Jump to content

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIX


Milady of York

Recommended Posts

"Calculated insult" is the way I am seeing it. Brienne said what she needed to say to slap Jaime's wounded pride.

(Even with that, I prefer the book's emphasis on the cowardice part.)

As someone also pointed out, the divergence from the book in S3 EP4 with regard to else anyone knowing about LF's plans for Sansa makes me more skeptical than the Jaime / Brienne bit. I thought the whole point was how that flew under peoples' radar. Though given how they've done things, I can see where the big swerve comes from. Silver hair net anyone ?

I'm always cautious about reading too much into the show, but I wonder if this couldn't be pointing to Sansa's presence in the Vale being an open secret with some of the families in the region. We know there are intriguing possibilities with Bronze Yohn and Anya Waynwood in particular.

Thanks to Brash's link to the new snow castle thread, its reminded me that Sansa's falling in line with LF's plans for her and make him think he's controlling her until she either gets to Winterfell or has his help in restoring it before she slays him. The re-reading of that scene should help to remember that eventually it'll be Sansa who uses and discards LF and she'll not remain Alayne much longer. This ties in very nicely with the ghost wolf she hears howling during the descent to the Gates of the Moon. Ragnorak's reference to her 'attack' on LF is a thing of beauty. Unfortunately, this seems to mean that LF will probably accompany her to Winter fell so we won't be rid of him anytime soon.

Yes, and not to keep harping on this point, but even if some readers don't credit Sansa with being able to withstand LF's pressures from a psychological/intellectual point of view, Martin has still given us some fairly discernible clues on the foreshadowing/symbolism front.

Also, could the controversy be what was discussed before, a pomegranate 'attack' on Sansa by her wicked stepfather?

tze gave an answer to this in an earlier PTP thread that was quite suggestive:

I think there's another route the Jon/Sansa "pomegranate" parallel could take, though, one that isn't necessarily centered on Littlefinger attacking Sansa. Jon was literally attacked by his "pomegranate", because Bowen Marsh was associated, physically, with pomegranates----Bowen was not offering Jon a pomegranate, Bowen was the pomegranate. But with Sansa, Littlefinger isn't a direct analogue to Bowen Marsh, pomegranate-wise, because Littlefinger offered Sansa the pomegranate, but was not himself ever physically described as "the pomegranate". Jon was literally attacked by the Old Pomegranate, not by anythingoffered by Bowen Marsh. With Sansa, an actual pomegranate was offered. This distinction could be important to Sansa's future, given the Jon/Sansa parallels (and especially given the parallels Sansa's story already seems to have to the story of Snow White---the snow, the dwarves, fleeing the wicked Queen, etc.----and Snow White was of course "killed" by poisoned fruit).

Sansa's currently the only POV Stark who hasn't been physically injured; she was beaten by the Kingsguard, but it seems that pain alone isn't enough to increase warging ability---you have to lose access to at least a part of your physical body, as Bran lost his legs, Arya her eyesight, and Jon his hand (when it was burned) and leg (when he was shot with an arrow). There's been a lot of speculation that the physical trauma Jon experienced by the Marsh stabbing will end up greatly increasing his Old Gods-based powers, as physical injuries seem to do. Religions like the Faith of the Seven and R'hllorism clearly view darkness as "evil" . . . but the religion of the Old Gods seems to view darkness and the "underworld" (being beneath the earth) as highly positive things. Given the pomegranate parallel, perhaps Sansa will be "attacked" by a pomegranate, and that trauma will end up greatly increasing her Old Gods-based powers? But not via Littlefinger---Sansa was offered a literal pomegranate, so perhaps a literal pomegranate will cause the trauma that serves as her catalyst?

