R+L=J v.44

[Ruby Chevrolet]

atpthornton said:

Actually the ages of the boys matter because it excludes several of the offered possibilites for Jon's mother. Jon had to have been conceived immediately before or shortly after Ned and Cat's wedding. As there is no textual evidence for a second Harranhal, it means that neither the fisherman's daughter (who was said to have been left behind so no she didn't follow Ned) nor Ashara (she may not have been nailed down but I do not see Ned getting to Harranhal because he is the enemy of House Whent at that point, so it is more that it was extremely unlikley that HE would be there not her) are Jon's mother.

ETA: If in fact the Whents were on the rebells' side (the KG connection made me think they were with the Targs) - then it is equally unlikely that Ashara would have been able to get into Harranhal as she was on the enemy's side.

My point was that it does not matter if the Ashara-Eddard tryst at Harrenhal happened shortly before or shortly after the Eddard-Catelyn marriage at Harrenhal. Either way, the Ashara-Eddard child (Jon Snow) would be, as you say, around the same age as Robb Stark.

Assumng Jon was conceived around the same time as Robb (shortly before or shortly after Robb) cannot eliminate either Ashara or the fisherman's daughter as a possible mother for Jon. It merely requires that either Ashara or the fisherman's daughter was at the same place as Eddard shortly before or shortly after Eddard's wedding to Catelyn.

I have suggested here that Ashara and Eddard could very easily have met at Harrenhal at the right time. The textual evidence for this is abundant, starting with the fact that half the realm, including Eddard's wife (who spent a lot of time obsessing about this) thinks the timing is possible and running through the fact that we know Eddard was in the Riverlands (near Harrenhal) at the relevant time and culminating with Barristan Selmy thinking that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenal (he says "at Harrenhal", not "at Harrenhal during the tournament").

For that matter, the fisherman's daughter cannot be ruled out based on timing either. The book says Eddard left her with a bastard in her belly and a bag of silver. It does not say where or when he left her.

A few of us think he took her from Harrenhal, but after the tournament. We know that Dayne and Whent helped him out and Harrenhal was Whent's home. He knows the place and the area. The Whents were going to be Lyanna's in-laws, and they had a daughter who was probably around her age. It made sense for her to stay there and become socialized in the south and wait until Brandon and Catelyn's wedding instead of trekking all the way back up north only to turn around and come back. It also provides two possible modes of marriage: Septon Meribald on his circuit, and the weirwoods on the Isle of Faces.

This one made me chuckle a bit. It is, of course, possible, since the where and how of this are shrouded in mystery. But there is far less textual evidence for this "second Harrenhal" than there is for the Ashara-Eddard "second Harrenhal."

[Ygrain]

My point was that it does not matter if the Ashara-Eddard tryst at Harrenhal happened shortly before or shortly after the Eddard-Catelyn marriage at Harrenhal. Either way, the Ashara-Eddard child (Jon Snow) would be, as you say, around the same age as Robb Stark.

It does. The conversation with Robert, when Ned claims that he dishonoured himself as well as Catelyn who was with his child at that time revolves around his supposed infidelity to his wife, not the birth of his bastard, and therefore sets, by Ned’s own words, the act of infidelity until AFTER his marriage with Catelyn.

Assumng Jon was conceived around the same time as Robb (shortly before or shortly after Robb) cannot eliminate either Ashara or the fisherman's daughter as a possible mother for Jon. It merely requires that either Ashara or the fisherman's daughter was at the same place as Eddard shortly before or shortly after Eddard's wedding to Catelyn.

As for before, see above, as for after, I would like to remind that we have yet to see Lord Eddard besmirching his honour for anything else than a family member in danger. Even the presence of Miss Westeros at the right place at the right time still doesn’t mean that he would have had something with her.

I have suggested here that Ashara and Eddard could very easily have met at Harrenhal at the right time. The textual evidence for this is abundant, starting with the fact that half the realm, including Eddard's wife (who spent a lot of time obsessing about this) thinks the timing is possible and running through the fact that we know Eddard was in the Riverlands (near Harrenhal) at the relevant time and culminating with Barristan Selmy thinking that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenal (he says "at Harrenhal", not "at Harrenhal during the tournament").

