level to have such thoughts about any man, and now that they're at the Gates of the Moon, LF doesn't have the free run of the place to be inviting prostitutes in for training sessions.

GRRM did say that the Sansa chapter bumped from ADWD kicked off a new storyline for her, so maybe it's something we won't even see coming because it involves a brand-new plot.

Yes, I honestly don't know what it could be, but we've always known that something big is going to happen. And a brand new plot would probably involve some controversy.

Could also be something like Sansa dabbles in some same-sex experimentation. Pretty sure fandom would have a meltdown if that happened. Hey, all the queens are doing it!

I don't know if the fandom would have a meltdown, but I'd hope it served a larger purpose.

@Lummel - agreed :) It could be any number of things, and I think we have to be careful not to see "controversial" and suddenly throw logic and common sense out the window. Any one of Sansa's upcoming chapters has the potential to be contentious, but I do think we're going to see her specifically doing something that is "surprising".

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I just left a comment in the other thread, but basically I rule out both of these because while they would both be certainly controversial, I don't think the first is credible from a characterization standpoint, and the second one doesn't seem likely, moreso because LF prefers grooming to outright force at this stage, and having Sansa suffering this act would just be gross and ridiculous. As for graphic descriptions relating to sex, I'm just not seeing it. Sansa might be entering womanhood, but she's no where near the experience level to have such thoughts about any man, and now that they're at the Gates of the Moon, LF doesn't have the free run of the place to be inviting prostitutes in for training sessions.

Yes, I honestly don't know what it could be, but we've always known that something big is going to happen. And a brand new plot would probably involve some controversy.

I don't know if the fandom would have a meltdown, but I'd hope it served a larger purpose.

@Lummel - agreed :) It could be any number of things, and I think we have to be careful not to see "controversial" and suddenly throw logic and common sense out the window. Any one of Sansa's upcoming chapters has the potential to be contentious, but I do think we're going to see her specifically doing something that is "surprising".

I'm not worried (well, I'm mostly not worried). Ran did that video some months back and had that comment about lemoncake fans really liking something in the first Sansa chapter. I know this isn't exactly what he said but I do remember it was a positive statement.

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I'm not worried (well, I'm mostly not worried). Ran did that video some months back and had that comment about lemoncake fans really liking something in the first Sansa chapter. I know this isn't exactly what he said but I do remember it was a positive statement.

That's true, but is it the same chapter or has he seen additional Sansa chapters at this point? Overall I'm not worried, and I think it was a given that Sansa's arc in particular would have some surprising developments.

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I'm not worried (well, I'm mostly not worried). Ran did that video some months back and had that comment about lemoncake fans really liking something in the first Sansa chapter. I know this isn't exactly what he said but I do remember it was a positive statement.

I remember, but... "sure to be controversial" doesn't sound so good. I definitely think it has something to do with LF. I don't think people care about Sweetrobin enough for it to be the controversial point... but who knows.

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It could be that GRRM has finished all of Sansa's WOW chapters and it is a later one. I remember reading somewhere that he does like to write all of one character's chapters in one go.

It could be something controversial happening in the chapter. The Tapestries are still waiting to be explained.

However Sansa having a child out of wedlock is a possibility, as it has been slightly set-up already. Given her age, that is still controversial, or LF finds out about it and tries to get her to drink Moontea. After all Lysa did list the ingredients in front of her.

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As with all interviews, sometimes bits get cut to tighten it up... I'm pretty sure what I said was that I thought the chapter might be controversial in some quarters of the fandom. I guess that means it could well be controversial. But, who knows, my assessment might be wrong.

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As with all interviews, sometimes bits get cut to tighten it up... I'm pretty sure what I said was that I thought the chapter might be controversial in some quarters of the fandom. I guess that means it could well be controversial. But, who knows, my assessment might be wrong.

Just posted by Ran.

Edit: Lady Lea beat me too it.

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