From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIX

[brashcandy]

New Poster here.

I have to say that I don't think Sansa has progressed much, she is still almost the same naive girl. Mentor or no Mentor I just don't feel it to be realistic to make her into a player in such a short time. In a year she might be closer to Margery but nowhere near LF, Varys or even Cersei. Unless GRRM makes a 5-6 year leap forward in time it won't work for me but as far as I understand those plans were scrapped.

Welcome to the forum :) In addition to what Fender has already noted, I'd like to clarify that on the Pawn to Player thread we use the term "player" to denote Sansa's quest for agency and self-fulfillment. So the emphasis is not on the traditional game playing strategies that we've come to expect from men like LF and Varys, but rather on her being able to achieve an autonomous future for herself - one where she is not being exploited or under another person's control. To be clear: we're not ruling out Sansa playing the game, and learning how to manipulate and strategize - obviously these things may be necessary given the situation she's in - but we're looking at the bigger picture, so to speak. This then involves an analysis of the role Sansa might eventually play in the song of ice and fire, not strictly the game of thrones, as Martin seems to be pulling all the Stark children back into the events surrounding Winter and the North. If we look at incidents like the snow castle scene, consider the prophecy by the Ghost of High Heart, and Sansa's hearing of a ghost wolf when she's descending the Eyrie, there's compelling reason to believe that her future arc is not going to be limited to mentorship by Littlefinger.

And no, Sansa is definitely not the same naive girl she once was. If you're interested in further insight on this, you can check out the original reread threads which are provided in the OP, as well as the resource links where you'll find solid critical analyses.

[Newstar]

The years of careful planning are over, quick thinking and influence are the rules of the game now. It's easy to imagine Baelish creating an opening and Sansa taking advantage of it in this context.

I'm sure it will all be clear in hindsight once (if?) all the books are published, but I'm curious as to what was supposed to have happened during the five-year gap. Would it have worked out that post-gap Sansa's story would start up again roughly in Alayne's last POV in AFFC: Sansa is still masquerading as Alayne, Sweetrobin is still alive, Littlefinger has supposedly arranged a match between Harry the Heir and Sansa, on your marks, get set, go, etc. etc. However, it looks like as of ADWD, Rickon, Bran and Arya are still stuck in the arcs that would have been covered during the "gap": Rickon's still in Skagos, Bran is still training with Bloodraven, and Arya's still training to become one of the FM. Are there developments still to come in Sansa's arc that were intended to occur "off-screen" during the gap?

Trying to puzzle out what would have happened during the five-year gap in Sansa's arc makes me wonder. Assuming Sweetrobin was meant to survive the gap period, it seems strange to me that sickly as he is, Sweetrobin would have survived for five more years, unless Littlefinger started his poisoning quite late in the game. It also seems strange that the Lords Declarant would have put up with Littlefinger swanning around like he owned the joint for five whole years unless Littlefinger mollified them pretty quickly; maybe over the period covered by the gap, GRRM originally planned that the Lords Declarant would be dealt with in short order, leaving Littlefinger to maneuver freely for five years.

[greensleeves]

Speaking of Ser Shadrich and the connection Newstar has pointed out between Varys and LittIefinger's respective plans, I found it interesting that just as Tyrion has somehow derailed Varys and Illyrio's plans for Dany and Aegon, the Mad Mouse might serve a similar function. He might not have to actually kidnap or even attempt to kidnap Sansa in order to keep the parallel.

Other parallels,

- Varys has Tyrion spirited away, LF has Sansa spirited away both by water

- Varys and LF both seem to have a vested interest in Cersei's eventual downfall and are, in fact, working towards that end

-Aegon and the mysterious tapestries seem to indicate a Targaryen parallel

-there is also a sort of parallel in Varys and LF's connections across the Narrow Sea, with Pentos and Braavos respectively (other than LF having a Braavosi heritage, its also interesting how he put the Iron Throne in debt to the Iron Bank in Braavos and also had Penny and her brother brought over from Braavos for Joff's wedding)

-Penny is originally an LF piece and has now appeared in Tyrion's storyline while Shadrich, possibly a Varys piece has now turned up in Sansa's location

- also, since there has been speculation in this thread about Littlefinger possibly being Sweetrobin's father, there is an interesting parallel in Illyrio possibly being Aegon's father

If Varys and LF are running toward a confrontation, it might be that so are Sansa and Tyrion. On the other hand, these parallels might mean something else entirely.