Excuse me but the words “abundant” and “evidence” mean something else than you present.

Catelyn doesn’t know what, when, where and with whom her husband was doing during the war every hour of every days, and about Ashara, she knows even less. She has no clue about any other woman in Eddard’s life, and Ashara’s is the only name she has ever heard, therefore she is on the list of “suspects” but even Catelyn herself doesn’t put a definite equal between “Ashara” and “Jon’s mother”.

Eddard being in Riverlands is in no way a piece of evidence that he ever set foot in Harrenhall since the tourney, and Harrenhall being “near” Riverrun still means several days’ journey and a completely unnecessary detour.

As for Barristan, when thinking about the tourney, relating to things that happened at the tourney, saying “at Harrenhall” instead of “at the tourney of Harrenhall” is a completely common elipsis, similarly as one would say “in London” instead of “at the OG in London” when it’s clear from the context that OG are being discussed. Actually, if he spoke about two different events at Harrenhall, he would have actually said so, to make a distinction between the two events, similarly as a person talking about their stay in London during the OG and a year later would.

For that matter, the fisherman's daughter cannot be ruled out based on timing either. The book says Eddard left her with a bastard in her belly and a bag of silver. It does not say where or when he left her.

The fact that she transported him somewhere and he supposedly left her with a bastard and silver does not offer any clue for her going along with him and then coming back, and neither does anything else. The meeting happened during Eddard’s journey north to call his banners and pick his own men from Winterfell, e.g. fresh after the start of the Rebellion but way prior his marriage to Catelyn, yet the Winterfell staff has no idea about a fishergirl who came along with him and stayed well until the marriage?

The fishergirl is nothing else but the variation on the Ashara story: people trying to pin Ned with some woman.

This one made me chuckle a bit. It is, of course, possible, since the where and how of this are shrouded in mystery. But there is far less textual evidence for this "second Harrenhal" than there is for the Ashara-Eddard "second Harrenhal."

There is none for either, actually.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

As for before, see above, as for after, I would like to remind that we have yet to see Lord Eddard besmirching his honour for anything else than a family member in danger. Even the presence of Miss Westeros at the right place at the right time still doesn’t mean that he would have had something with her.

I think we've been over the other points and we can agree to disagree on them. The issue I have with the point above, though, is that you are judging teenage (or early-twenties) Eddard by his behavior when he is in his thirties. Would thirty-something Eddard have an affair? Maybe not. Would young Eddard do it? Maybe.

Think about it like this. If Robb Stark had been Lord of Winterfell and husband to his lady of Frey for fifteen years, was a successful war leader from two wars, and in his thirties, would he have been seduced by Jeyne Westerling? Maybe not. But young Robb Stark was, even though he was betrothed, and even though he tried to live up to his father's notions of honor.

Or think about it like this. When King Robert tells Eddard "you were never the boy you were," can't you just picture an older Theon Greyjoy saying the same thing to thirty-something Robb?

[sabrecmc]

I suddenly feel compelled to go back to discuss rubies metaphors and textual symbology :leer:

Ok! So, in GoT, Arya goes searching for Rhaegar's rubies as they cross the Trident. Maybe foreshadowing that Arya will somehow be involved in finding the seventh (i.e, Jon)? I like the RRT (Rhaegar's Rubies Theory, lol).

[Bear Island Bruiser]

I think we've been over the other points and we can agree to disagree on them. The issue I have with the point above, though, is that you are judging teenage (or early-twenties) Eddard by his behavior when he is in his thirties. Would thirty-something Eddard have an affair? Maybe not. Would young Eddard do it? Maybe.

Think about it like this. If Robb Stark had been Lord of Winterfell and husband to his lady of Frey for fifteen years, was a successful war leader from two wars, and in his thirties, would he have been seduced by Jeyne Westerling? Maybe not. But young Robb Stark was, even though he was betrothed, and even though he tried to live up to his father's notions of honor.

Or think about it like this. When King Robert tells Eddard "you were never the boy you were," can't you just picture an older Theon Greyjoy saying the same thing to thirty-something Robb?