This is speculation, of course, but . . . there is a way for Sansa to be "literally" attacked by a pomegranate: if she (intentionally or not) eats a pomegranate that has been poisoned. Thus far, Sansa has encountered two "wicked stepmother/evil Queen" figures, concerned (or obsessed) with physical beauty, who both wanted to kill her: Cersei and Lysa. Then, in Sansa's final chapter in AFFC, she encountered Myranda Royce, who administers Lord Nestor's household (and thus, would have been in charge of planning the feast welcoming Lord Robert Arryn to the Gates of the Moon, a feast we haven't yet seen), who was clearly (and at some length) comparing Sansa's beauty to her own, and who brings up the idea, at some length, of Littlefinger marrying again (thus raising the specter of a new "stepmother" for Alayne/Sansa). There are plenty of hints there that Myranda actually did want to marry Harry the Heir (given the very high chance that Harry's wife will become Lady of the Vale), and "Alayne" of course stands in the way of that. In the story of Snow White, the Wicked Queen poisons Snow White with an apple, Snow White is placed in a glass coffin, and she is awoken with a kiss. Myranda (who claims she looks "like an apple" when she blushes) might play the role of the Wicked Queen here, poisoning Sansa at the feast to prevent her from ever marrying Harry the Heir. Sansa might "die" (or at the very least, fall into a coma) as the result of poisoning. (And notice Cersei's AFFC proclamation that Sansa "will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss". Snow White is, of course, eventually resurrected by a kiss.) But weaving the Persephone myth in to this could foreshadow Sansa being poisoned by a literal pomegranate (not an apple), and could indicate that any physical injuries caused by such a pomegranate could lead to Sansa's Old Gods-based powers thriving, as has been speculated elsewhere will happen to Jon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Calculated insult" is the way I am seeing it. Brienne said what she needed to say to slap Jaime's wounded pride.

(Even with that, I prefer the book's emphasis on the cowardice part.)

As someone also pointed out, the divergence from the book in S3 EP4 with regard to else anyone knowing about LF's plans for Sansa makes me more skeptical than the Jaime / Brienne bit. I thought the whole point was how that flew under peoples' radar. Though given how they've done things, I can see where the big swerve comes from. Silver hair net anyone ?

I agree with this especially the openness of LF's plans although there is the possibility that the people who know about is intentions now might assume LF abandoned the plans when Sansa is married to Tyrion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Danelle, Mahaut, and Milday your essays are both insightful and such a pleasure to read.

Sorry BrashCandy I will post some lines from the prologue.

I wish I understood more how to post properly in these threads..I am still trying to learn how to edit and just use the pc. Very pc illiterate

Prologue in ADWD Varamyr

Varamyr is thinking about his prior life while he is lying wounded. He remembers his dogs being hit in the head with axes when he was younger..ie his childhood.

He remembers that at one time he had gold and was feared as a warrior, and ate near the king " Mance". But its all been taken away because he became "craven" at the battle at the Wall and he ran..it was fire and he was burned. He reflects on this with shame. Later, he reflects back that he was wounded by a young boy name Squirrel who attacked him because he was trying to take a cloak from Squirrel's dead mother.

<snip>

Lady Arya's Song, I really like this and think it has tremendous potential. You seem to have a very good instinct for this. Your King Tristifer post about Cat and the roses stood out to me too, I'd link it if I could remember which thread it was in. I suspect we don't know enough of upcoming events to make much sense of this. The CoK prologue seems to foreshadow the Purple Wedding two books later and the SoS prologue seem to foreshadow Jon Snow killing Ramsay Bolton which must be at least three books later. We have a character who starts out associated with three dogs and then becomes associated with three wolves and a bird. There's a lot of Sandor/Sansa potential there. When I try and put the pieces together everything feels backwards. Sansa is the warg but Varamyr the warg seems to represent Sandor. The bird is consumed by fire but Sansa is represented by snow. Still there are a great many references there that have great symbolic potential. I may just be missing too much but I suspect there will be plot developments that will help put that symbolism in perspective. Very nice intuitive insight!

I made another post in the Snow Castle thread. Anyone have thoughts on the symbolic meaning of bells in Sansa, especially Sansa V in Storm when she flees the Purple Wedding?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I made another post in the Snow Castle thread. Anyone have thoughts on the symbolic meaning of bells in Sansa, especially Sansa V in Storm when she flees the Purple Wedding?

I’m glad you enjoyed the essay Ragnorak :).

I don’t know much about the symbolic meaning of bells but traditionally they’re used to announce events such as birth, death, attacks, fires etc. These are the types of events Sansa attends to but I couldn’t say if there’s more to it. I believe the ringing of bells is also supposed to be a holy sound that drives the demons away.