On a separate note, I was re-reading Davos' run-in with Godric Borrell and realised that the lords of the Three Sisters are vassals of the Arryns. IIRC, these islands are near the Fingers. This may have implications later, or not, but I thought it was an intriguing piece of information.

This reminds me a bit of a comparison Ragnorak half-way put forward in the Tyrion re-read. In this one, the parallel is drawn between Littlefinger and Illyrio. Ragnorak references a post by tze comparing Varys to Bloodraven.

http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry4141999

[brashcandy]

Thanks for that link greensleeves. Reading a little further on, Rag states this:

In the Varys/Bloodraven case there are a lot of things that, especially when looked at together, seem to indicate an intentional contrast on Martin's part. Sansa was smuggled out of KL on a boat by LF and given a bastard name and a fake identity as LF's daughter. Tyrion is smuggled out by boat as well to an Illyrio with a good deal of parental imagery and gets a bastard name as well. Some of that seems to be parallels in Tyrion/Sansa but LF and Illyrio play the same roles in those parallels. The similarities are there but do they rise to the level of an intentional compare/contrast by Martin?

I think the parallels are definitely interesting. If we consider that Sansa is an emerging player and not simply another marriage pawn for LF to direct at will, then she'll likely be implementing some of her own moves as we see Tyrion doing in ADWD. But whereas Tyrion's moral compass is firmly pointed in the direction of Casterly Rock as Lummel so aptly points out, Sansa's motivations have never been about railroading everyone and everything for a chance at home - as LF is offering. It's another reason why Sweetrobin may have a fighting chance.

[Lady Arya's Song]

I am really enjoying the rereads on Sansa, Thank you to Milady of York and everyone else who contribute so much to these rereads. I normally lurk and do not post much.

I am trying to catch up on all the posts so forgive me if this has already been covered or is not proper but since this is Sansa and the discussion has touched on the hints in the book regarding her views on who is handsome I wondered if somewhere in a previous thread if you all had discussed the prologue in ADWD regarding Sandor and Varaymer's connections with Thistle and Sansa parallels? I just happened to be reading this the other day and it occurred to me that GRRM has written Sansa, Arya and Sandor parallels with Varamyr and Thistle. The second life of Varamyr might include hints about Sansa and our friend on the Quiet Isle. I hope I have not strayed too far off topic but Varamyr crying out for Thistle when he was wounded and really reminded me of Sandor and Sansa. When he says " I should have taken her before she left". I was reminded of Sandor's words to Arya when he spoke of Sansa and the Imp' marriage when he was wounded.

I confess I am hoping Sansa and Sandor have a future meeting so I was hoping someone who is much better than I am had read that prologue and found some connections and has shared them.

[brashcandy]

Hmmm, could you elaborate a little further on what exactly you mean, LAS? I don't remember the ADWD prologue all that well, but I know we get some information on the ethics of warging and so on, and that Vararmyr was considering inhabiting Thistle's body. That's obviously different from what Sandor was lamenting, which was that he should have taken Sansa away from the city. So yeah, some further clarification would be nice :)

[Fire Eater]

I think I know how the Mad Mouse will come into play.

While everyone agrees the story of Bael the Bard is foreshadowing for R+L=J, it is also foreshadowing for Sansa and LF. You can find the name "Bael" in Baelish. Bael took a Stark girl from Lord Stark and left a rose in her place. Baelish took a Stark girl, Sansa, from the Lannisters, and left a rose, Margaery Tyrell, in her place.

The story ends with Bael's natural son killing him, so we can surmise that LF's demise will be at the hands of his "natural daughter", Alayne.