Exactly. Good comparison between Robb/Theon & Ned/Robert as well. OK Theon stabs Robb in the back but if the war hadn't come and Theon eventually took over the Iron Isles likelihood is they'd have stayed firm friends.

[Ygrain]

Exactly. Good comparison between Robb/Theon & Ned/Robert as well. OK Theon stabs Robb in the back but if the war hadn't come and Theon eventually took over the Iron Isles likelihood is they'd have stayed firm friends.

Let me take your comparison a little further.

First, Ned is older by several years, and grimmer even as a young man, than Robb is depicted.

Second, Robb actually married the girl he dishonoured instead of the one he was promised to.

Third, to have your analogy complete, Robb would have to:

- bed Jeyne after marrying his Frey

- never own his mistake that he dishonoured her

- take away her child

...

Does this really sound like Robb to you? Does it sound like Ned?

And explain me one thing: why did he take away the child from his mother?

[Blue Steel]

I have suggested here that Ashara and Eddard could very easily have met at Harrenhal at the right time. The textual evidence for this is abundant, starting with the fact that half the realm, including Eddard's wife (who spent a lot of time obsessing about this) thinks the timing is possible and running through the fact that we know Eddard was in the Riverlands (near Harrenhal) at the relevant time and culminating with Barristan Selmy thinking that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenal (he says "at Harrenhal", not "at Harrenhal during the tournament").

Barristan thinks Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal but he never says that Ned was the one who dishonored her. I believe he thinks Brandon dishonored her. Barristan always thinks and speaks highly of Ned to Dany. I doubt that Barristan would consider Ned so "honorable" if Ned was the one who dishonored Ashara.

[MtnLion]

Happened across this interesting bit, yesterday whilst this board was down.

. . . the great tournament at Harrenhal during the year of the false spring, the tourney where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty. That was a much bigger tourney than either Ashford or the Hand's tourney. The IVANHOE format again, champions and challengers, but longer, with more challengers... and with a seven-sided team melee in the ancient style. (A lot happened there at Harrenhal. If I ever wrote the prequel book some readers keep asking for, I could probably set the whole thing during those ten days.)

The bit I liked most was in parenthesis.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Let me take your comparison a little further.

First, Ned is older by several years, and grimmer even as a young man, than Robb is depicted.

Second, Robb actually married the girl he dishonoured instead of the one he was promised to.

Third, to have your analogy complete, Robb would have to:

- bed Jeyne after marrying his Frey

- never own his mistake that he dishonoured her

- take away her child

...

Does this really sound like Robb to you? Does it sound like Ned?

I drew an analogy. I didn't say Eddard and Robb were the same person.

Here is a good way to think about it. In the book, Eddard compares Arya to Lyanna. Arya scoffs at Sansa's romantic ideas of falling in love with a handsome prince. Does this mean Lyanna never fell in love with a handsome prince?

And explain me one thing: why did he take away the child from his mother?

There are a lot of reasons this may have happened. Obviously, the boy could not live with his mother in Dorne and with his father in the North, so he was going to be away from one of his parents at least.

And don't forget that Eddard was sent away from both of his parents as a child, as was Theon. Jon Arryn wanted to send his young son to be fostered on Dragonstone. As for bastards, I haven't seen any indication that Edric Storm's mother moved into Storm's End with him.

But in the case of Ashara Dayne, the simplest explanation would be that a dead woman can't raise a child. If she isn't dead, one theory is that she is Septa Lemore and that she is busy looking after Prince Rhaegar's orphan, Prince Aegon. And of course there are lots of other possibilities.

[EnergeticCrab]

A couple questions. I haven't posted in any of the other R+L=J topics...

1. This has probably been answered, but who sent the kingsguard to the ToJ? They would supposedly be guarding the heir. And that person would know of what transpired.