It’s interesting that you mentioned it since the show has also played with this idea of bells and Sansa in the first episode this season. Ros says that Sansa is an important person and that the bells rang from sunrise to sunset when she was born…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Disclaimer: This post is not meant to reignite the contentious debate on this issue, or to single out any board member(s). It is merely intended to communicate an official perspective which will hopefully help others to understand where we stand on the question based on our in-depth analyses of the character.

I want to speak briefly on the subject of the alleged “controversial” Sansa chapter in TWOW, and how I believe it could benefit in being interpreted from a “Pawn to Player” perspective. To be quite honest, although I sympathise with the fear (and fear mongering) that can immediately arise from the use of a such a word to describe a potential plot/character development, we’ve found a lot of the speculation and assumptions (presented as genuine probabilities) to be even more controversial and outrageous than anything Martin might have planned for us as readers and Sansa enthusiasts. In the short space of time that the interview has gone viral, and even after Ran qualified his statements to specify that “certain quarters of the fandom might find it controversial”, there’s been guesswork ranging from Sansa will be subjected to rape and sexual degradation, she might deliberately kill Sweetrobin, and even that she could experience a psychotic breakdown. What concerns me is that there has been very little attempt to place such speculations within the context of what we know about Sansa herself; very little attempt to cite evidence which would support such narrative developments; a reliance on uncritical sources of knowledge, and finally a continuation of the troubling implication that Sansa exists to be “acted upon” in the ASOIAF world.

The primary focus of the Pawn to Player threads, both the rereads and the rethinks, has been to understand and appreciate Sansa’s character through careful critical analysis, leading to the development of a credible opinion of her upcoming story line. We have shown via these discussions and analyses that Sansa is on the path towards agency and the acquisition of personal and/or political power, and that despite the challenges and changes she’s endured throughout the novels, she retains an important compassionate core, which is vital in separating her from men like Littlefinger. We have spoken at length on her inner strength and will power, qualities that manifested in an almost unbreakable courtesy armour, and that allowed her to withstand the pain of abuse, assault and the tragic deaths of beloved family members. We have seen that even whilst under virtual imprisonment in KL, Sansa still managed to act in the defence of helpless individuals, to build emotional connections, and to quell despair when others abandoned their duties.

In sum, what we have discovered about Martin’s portrayal of Sansa from AGOT-AFFC directly contradicts much of the wild speculations circulating in the fandom. That she is an important character who will have a significant role to play in upcoming events can be confirmed simply by relying on the foreshadowing and symbolism within her chapters. This post is not to assert that Martin cannot shock us with plot twists and surprises – indeed I’d be disappointed if he did not – but a logical framework that adheres to the character’s traits, narrative progression and overall authenticity in crucial areas should be of paramount consideration for both the author and readers. We often hear that this is Martin’s creation and that he can do anything he wants, but this ignores the literary imperative of internal consistency, which requires there to be narrative coherence where the writer follows a consistent pattern within the parameters of the story. It’s one of the reasons why Jon’s stabbing can be controversial, but no one expects that he’s really dead. Martin has talked before of knowing where the characters need to be, but not knowing how they will get there, and I think this supports the view of a writer who is paying close attention to his depiction of these characters, while allowing himself room to play.

Finally a word about on the controversy being of a sexually themed or sexually violent nature: If we wanted to we could dismiss this as “been there, done that” given how much Martin has showcased it previously as a threat facing Sansa; or we could argue that it’s unlikely he would subject a POV female character to this kind of violence for various problematic reasons. Regardless of whatever reasoning we take on why this particular controversy will not become a reality, I want to stress that Martin has shown Sansa experiencing a gradual sexual awakening in the latter part of ASOS (symbolized by her eating the juicy pear and rejection of the pomegranate), and that even with the explicit threat by Marillion at the Fingers, he (Martin) found a way to transform it into an empowering discovery connected to Sansa’s relationship with Sandor. The introduction of more experienced women (Mya Stone and Randa Royce) into Sansa’s inner circle in the Vale, and with whom she seems to enjoy relatively frank and open conversations, also confirms in our opinion that Sansa’s sexual development will be heading in more positive, self-fulfilling directions, and that this is a deliberate choice by the author, highlighting once again how internal consistency is at work in her story line.