In ADWD Chapter 28, Melisandre told Jon:

"I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse".

Jon thought the girl was Arya, and in the later chapters it turned out to be Alys Karstark. However,Alys appeared in a black cloak while in the fire was "a girl in grey". Usually in predicts the colors have their symbolism. Here, not only Alys clothing wasn't grey, but the color for House Karstarks wasn't grey. Grey is the color for House Stark of Winterfell. Don't forget that besides Arya, Jon has the other sister, who was in Vale and Littlefinger just arranged her marriage with Harry the Heir. In Littlefinger's plan, Sansa would "come out with her long auburn hair, clad in a maiden’s cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back".

After Sansa kills LF, she will still have to marry d-bag, Harry the Heir, with Lady Waynwodd and Harry insisting. I think that is when she takes a horse and rides off, only to be snuck up on by the Mad Mouse and captured like Sandor did with Arya. The Mad Mouse will have Sansa bound by her hands at least, and delivered to KL to Cersei.

[Lady Arya's Song]

Sorry BrashCandy I will post some lines from the prologue.

I wish I understood more how to post properly in these threads..I am still trying to learn how to edit and just use the pc. Very pc illiterate

Prologue in ADWD Varamyr

Varamyr is thinking about his prior life while he is lying wounded. He remembers his dogs being hit in the head with axes when he was younger..ie his childhood.

He remembers that at one time he had gold and was feared as a warrior, and ate near the king " Mance". But its all been taken away because he became "craven" at the battle at the Wall and he ran..it was fire and he was burned. He reflects on this with shame. Later, he reflects back that he was wounded by a young boy name Squirrel who attacked him because he was trying to take a cloak from Squirrel's dead mother.

He says " I burned and I died and then I ran, half mad with pain and terror.".

A spear wife Thistle is trying to heal him. She is trying to attend to his wounds. " Thistle he called out, his voice hoarse and edged with pain. " Thistle". Martin then gives a description of Thistle...the inverse of Sansa who is beautiful ..Thistle is not comely but she is there with Varamyr trying to help him. The similarity to the need Varamyr is expressing is very similar to Sandor's anguish over Sansa.

Thistle tells him to "Wait...I'll be back with food". He thinks I should have taken her before she left. (Wouldn't this be nice if its foreshadowing that Sansa will be back in his life again ...much older and more mature.)

He thinks about dogs and wolves and how wolves and women wed for life. " You take one, thats a marriage .The wolf is part of you and you're part of him. Both of you will change.

He is now lying down and snowflakes are melting in his brow. He has a fever due to the wound in his thigh. He thinks let me sleep and never wake, let me begin my second life.

He recalls his mother. "She weeps for Bump, but she never wept for me. " Later Thistle does return and he attempts to take her with disasterous results...her death and his. I hope this is not foreshadowing Sansa and Sandor, Martin does invert a story line..so we can hope.

This is very similar to Sandor Clegane. His younger life being hurt by an older brother. The axe is a hint to Sandor hitting Arya in the back of the head. Dogs are invovled in Varaymr's story arch and also in Sandors.

Arya who is traveling with Sandor to try to find her mother is taken for a boy and she is also called a "squirrel". She has thought and tried to kill Sandor with a knife.

Sandor reflects on being burned and being craven and fleeing KL with his gold ( at one time he was near the king and feared by other warriors but he has lost it all. He is wounded and he is suffering from PTSD and he is suffering from his physical wounds, and fever.

He is talking about Sansa and how he should have taken her before he left KL rather than see her married to the Imp. He reflects on Sansa fleeing. ( Thistle also left Varamyr) He finally breaks down and admits that Sansa never gave him a song..he took it.

I am not very good at this but emotionally when I read the complete prologue of Varamyr I kept getting vibes of Arya, her mother Catelyn..her death..the fact that Arya in a childish way blamed Sandor for not saving her mother and also for hitting her with the axe. Then we have Sansa and Sandor symbols in Varamyr's prologue. Certain words, certain phrases..the added detail that Martin is giving us regarding the mating with a wolf..which changes you forever and is like a marriage.