2. I have a theory about why so many people don't subscribe to the R+L=J theory. Sorry if this is obvious, but overexposure may be the culprit. Due to the fact so many people have access to the communal information on westeros.org, the many asoiaf forums, and tower of the hand, this idea has become 'obvious'. Leading to a lot of disagreement simply because the sheer amount of wide acceptance. Then because the theory seems so universal, skeptics feel like it can't be true because of it's popularity. If it weren't for the internet, I don't think I would have even agreed to the theory, unless I re-read the books a couple times. But having been a one-time reader of the series, it didn't seem likely. It was only through re-reading the books and reading the forums did it all click into place. Thoughts?

[FittleLinger]

A couple questions. I haven't posted in any of the other R+L=J topics...

1. This has probably been answered, but who sent the kingsguard to the ToJ? They would supposedly be guarding the heir. And that person would know of what transpired.

2. I have a theory about why so many people don't subscribe to the R+L=J theory. Sorry if this is obvious, but overexposure may be the culprit. Due to the fact so many people have access to the communal information on westeros.org, the many asoiaf forums, and tower of the hand, this idea has become 'obvious'. Leading to a lot of disagreement simply because the sheer amount of wide acceptance. Then because the theory seems so universal, skeptics feel like it can't be true because of it's popularity. If it weren't for the internet, I don't think I would have even agreed to the theory, unless I re-read the books a couple times. But having been a one-time reader of the series, it didn't seem likely. It was only through re-reading the books and reading the forums did it all click into place. Thoughts?

1 - It was Rhaegar. One of the three (maybe LC Hightower? I don't remember which one exactly, even though I discussed it recently somewhere, duh) was sent by Aerys to go fetch Rhaegar. So only Rhaegar knows in the sense of what you are asking.

2 - Yeah, some people just think it's too mainstream. Which is beyond stupid, and is really childish, but to each his own. Believing something you don't want to believe, because of facts, is an essential part of growing up :P

[Ygrain]

I drew an analogy. I didn't say Eddard and Robb were the same person.

Here is a good way to think about it. In the book, Eddard compares Arya to Lyanna. Arya scoffs at Sansa's romantic ideas of falling in love with a handsome prince. Does this mean Lyanna never fell in love with a handsome prince?

/cough/ You said that Ned might have dishonoured Ashara and used Robb and Jeyne as a supporting point. I'm saying that your analogy is invalid, because even though Robb broke his promise to the Freys, he still chooses a honourable course to make up for his mistake.

There are a lot of reasons this may have happened. Obviously, the boy could not live with his mother in Dorne and with his father in the North, so he was going to be away from one of his parents at least.

And don't forget that Eddard was sent away from both of his parents as a child, as was Theon. Jon Arryn wanted to send his young son to be fostered on Dragonstone. As for bastards, I haven't seen any indication that Edric Storm's mother moved into Storm's End with him.

But in the case of Ashara Dayne, the simplest explanation would be that a dead woman can't raise a child. If she isn't dead, one theory is that she is Septa Lemore and that she is busy looking after Prince Rhaegar's orphan, Prince Aegon. And of course there are lots of other possibilities.

Ashara committed suicide after Ned arrived, not before, so he would be taking a child from his living mother - a newborn, which is entirely different than sending children to be fostered. I do not see how a father, freshly married to someone else on top of it, is the perfect choice to take care of a child so young. However, even if this was an agreement among the Daynes that the child must be sent away and Ashara had no say in it, why never tell Jon? I could understand if Ned didn't want to tell Cat, but why deny Jon his mother's name when he was old enough to know how to shut up? - Ah, sure, Ned could have promised - but the only promises he ever refers to are those to Lyanna, not Ashara or her relatives, he actually never thinks about Ashara at all.

BTW what do you suggest happened with Lyanna's child?

[EnergeticCrab]

1 - It was Rhaegar. One of the three (maybe LC Hightower? I don't remember which one exactly, even though I discussed it recently somewhere, duh) was sent by Aerys to go fetch Rhaegar. So only Rhaegar knows in the sense of what you are asking.

2 - Yeah, some people just think it's too mainstream. Which is beyond stupid, and is really childish, but to each his own. Believing something you don't want to believe, because of facts, is an essential part of growing up :P

Thanks!

[ckal]

Really seems like for this theory (even if true) to have any meaningful impact on the story, Rhaegar and Lyanna being married would need to be confirmed by witnesses.