And to be absolutely clear: we retain this opinion despite the obvious sexual interest LF holds towards Sansa. Not only because Martin has given us reason to be optimistic due to her aforementioned rejection of the pomegranate he offers at the Fingers (along with her serious reluctance to have him “come into her castle” in the snow Winterfell scene), but mostly due to the fact that we believe Sansa will ultimately defy LF, and his unwanted gestures, developing into a capable player with both offensive and defensive strategies at her disposal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And to be absolutely clear: we retain this opinion despite the obvious sexual interest LF holds towards Sansa. Not only because Martin has given us reason to be optimistic due to her aforementioned rejection of the pomegranate he offers at the Fingers (along with her serious reluctance to have him “come into her castle” in the snow Winterfell scene), but mostly due to the fact that we believe Sansa will ultimately defy LF, and his unwanted gestures, developing into a capable player with both offensive and defensive strategies at her disposal.

Should I take it that the thread in general is down on the possibility that this "controversy" entails Sansa making proactive use of Baelish's attraction to her in order to turn the tables on him?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Should I take it that the thread in general is down on the possibility that this "controversy" entails Sansa making proactive use of Baelish's attraction to her in order to turn the tables on him?

What we don't tend to support is the idea that Sansa will become some "femme fatale" temptress, using her sexuality to get men to do her bidding. Is there scope for Sansa in some instances to use her beauty and charm to her advantage? Yes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What we don't tend to support is the idea that Sansa will become some "femme fatale" temptress, using her sexuality to get men to do her bidding. Is there scope for Sansa in some instances to use her beauty and charm to her advantage? Yes.

Gotcha. I feel like she could end up as something like Cersei, but with a functional moral compass. Perhaps this is just outside the realm of the acceptable?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gotcha. I feel like she could end up as something like Cersei, but with a functional moral compass. Perhaps this is just outside the realm of the acceptable?

More outside the realm of the possible from a textual perspective. Sansa doesn't exactly credit Cersei's advice, and they are fundamentally two very different individuals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

More outside the realm of the possible from a textual perspective. Sansa doesn't exactly credit Cersei's advice, and they are fundamentally two very different individuals.

(Note: Please let me know if I'm reigniting whatever it was you didn't want to talk about...)

Hence the actual functioning moral compass. I feel that it is possible that Sansa may use Cersei's methods (as well as others'), but in order to achieve tangible, constructive goals. For example, in potentially boxing out Littlefinger from too much influence over the kind of lord the Heir may turn out to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(Note: Please let me know if I'm reigniting whatever it was you didn't want to talk about...)

Hence the actual functioning moral compass. I feel that it is possible that Sansa may use Cersei's methods (as well as others'), but in order to achieve tangible, constructive goals. For example, in potentially boxing out Littlefinger from too much influence over the kind of lord the Heir may turn out to be.

No you're not :)

The problem with this is that Cersei's methods don't exactly lead to the achievement of tangible, constructive goals. In trying to destroy others, one seems to enact a more insidious destruction of one's self. One of the hallmarks of Sansa's development throughout the four novels is that she's managed to effect change without sacrificing her morals or her empathetic bond with others. To adopt Cersei's methods would necessarily involve the removal of those things which define her, and I'd consider that a pretty big loss. When I think of characters with moral compasses, people like Tyrion come to mind: sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. When it comes to Sansa you're talking about a very different approach to these questions of right and wrong and responsibility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would it really take so much away from Sansa if she kept Petyr's blood flowing away from his brain long enough to insure that she, and not he, were Harry's most trusted advisor when it comes down to the question of what to do with the Knights of the Vale?