Certainly Sandor has been changed forever due to Sansa and her trying to heal him with touch and song.

Varamyr might be speaking about physically warging into a wolf but I came away thinking of Sansa and Sandor ..she is a wolf girl and Sandor has been changed by her. Martin brought of marriage and the second life in Varamyr's prologue but I also saw this in a spiritual way with Sandor and Sansa the wolf girl.

I for one would love for Sandor to have a second life married to a wolf girl and in the process they both are changed.

I wish I was better at this indepth analysis. :) I just was commenting on the emotional vibes I noticed when reading the prologue and I noticed symbols and similarities and perhaps some important foreshadowing involving Sansa and Sandor in this prologue. I am hoping those who are much more talented than I am will reread the prologue and be able to express it much better than my poor attempts. My eye sight is poor so please excuse any mistakes I have made in spelling or grammar.

[Pod The Impaler]

Care to share with the rest of the class? :D

Is it this (from the TWOW thread)?

I think that would be controversial on a level over and above something that "might" cause controversy in "some quarters of the fandom," though, especially given the abusive, manipulative nature of the relationship. It's also tricky to use the word "willing" in this context; Littlefinger's done such a number on Sansa--classic grooming behaviour--that consent under such circumstances would be meaningless.

Not to say it could never happen. It just seems like the sort of thing that would be a lot more controversial than what Ran implied.

Yes, it is that. One possible future - his seduction is successful, and she becomes what he wants: his wife, lover, co-conspirator, etc.

When you look at the last thing written in the last Sansa chapter, it doesn't rule it out.

[Akal Colzet]

Welcome to the forum :) In addition to what Fender has already noted, I'd like to clarify that on the Pawn to Player thread we use the term "player" to denote Sansa's quest for agency and self-fulfillment. So the emphasis is not on the traditional game playing strategies that we've come to expect from men like LF and Varys, but rather on her being able to achieve an autonomous future for herself - one where she is not being exploited or under another person's control. To be clear: we're not ruling out Sansa playing the game, and learning how to manipulate and strategize - obviously these things may be necessary given the situation she's in - but we're looking at the bigger picture, so to speak. This then involves an analysis of the role Sansa might eventually play in the song of ice and fire, not strictly the game of thrones, as Martin seems to be pulling all the Stark children back into the events surrounding Winter and the North. If we look at incidents like the snow castle scene, consider the prophecy by the Ghost of High Heart, and Sansa's hearing of a ghost wolf when she's descending the Eyrie, there's compelling reason to believe that her future arc is not going to be limited to mentorship by Littlefinger.

And no, Sansa is definitely not the same naive girl she once was. If you're interested in further insight on this, you can check out the original reread threads which are provided in the OP, as well as the resource links where you'll find solid critical analyses.

Thanks. Well if you put it like that I can see you point although I don't fully agree. Maybe it's because to me player=schemer/strategist in political and military situations and has nothing to do with a personal journey so to speak.

[Karmarni]

I had thought that the parallels in Varys' vs. LF's plotting matched--in so far as they "matched" anyone--Aegon and Sansa. For Aegon, the fake parent and the chessmaster are different people (JonCon and Varys, respectively), as opposed to Sansa, for whom they're the same. JonCon seems to lack Littlefinger's sexual interest in his charge (although I guess that could change), and his love for Aegon's dead parent (Rhaegar) comes off as a bit more genuine than Littlefinger's supposed love for Cat. However, there are other similarities, which have been canvassed on other threads, between Aegon and Sansa, aside from the "fake identity with someone who loved my parent posing as my father" parallel, which seems pretty darn specific: the dyed hair concealing a giveaway trademark unusual family hair colour (Targaryen silver/Tully auburn), for one. Of course, Aegon may not be what he believes he "truly" is (a Targ), whereas Sansa is Stark to her bones, but the parallels seem quite strong. It doesn't mean that they'll be paired in any other sense, or even that they'll meet (although if Sansa winds up going back to KL for whatever reason, it seems almost certain that their paths will cross), but it seems like Aegon and Sansa mirror each other when it comes to LF and Varys' plots.