But even if that happens, who is to say that this will be believed or accepted by the people? I turn your attention to Stannis' attempt at discrediting Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella as monsters of incest and no heir to the Iron Throne, except his attempts were merely brushed off.

The situation would probably have to be perfect, I mean the stars would really have to align, for Jon to ever end up on the Iron Throne.

[FittleLinger]

Really seems like for this theory (even if true) to have any meaningful impact on the story, Rhaegar and Lyanna being married would need to be confirmed by witnesses.

But even if that happens, who is to say that this will be believed or accepted by the people? I turn your attention to Stannis' attempt at discrediting Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella as monsters of incest and no heir to the Iron Throne, except his attempts were merely brushed off.

The situation would probably have to be perfect, I mean the stars would really have to align, for Jon to ever end up on the Iron Throne.

Who said that the only meaningful impact to the story of R+L would be connected to a throne?

[MtnLion]

Really seems like for this theory (even if true) to have any meaningful impact on the story, Rhaegar and Lyanna being married would need to be confirmed by witnesses.

But even if that happens, who is to say that this will be believed or accepted by the people? I turn your attention to Stannis' attempt at discrediting Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella as monsters of incest and no heir to the Iron Throne, except his attempts were merely brushed off.

The situation would probably have to be perfect, I mean the stars would really have to align, for Jon to ever end up on the Iron Throne.

What makes one think that Jon has any desire to sit on the Iron Throne? There is a real danger coming to Westeros, and Jon is aware of it and trying to counter it. As the rest of the kingdom plays its silly games, they will suddenly come face to face with the brewing battle for the dawn. If the only way to succeed in defeating the others is for Jon to take the lead of the realm, via sitting on the Iron Throne, he will reluctantly sit there. In the end, we may learn that it was his proper place, all along, but only the reader need know it, not the realm.

[ckal]

Who said that the only meaningful impact to the story of R+L would be connected to a throne?

What makes one think that Jon has any desire to sit on the Iron Throne? There is a real danger coming to Westeros, and Jon is aware of it and trying to counter it. As the rest of the kingdom plays its silly games, they will suddenly come face to face with the brewing battle for the dawn. If the only way to succeed in defeating the others is for Jon to take the lead of the realm, via sitting on the Iron Throne, he will reluctantly sit there. In the end, we may learn that it was his proper place, all along, but only the reader need know it, not the realm.

What other impact or importance on the story would Jon's parents being Rhaegar and Lyanna have if not connected to the heir of the Iron Throne?

This is merely an objective observation on the subject.

[FittleLinger]

What other impact or importance on the story would Jon's parents being Rhaegar and Lyanna have if not connected to the heir of the Iron Throne?

This is merely an objective observation on the subject.

I don't know, maybe the mystical hero who would bring the balance/defeat others/Song of Ice and Fire? The hero being prophesized to come from Aerys and Rhaella's line? Stark+Targ has a lot more mystical than hereditary meaning.

[ckal]

I don't know, maybe the mystical hero who would bring the balance/defeat others/Song of Ice and Fire? The hero being prophesized to come from Aerys and Rhaella's line? Stark+Targ has a lot more mystical than hereditary meaning.

Sure, that is possible. How possible, we don't know. Much of the PWP theory and info that characters in the series has stated is conjecture, or contradictory. Maester Aemon believed the prince was actually not a male, but a female, a princess - Daenerys, and other signs may point to her as well The wiki has a nice article on The Prince that Was Promised.

But for all of this speculation about vague and possibly false hints at the truth (if there is any truth to PWP or if it will ever come to fruition), from that same PWP article, we have a piece of 'wisdom' from Tyrion:

'Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head."

[MtnLion]

What other impact or importance on the story would Jon's parents being Rhaegar and Lyanna have if not connected to the heir of the Iron Throne?

This is merely an objective observation on the subject.

I thought that I was quite clear that actually being the heir need not matter to the realm, but can matter to those of us who read the story.

Are you suggesting that R + L = J or not? That is the topic of this thread, though we do stray from time to time.