Please note, I think that she can accomplish this without actually "doing the deed" with Baelish (in fact, it would probably be more effective that way); in any event, that is most certainly not a scene I'd like to read.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any scene where Sansa is involved in keeping Petyr's blood away from his brains is not something I want to read. Your question really hinges on a lot of things though. Right now the plan is for the Vale army to pledge for Sansa to take back her birthright after she weds HtH. What other plan would Sansa have at the moment that would involve the Vale army? And bear in mind that this would necessitate her going along with Sweetrobin's demise. Also, as far I know, LF hasn't presented himself as Harry's most trusted advisor at all. Instead he's positioning Harry as a pawn whom Sansa can easily charm while he retains the image of the cunning sophisticate with her best interest at heart.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we should also keep in mind LF's own motivations. At this point, the most important thing for Baelish is that Sansa remain a maiden, so his attacks will never endanger that part of his plans as long as this element remains vital to the annulment of her marriage to Tyrion. As for what you're suggesting Sansa might do in order to lull him into a false sense of security, her lack of verbal and overt resistance to his advances is already doing that. Sansa's marriage protects her and gives Baelish incentive to protect her at the moment. I believe she recognizes this. I hope I'm making sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we should also keep in mind LF's own motivations. At this point, the most important thing for Baelish is that Sansa remain a maiden, so his attacks will never endanger that part of his plans as long as this element remains vital to the annulment of her marriage to Tyrion. As for what you're suggesting Sansa might do in order to lull him into a false sense of security, her lack of verbal and overt resistance to his advances is already doing that. Sansa's marriage protects her and gives Baelish incentive to protect her at the moment. I believe she recognizes this. I hope I'm making sense.

Perfect sense AV. While I personally don't believe LF is planning to go the "maidenhead" route to secure Sansa's annulment, the point on how she's already using a "lack of verbal and overt resistance" to his overtures is extremely important. I think this has often been read as Sansa "doing nothing" when instead it's that she's cognizant of not setting off any alarms. It's hard to read LF's mindset, but would he even want Sansa to come onto him, or does he instead prefer this pseudo father/daughter role play that he can control and exploit?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any scene where Sansa is involved in keeping Petyr's blood away from his brains is not something I want to read. Your question really hinges on a lot of things though. Right now the plan is for the Vale army to pledge for Sansa to take back her birthright after she weds HtH. What other plan would Sansa have at the moment that would involve the Vale army? And bear in mind that this would necessitate her going along with Sweetrobin's demise. Also, as far I know, LF hasn't presented himself as Harry's most trusted advisor at all. Instead he's positioning Harry as a pawn whom Sansa can easily charm while he retains the image of the cunning sophisticate with her best interest at heart.

If Baelish actually intends for Harry to inherit the Vale, it follows that his position of power will depend on Harry being dependent upon his advice. As to Sansa, perhaps a better use of the Vale's resources would be something like helping to feed the war-ravaged Riverlands through winter. That's just off the top of my head. My point is, if Sansa becomes a more direct influence on Harry than Baelish, perhaps she can push him toward actually ruling well, rather than just playing the game well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pod, I love your post

Rather than re-type it all, I will just revisit what I had put out there before. (I had stated 6 general possibilities for Sansa's future, roughly from worst case to best case scenarios):

I - The Caged Bird: We hope for Sansa to become more than what she has been, a girl with inner purpose and clear agency. However, maybe in the end, she just doesn't have it in her. She will never be more than a captive, her fate never really in her hands. She will not be a player, just a pawn. She simply may not have the cunning or the will to break free of her situation and be a true daughter of Winterfell. Maybe she will survive, but always live in grief and fear, singing empty songs devoid of meaning. Perhaps she will find a way to disappear into obscurity, hiding until the end of her days. Perhaps she will finally be bedded, and not by anyone she desires. Or perhaps she will remain chaste and lonely, until all possibility of achieving love and marriage are gone. This is the saddest or most disappointing possibility - a Red Wedding of the soul. In the end, we find out that Lady's death actually predicted perfectly what Sansa would be. She lost her wolf, and with that, she lost her future.