Lyanna Stark: I've wondered some why in the show Sansa is wearing Dragonfly motifs so often, when she has no connection to dragonflies or dragons.

From:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80323-from-pawn-to-player-rethinking-sansa-xviii/page__st__280#entry4169085

I know we're not to mention the hbo show unless it's relevant, and I'm hoping this might count. I think Newstar is on the money here and perhaps this is the nod to the dragonfly motif in Sansa's costuming?

[brashcandy]

I wish I was better at this indepth analysis. :) I just was commenting on the emotional vibes I noticed when reading the prologue and I noticed symbols and similarities and perhaps some important foreshadowing involving Sansa and Sandor in this prologue. I am hoping those who are much more talented than I am will reread the prologue and be able to express it much better than my poor attempts. My eye sight is poor so please excuse any mistakes I have made in spelling or grammar.

Ah, thank you for explaining further, LAS :) I get where you're coming from on the chapter giving some emotional shades of Sandor and Sansa, and what you say on the second life makes sense, considering that now the Hound is dead, and Sandor Clegane is at rest, according to the Elder Brother. I'm also reminded of King Robert's statement about Sansa being happier with a dog - which is accepted as foreshadowing of her relationship with Sandor, and coming to trust and depend on him, as she would her direwolf. There's also marriage symbolism in their relationship as well, with the cloak exchanges and the unkiss, so it could indeed be a permanent kind of bond, akin to what Varamyr mentions.

Yes, it is that. One possible future - his seduction is successful, and she becomes what he wants: his wife, lover, co-conspirator, etc.

When you look at the last thing written in the last Sansa chapter, it doesn't rule it out.

You mean LF continuing to impose himself on Sansa when she tries to draw clear boundaries? If the end of the chapter doesn't rule it out, it certainly doesn't support anything either. I confess to being at a loss to see how Martin could credibly introduce this development.

[greensleeves]

From:

http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry4169085

I know we're not to mention the hbo show unless it's relevant, and I'm hoping this might count. I think Newstar is on the money here and perhaps this is the nod to the dragonfly motif in Sansa's costuming?

When you compare Littlefinger's plots with Varys and Illyrios' there are several Sansa parallels that can be drawn: Sansa and Tyrion, Sansa and Aegon, Sansa and Dany.

For me the Sansa and Dany parallels are currently some of the most powerful. At the end of AFFC, Sansa's position is very reminiscent of Dany's at the beginning of AGOT. They are both being married off for political purposes while being secretly desired by those doing the selling. Sansa is 'currently' the same age that Dany was then. Dany was starting to show signs of a weird relationship with fire; I think Sansa is starting to show a weird relationship with ice.

I don't think any of these Sansa parallels is strong or clear enough to discount the others, however. (At least not in my mind; maybe I'll see some analysis that sways me differently.)

I am *definitely* not convinced that the Aegon Sansa parallels we've seen thus far are enough to justify the dragonfly wardrobe motif.

[Newstar]

Yes, it is that. One possible future - his seduction is successful, and she becomes what he wants: his wife, lover, co-conspirator, etc.

When you look at the last thing written in the last Sansa chapter, it doesn't rule it out.

You mean LF continuing to impose himself on Sansa when she tries to draw clear boundaries?

She tried to draw clear boundaries about his marriage plans for her in her last POV; that's when the fear/panic set in, and not before. She had no such concerns when he kissed her, drew her on to his lap, or when he "kissed her for a long time."

If the end of the chapter doesn't rule it out, it certainly doesn't support anything either. I confess to being at a loss to see how Martin could credibly introduce this development.

Really? You don't look at the last Alayne POV, Littlefinger's increasingly sexual/romantic gestures towards Sansa (kissing her wrist, pulling her into his lap, kissing her for a long time), Sansa's level of comfort with these gestures, and her ambiguous "blush" when he tells her to "do better" the next time she kisses him, and see anything troubling or worrisome about that? I'm kind of at a loss as to why you would be at a loss to see how this might pose a problem.

Sansa has no discernible negative reaction to Littlefinger's intimacies now in her internal reactions to him; she won't initiate anything (she kisses him dutifully), but she doesn't seem to mind or even notice when he draws her on to his lap and kisses her wrist, or when he touched her breast earlier in AFFC (there's no hint of discomfort or reluctance in her inner POV monologue). Her only reaction when he kisses her "for a long time" in a very unfatherly way is to blush when he tells her to do better next time, a rather ambiguous reaction as I said; Sansa blushed, I think, when Myranda was making her squirm with bawdy gossip, but Sansa also blushed when Myranda praised her beauty and courage, so the "blush" could just as easily indicate pleasure as embarrassment or discomfort (and I think GRRM has left this ambiguous for a reason).

It's a pretty far cry from AGOT, where Sansa was aware that there was something predatory about the way Littlefinger looked at her, or even ASOS, where her reaction after Littlefinger kissed her and made other overtures was to think that Lothor Brune was not around to save her (linking the rape threat from Marillion with Littlefinger's actions). Either truly she feels discomfort and sees the red flags in Littlefinger's conduct on some level in AFFC and is choosing to ignore it, of which there seems to be very little evidence (her concern with "Littlefinger" as opposed to Petyr when going over how he was "no friend" was that he seemed sinister and hadn't done anything for her, not that she perceived a sexual threat from him), or Littlefinger has successfully gotten her to the point where she is completely comfortable with his behaviour.

I've seen it suggested that Littlefinger is just grooming Sansa to accept the occasional kiss while not intending anything more, but the whole point of pedophiles/abusers grooming their victims is to inure them to the abuser's advances so that they will not object when the abuser attempts some form of sexual contact. I think it very likely that Littlefinger is going to keep pushing the envelope, much as he was in the last Alayne AFFC.

Also, there does seem to be a noticeable uptick in Alayne's last POV of sexual references. It could just point to a sexual awakening-type arc for Sansa that is relatively benign and based on truly consensual interactions and not anything creepy or involving Littlefinger, but it could also foreshadow something more sinister, as the sexual references occur in a chapter where Littlefinger touches Sansa in a sexual/romantic way as a lover and not a father. There's no indication that she takes any issue with this at all, as she has no negative reaction in her thoughts. I might not find it as strange if Sansa hadn't had such strong negative reactions to Littlefinger in previous books, which have now altogether disappeared.

[PhoenixFlame]

Heya, new poster to these threads! Nothing much to contribute at the moment, but I wanted to say I love this gargantuan topic. Sansa is one of my three favorite characters--I get really irritated when people say she's a stupid little girl. I'm typically drawn much more to darker characters, but Sansa's so fascinating. Sometimes she reminds me of an Angela Carter story, heh.

[brashcandy]

Heya, new poster to these threads! Nothing much to contribute at the moment, but I wanted to say I love this gargantuan topic. Sansa is one of my three favorite characters--I get really irritated when people say she's a stupid little girl. I'm typically drawn much more to darker characters, but Sansa's so fascinating. Sometimes she reminds me of an Angela Carter story, heh.

Welcome to the thread PheonixFlame! The Angela Carter connection is spot on too, and I've done some analyses on her stories for our ongoing Beauty and the Beast project that you can find in the Resource section.

She tried to draw clear boundaries about his marriage plans for her in her last POV; that's when the fear/panic set in, and not before. She had no such concerns when he kissed her, drew her on to his lap, or when he "kissed her for a long time."

So we need Sansa to verbalize explicitly in her POV that she's uncomfortable with LF's kisses or touches every time it happens? At which point was that not made clear from the very first book when she was thoroughly disconcerted by his gazes, or in the snow castle scene when she pulls away from him, invokes their father-daughter relationship and then decides to go see her aunt to be sent away from the Eyrie? Sansa resolved in her first chapter of AFFC to feed LF lies and arbor gold, and to pretend to be the obedient daughter he wants since it is serving to protect her. We have every reason to believe based on clear textual evidence that she is not comfortable with the overtures he is making.