Maybe you mentioned this possibility then I am sorry:

About staying chaste and lonely: well, I personally will never see staying chaste as anyhow positive :) , but we have to think within that timesettting. Withdrawing to a remote place, either as septa or as a woman acquiring some other qualifications, somewhere in anonymity, would not be really sad. In our medieval ages entering a convent may have meant freedom for a girl from being forced into whatever loveless abuse and freedom to learn, become a healer, artist, gardener or a scribe, thus gaining some self respect through competence and being useful, not only a claim on legs. I can absolutely see that as remotely positive ending, this fits Sansa's ambitions far better than being a virginal QUEEN, Lady over War, life and death.

II - Lady Baelish: This is the best-case scenario for Petyr Baelish, his goal of converting her to his lady love is achieved. In the end, Sansa chooses him, maybe for love, maybe for pragmatism. They get married, they have babies. They both are players on the same team, and she acts as his willing accomplice. The House of Baelish is their legacy, built together into a new great house. How horrible or pleasant this is depends on one's subjective judgement, and maybe on a few developments we have not seen yet. Perhaps she is never the great game-player he is, but is a loyal and dutiful wife and content to be a good mother to their children. Or maybe she does become and excellent game-player, wicked and cunning, and together they bind Westeros to their will. (Perhaps even becoming the new royal house or marrying their kids into it.) For the Sansa we know, is this a defeat, or just the triumph of the adult game over childish dreams and ideals ? Nobody would much like it, but maybe a vexed fan base is just as valid as a content one.

Agree, this might happen. Although there might be some Baelish fans out there who have their reasons to like it, just like everyone in these forums has reasons for this and that like and dislike.

I for example would not rule out the possibility of Sansa staying, or better said, coming together with Tyrion out of free will though I am not sure if I like it. But this is definitely one of the seeds that might grow from the story. Both characters would have to develop quite a bit for me to find that satisfying, though Martin will hardly ask the opinion of you or me or anyone else in these forums. But then I have to admit that HBO Sansa, which I definitely prefer, somewhat overlaps book Sansa for me. I guess considering this plot development is as much hated in this thread, though not in the forums in general, as LF raping Sansa but, as I said, we all have different likes. We have no choice in which book character we love, paraphrasing the glorious villain Jaime. Another character love I'll burn in shitstorm hell for........ouch, and there is Cersei I like too.......

And there is the possibility of Sansa becoming a terrible beautiful Ice Queen like Galadriel if the latter had taken the ring, all will love her and despair. And in the end she may go down together with "evil". So far Sansa does not show the moral indifference neccessary though Martin definitely plays with the idea to give Sansa a dark turn, see Marillion and Sweetrobin, I won't talk about her baby sins in GOT. And I am not so sure if she is that competent, promising pupil of LF.

Sansa has a choice - everyone does - but that does not mean she will necessarily choose well. By all means let's hope Sansa does not end up as Littlefinger's web, but knowing what we know, this could be the "controversial" thing.

In the ASOIAF story, is this sort of painful let-down a rarity ? Sadly, no. "Good" does not always triumph over "evil". People live and die unfulfilled, or they make bad / compromised choices that poison their future, or maybe they just settle for less. It is realistic, which is why it would be credible or at least not impossible.

:agree:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know, Woman of War. While I do agree that GRRM is playing with the idea of a dark Sansa, he also sets up symbolic minders for the readers that give a more optimistic view of her inner life. The dog, the drifting snow, the howling wolf, etc.seem to point in a more hopeful direction for her sense of her identity and morality which are interconnected issues in my mind. Again, I hope I'm making sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, of course you are making sense.

And I did not want to suggest that Sansa's story inevitably will take a dark road or that she is doomed to end as evil character. If it were so predictable it would be boring anyways. No, I only meant that the possibility is there and cannot be neglected though I personally think, fanfiction, that her story may well take a darker turn, she may do awful things and bad things may happen to her, but that she will find her own identity on the road and not end as particularly dark, not even especially grey. But I can be totally wrong of course. And most great characters have some dark aspects in them. So far only Brienne and Pod are the exception since even good Davos may have killed and betrayed before the story sets in.

Her chapters are sometimes wonderful poetry but being "a Stark" does not protect any character from being evil, just like being Targaeryen or Lannister does not dye a character dark. They are all individuals before they are part of a group, individually responsible for what they do, in Martinworld no one is safe from corruption, neither Starks nor Tyrells or Greyjoys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...