Really? You don't look at the last Alayne POV, Littlefinger's increasingly sexual/romantic gestures towards Sansa (kissing her wrist, pulling her into his lap, kissing her for a long time), Sansa's level of comfort with these gestures, and her ambiguous "blush" when he tells her to "do better" the next time she kisses him, and see anything troubling or worrisome about that? I'm kind of at a loss as to why you would be at a loss to see how this might pose a problem.

I see LF's increasing sexual gestures, but once again, I am baffled that anyone assumes Sansa is getting "comfortable" with this kind of behaviour, and that it would lead her to accepting this man as a lover. I am worried about LF as a pervert and an abuser, yes, and that he might force himself on her, but I'm not worried that Sansa is going to fall for him.

Sansa has no discernible negative reaction to Littlefinger's intimacies now in her internal reactions to him; she won't initiate anything (she kisses him dutifully), but she doesn't seem to mind or even notice when he draws her on to his lap and kisses her wrist, or when he touched her breast earlier in AFFC (there's no hint of discomfort or reluctance in her inner POV monologue). Her only reaction when he kisses her "for a long time" in a very unfatherly way is to blush when he tells her to do better next time, a rather ambiguous reaction as I said; Sansa blushed, I think, when Myranda was making her squirm with bawdy gossip, but Sansa also blushed when Myranda praised her beauty and courage, so the "blush" could just as easily indicate pleasure as embarrassment or discomfort (and I think GRRM has left this ambiguous for a reason).

Sansa is playing as Alayne Stone. Right now, that requires her to play along with LF and to not give away her discomfort with these types of gestures. But we see signs that she hasn't been able to bury her identity of Sansa as she thinks is necessary. She wonders about Jon Snow, thinks about Sandor, hears a ghost wolf. Instead of retreating into what LF wants to make her, she's moving closer to her own ties, and away from him. No discernible negative reaction doesn't mean that she's enjoying what is happening by any stretch of the imagination.

I've seen it suggested that Littlefinger is just grooming Sansa to accept the occasional kiss while not intending anything more, but the whole point of pedophiles/abusers grooming their victims is to inure them to the abuser's advances so that they will not object when the abuser attempts some form of sexual contact. I think it very likely that Littlefinger is going to keep pushing the envelope, much as he was in the last Alayne AFFC.

Except the circumstances are no longer ideal, (if they ever were) for LF's grooming techniques. For one, there is real life and activity at the Gates of the Moon. It would be very hard for LF to get Sansa alone for long periods of time as would have happened at the Eyrie, and his attempts to emotionally isolate her have not worked, and aren't likely to work now that she'll be around others, and is showing signs of returning to her old self.

Also, there does seem to be a noticeable uptick in Alayne's last POV of sexual references. It could just point to a sexual awakening-type arc for Sansa that is relatively benign and based on truly consensual interactions and not anything creepy or involving Littlefinger, but it could also foreshadow something more sinister, as the sexual references occur in a chapter where Littlefinger touches Sansa in a sexual/romantic way as a lover and not a father. There's no indication that she takes any issue with this at all, as she has no negative reaction in her thoughts. I might not find it as strange if Sansa hadn't had such strong negative reactions to Littlefinger in previous books, which have now altogether disappeared.

As I noted above, Sansa is having to deal with the devil for the time being, but there is substantive evidence which shows she will be breaking away in TWOW. When she imagined that she still had a caring aunt, or when she was with her family in KL, we see her real thoughts about LF made perfectly clear. But LF made sure to implicate her in his crimes and make her believe that he was the only one looking out for her interests. To show outright displeasure to his advances isn't in her best interests if she believes this man practically holds her life in his hands. And yes, Martin doesn't "tell" it to readers at this stage because we aren't meant to see her rebellion coming so plainly.

[PhoenixFlame]

Welcome to the thread PheonixFlame! The Angela Carter connection is spot on too, and I've done some analyses on her stories for our ongoing Beauty and the Beast project that you can find in the Resource section.

Oooh! I love Angela Carter so I'll definitely check this out.

As for her supposed compliance being a sign that she could fall for him, I beg to differ, and very much. Actually, in a grooming scenario, it's precisely to protect themselves from the abuser that victims may resort to this behaviour, which is called false compliance, because the groomer skillfully works at increasing his control by making them too conscious of not angering him and not showing any signs of rejection or a behaviour that the groomer considers suspicious, as a means of self-protection against more unpleasant advances.

Agreed. I thought it was very clear Sansa is squicked by his advances. She might not be thinking along the lines of To Catch a Littlefinger, but she's no fool. She recognizes her situation is precarious and will numbly/unhappily put up with it. If he gets more forward in TWOW, it'll be interesting to see how she reacts. Well, interesting is probably the wrong word, but y'all know what I mean.

Oh, Milady of York, I really like your essay on Sandor's swordfighting. It's fascinating to analyze different parts of his character...and I squeed when your reenactor friend gave a thumb's up regarding his wound recovery.

I'm curious about y'all's opinion. Do you think Martin consciously puts all these nuances and references into his work, or is it something mostly unconscious, perhaps starting with a basic idea, and the richness of the text is the result of someone who is well-read and interested in a lot of topics?

[brashcandy]

Oooh! I love Angela Carter so I'll definitely check this out.

And another member is planning an essay looking at Carter's Bloody Chamber story based on the Bluebeard tale, and how it relates to Littlefinger (no pressure Mahaut ;) )

I think I know how the Mad Mouse will come into play.

While everyone agrees the story of Bael the Bard is foreshadowing for R+L=J, it is also foreshadowing for Sansa and LF. You can find the name "Bael" in Baelish. Bael took a Stark girl from Lord Stark and left a rose in her place. Baelish took a Stark girl, Sansa, from the Lannisters, and left a rose, Margaery Tyrell, in her place.

The story ends with Bael's natural son killing him, so we can surmise that LF's demise will be at the hands of his "natural daughter", Alayne.

After Sansa kills LF, she will still have to marry d-bag, Harry the Heir, with Lady Waynwodd and Harry insisting. I think that is when she takes a horse and rides off, only to be snuck up on by the Mad Mouse and captured like Sandor did with Arya. The Mad Mouse will have Sansa bound by her hands at least, and delivered to KL to Cersei.

This is interesting FE. I'm not convinced about Sansa being the girl on the grey horse, and I don't see the Mad Mouse being able to take her back to KL successfully, but it's a fresh scenario nevertheless. I definitely think the Bael/Baelish connection is relevant.

[PhoenixFlame]

And another member is planning an essay looking at Carter's Bloody Chamber story based on the Bluebeard tale, and how it relates to Littlefinger (no pressure Mahaut ;) )

Brashcandy, I read your Angela Carter essay. Love it!! Lysa + sexual nirvana in the same sentence made me :ack: , but everything else had me nose-to-screen. People say that Sansa has no agency but I really disagree. She's not in a fairytale so obviously she can't start tearing people's clothes off (well...). She takes her strength more subtly and internally, but it's there, and it's growing. I also like that your Tyrion example highlighted another one of Sansa's strengths--she can really "get" people. She's barely ever spoken with Tyrion but she's able to read him point blank, even though she's scared.

Ooooh, Carter's Bluebeard story is one of my favorites of hers. Can't wait to read a Littlefinger essay.

[Mahaut]

And another member is planning an essay looking at Carter's Bloody Chamber story based on the Bluebeard tale, and how it relates to Littlefinger (no pressure Mahaut ;) )

Pressure? What pressure :D? Jokes apart, I really hope it will live up to your expectations.

Ooooh, Carter's Bluebeard story is one of my favorites of hers. Can't wait to read a Littlefinger essay.

I'm currently working on an essay about knighthood in Sansa's storyline. But I'll start working on Carter's Bluebeard as soon as possible ;) .